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Discuss.

No shock there, they also got every English team banned for years in the 80's.

Quote from Gaillard before the final:


Maybe playing the final at a ground with turnstiles might have been an idea?

:dontask:

There's a dossier on Liverpool fan's behaviour since 2003?  Have the Liverpool fans (and English fans in general) been the worst fans in this time?

Since 2000 elsewhere in Europe there have been stabbings, killing of policemen, shootings, racial abuse, monkey chanting, players injured by missiles, games abandoned, mass riots - but as these didn't involve English teams they seem to go unpunished and are quickly forgotten.

Look on the bright side, Leeds fans will have to be content with 'worst fans in the Johnstone's Paint Trophy' next season.

Now the back-tracking...

Let's be honest though, Galliard's having to defend himself from the attempts to blame UEFA for the trouble in Athens, when the one support you'd have thought would know better than to rush the gates had done so.

I've no problem with the Liverpool fans (having lived near Anfield for a few years I know a lot of them), but there were a lot of dodgy characters intent on getting into the ground by hook or by crook...

You really have to change your jokes, but then again who else can the Barnsley fans secretly love to support.

I've said it all along :)

We're all secret glory hunters so we tend to jump around a lot amongst the big clubs.  I gave up on Wigan last season and switched to Reading.

There was a small minority of Liverpool fans who were an utter disgrace.  No argument there - they should be ashamed of themselves.

BUT, my brother (who had a ticket) was trying to get into the ground, and they were being filed into a funnel of police in riot gear to metal barriers, manned by two stewards.  The number of people being fed into this area was increasing, and my brother was growing uneasy with build of of the crowd behind him and there were also children in this crowd.  The police were guiding more and more people into this area, quicker than they were being let through at the barriers.  Eventually, the sheer weight of people moving forwards moved the barriers back and so everyone in that area was into the  ground - ticket or no ticket. 

They knew there'd be idiots with no tickets trying to get in (and I don't condone their actions at all), but you'd have thought that the flagship event in European football would be held at a ground with adequate systems in place to protect paying customers and to prevent this sort of thing happening.

My brother said that right from the start, the way they were managing the crowds was terrible - and Istanbul was a million times better in terms of the facilities and the organisation.

I'll be interesting to hear Digger's experience.

Liverpool fans are no worse them most clubs, but when X amount of fans travel to a different country without a ticket your askng for trouble. No excuses you should not travel.

I'm not sure I agree.  No reason not to travel, if you're going to enjoy the atmosphere and behave responsibly with other like-minded fans. 

But I certainly agree that those without tickets shouldn't be trying to get into the stadium.  That's irresponsible - and Liverpool fans in particular should know better.

I don't agree with that, I was in Seville with Celtic & it was fantastic, they estimate that 3 times as many people didn't have a ticket as had one, but they stayed in the squares & parks & watched the game on big screens.

it was that last part that particularly dissapointed me about the scenes in Athens..people have a short memory..they sing the songs and they "remember" every year but when it suits them it goes straight out the window..made me sick.

When you say they, I hope you realise that you're talking to a small minority of the fans?  Also, it has to be recognised that the situation would not have happened had the organisation been adequate for an event of this magnitude and stature.

Also, the actions of the Liverpool fans in Athens is reprehensible, but hardly on the scale as some of the other actions seen by fans across Europe in recent times:

• On February 2 a police officer was killed in Sicily when fans rioted during a derby match between Catania and Palermo.
• On November 24, 2006, a French police officer shot dead a Paris-Saint Germain football fan after being turned on by a mob during racist violence that followed the team's defeat by Israeli side Hapoel Tel-Aviv.
• On Saturday night a referee was attacked on the pitch during an international match between Sweden and Denmark. The game had to be abandoned.
• On September 15, 2004, Anders Frisk was forced to abandon the Champions League match between AS Roma and Dinamo Kiev after he was felled by a lighter thrown from the stands.
• On April 4 this year 12 Manchester United fans ended up in hospital after Italian Ultra hooligans ran riot around the Roma v United Champions League quarter final.

But UEFA feel it necessary to focus on the Liverpool fans as the worst in Europe? Just two years ago, the Liverpool supporters won international acclaim for their exemplary behaviour in Istanbul when not a single Reds fan was arrested. Four years before that, they won a special Uefa award for their outstanding behaviour during the Uefa Cup final in Dortmund.  But now (when action is going to be taken against UEFA by Liverpool regarding UEFA's negligent organisation surrounding the final) they pull out a dossier going back to 2003 as though Liverpool are the core of all that's evil in European football.  Don't be mistaken either - it's not just Liverpool.  Man u, chelsea and other clubs who play in Europe are also targets for UEFA's condemnation. 

Didn't UEFA criticise the Man u fans when they were treated disgustingly in Lille?  Again deflecting the attention towards English fans.

It comes back to what happened in Heysel. English fans will always be blamed for trouble abroad but unlike then they cant kick us out of the CL (or threaten to) becuase we're cash cows and it wont work without us.

Uefa provided a stadium that wasn't sufficient to host a major final. This was stated in a reprt by Liverpool to Uefa one week before the final. LFC said this would happen and Uefa didn't listen.

We have idiot fans as all clubs do after several beers, but Uefa must take control. Simple as that.

what does that really mean these days though?

compared to 20 years ago what are they doing? nothing!

comparatively it's not a very hard hard title to obtain

back in the day you had to graft for that kind of status ::)

To what are you referring?  :dontask:

well the title says "worst in Europe"............... for what?

stealing flags!!!!!......................ooohhhhhhh hardcore.

or the "scuffles" in which.........wait for it....................................."knowone was hurt"  lol, yeah serious turn out.

what i'm saying is being called the worst fans in Europe really doesn't mean anything these days, they'll always be a worst but as the generic behaviour of football supporters continues to slowly improve the barometer for being the worst will change and it will be the supporters who drop the most litter or boo the other team the loudest that will be called the worst.

I think we're in agreement then!

What I'm saying is that there are fans that stab opposition fans, kill the police at the grounds, throw objects at players and referees, chant racist abuse at players.

These fans are far worse.  My point was that Liverpool fans aren't the worst in Europe and therefore don't deserve the 'accolade'.  Same as England fans don't deserve to be branded as hooligans en masse.

The flag thing is a funny one as well.  UEFA claim that it was Liverpool fans taking them all - and a few days after the final many appeared on ebay for sale - not from sellers in England, but in Greece... ;carlocitrone;

UEFA  (U-Turn European Football Association)

http://uk.reuters.com/article/footballNews/idUKL0586007220070605?rpc=401&

(http://www.idealsoftware.com/img/uturn.gif)


Bet this doesn't get the same publicity as the original story though.

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I'm sure it will upset somebody/piss someone off.

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

I dont think they are "the worst in europe" when it comes to hooliganism abroad or at home liverpool are hardly notorious for football violence.

Heysel was down to the behaviour of both sets of fans - absolutely no denying that.  The disaster itself wouldn't have happened had the stadium not been in the state it was, but that doesn't excuse the fan's behaviour one bit.  The Liverpool fans involved in what happened that day are definitely to blame.

If you're including Hillsborough in this, then yes you are wrong.

But isn't that a wider problem with the city, not restricted to football? It seems to have a 'victim mentality' which may well have held it back in the past 20 years when compared the way Manchester/Leeds/Newcastle and others have tried to leave their industrial past behind them.

Others might be better placed to answer this, but I think there is an element of truth in what you're saying about Liverpudlians looking at themselves as 'different' to the rest of the people England.  Maybe it's something to do with the Irish influence in the city's history, and possibly the distance from the ruling government in the 80s?  There is definitely a feeling by many in Liverpool of 'Scouse, not English', and this siege mentality still prevails to some degree.  However, I think it's also something the media like to perpetuate and emphasise beyond the actual reality.

However, I disagree that this is mentality is related to the the football situations Dan was referring to.

As tragic as Hillsborough indeed was, and the errors made by various authorities, surely the bottom line was that there were too many fans without tickets who had travelled and then attempted to get into the ground that started the whole debacle??

Geo

100% categorically no.

Read this:

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm

Can't see how this article can be used as an argument against this.

I wouldn't expect an article by the Hillsborough Justice Campaign to highlight this as a contributory factor.

I remember a member of one group being interviewed shortly after and admitting they had travelled without tickets.

Geo

Read the facts in the reports.  Read about the inadequate turnstiles for the number of ticket holders going into the Leppings Lane end of the ground (where the Liverpool fans were).  Read about how the police opened the gates (and the Superintendent admitted that he lied when he said Liverpool fans kicked a door in to gain access).  Read about how there were no stewards or police to guide the crowds that were let in when they opened the gates - so they did what crowds do - and follow the flow, which was directly into the pen ahead (the pens either side of the central pen had plenty of room in them, just that no one was guided into them).  Read about how there was no one in charge of the police that day who had the necessary experience, and how he admitted he 'froze' when action was required.  Read about how people were left dying needing urgent medical attention that they didn't receive until it was too late.

But you want to blame it on some of the fans who'd had a bit to drink before an FA Cup semi-final?  Imagine that, people having a drink before a football match.  Criminals.  Oh, and the group who were interviewed - was that reported in the sun?

thanks for the link kin a great read.

an awful chain of events, although this article has a biased side to the liverpool fans i think its been proven that west yorkshire police have staged a huge cover up throughout.

it is one where mistakes were made on all sides culminating in a horrendous and unneccessary loss of human life!

im just glad that we learnt so much from hillsborough and like to think that the memory of the 96 that died has helped to save many lives aroung the countries football grounds since.

RIP

Yes, of course any source should be viewed with scepticism, but more than often, people believe what they read in the press (which is why I started this thread in the first place).


Yes, the organisation was shocking, and the cover-up that went on afterwards was disgusting and an insult to the 96 who died and their familes and friends.  What the s*n did after that is well known, and makes me angry - and whenever I hear or see Kelvin MacKenzie I have an unnatural feeling of violence towards the man sorry excuse for a human.

The other people to blame are the hooligans who had plagued football in England.  They were the ones who made the fences necessary - without which, the 96 would still be alive.


We've learned a lot, and safety at grounds has definitely improved.  But why did it take so long?  This wasn't the first disaster at a football ground, and unfortunately it won't be the last.  Hopefully, the stadia in this country are far better now.

Interestingly enough, I think we should re-introduce standing in football grounds here.  Safe-standing areas (not like the terraces of old) can be perfectly safe, but improve the experience for the fans.  Like the ones at Dortmund:

(http://www.yappari.co.uk/wp-content/images/LFC/safe-standing-area.png)

If anyone has the time or the inclination, have a read of the report by the FSF with regards to standing at football matches.  Interesting reading, and made all the more interesting that a Hillsborough survivor has written the forward to the report.

It's a PDF file, and definitely worth a read:  http://www.fsf.org.uk/media/pdfs/safe-standing-report-web.pdf

You can read the foreward here if you don't want to download the whole report: http://tinyurl.com/2jgho4

thanks mate will defo have a read later tonight when i have more time.

must agree i miss the old style terraces, it was all part of the thrill of going to a game.

the shed at chelsea was an awesome sight when packed full.

Take the blinkers off Dan.

I did read all of above, however was merely stating that mistakes were made from all sides. At no time was I ignoring the errors made by the various authorities. The interview I referred to was actually a TV interview, was disappointed that you would even think of me as a Sun reader btw.

Also

But you want to blame it on some of the fans who'd had a bit to drink before an FA Cup semi-final?  Imagine that, people having a drink before a football match.  Criminals.  Oh, and the group who were interviewed - was that reported in the sun?

Where on earth did I say that?

Your opening gambit was to post a good feature then ended with one word - Discuss.

Am merely discussing and do not require you to add to what you think I may have wrote.
Geo

Seriously mate, no blinkers.  I have friends who were there.  I have read lots and lots, from varying sources about the day and what happened.  To say that the bottom line was that there were too many fans without tickets and that caused the  disaster is not only incorrect, but ridiculous.  That's why I thought you might have read about it in the s*n.

Like I said, there was space for the fans in the pens either side.  Why weren't the fans directed into these pens when the gates were opened?  Why were so many things wrong on that day?  If it was down to the fans without tickets, why did the police lie - and why were the rank and file officers instructed to lie in their statements and to the media?  Surely there'd be no need to lie if the police weren't at fault?

What about the people who were still alive after 3:45?  Many more could have been saved.  The bottom line is that those in charge messed up - enormously.

Totally accept what you're saying Dan, and thoroughly enjoyed reading the link. Admit it may have been a bit strong in saying it was the bottom line and not merely an additional factor.

Geo

Fair enough.  I'd say the alcohol was a factor - but they weren't any more drunk than football fans at any other semi-final.  The problem was that the whole focus of the police was on dealing with drunk and 'misbehaving' fans, rather than focusing on the safety of the fans as a whole.  That was the major contributing factor.  Safety was disregarded and the focus was on coming down hard on any trouble.

So in that sense, the hooligans throughout the 80s were truly to blame, that and the criminal negligence of those in charge on the day.

I think we had crossed-wires there.  The fans without tickets was to do with my original post about Athens.  I thought you were referring to Hillsborough, which is where the conversation had drifted on to.

Apologies for that.

I didn't think it was still being debated why Hillsborough happened?

The police began to panic with the kick off looming and so many fans still outside;  so they forced people into the overcrowed sections of the stands. Anyone who supported football around those times knows how clueless the cops were.

You'd be surprised, very surprised.  I nearly resorted to violence a few months back when a Celtic fan (who should know better) told me that what the s*n had printed MUST be based on truth, and therefore the Liverpool fans who were there were responsible for the 96 deaths - and blaming the police is looking for a scapegoat.

Fortunately for him, I managed to walk away before I did something he'd regret.

The Sun printed full page apologies and took back what they had said about the fans being to blame, but I guess people forget this.

The Editor at the time has since repeatedly criticised the appology & seems to be trying to make a career out of his infamy and by saying he was right. He still refuses to face up to any of the Justice for the 96 group though.

There was no front-page apology for 'The Truth' - absolutely and categorically there was no apology on the scale of the blatant lies they told.

Kelvin McKenzie still stands by the filth he printed.  The BBC still pay him to appear on radio shows and he continues to peddle the lies that were told then.