Liverpool Fans - Worst in Europe

[kinboshi]

Liverpool fans are no worse them most clubs, but when X amount of fans travel to a different country without a ticket your askng for trouble. No excuses you should not travel.

I'm not sure I agree.  No reason not to travel, if you're going to enjoy the atmosphere and behave responsibly with other like-minded fans. 

But I certainly agree that those without tickets shouldn't be trying to get into the stadium.  That's irresponsible - and Liverpool fans in particular should know better.

it was that last part that particularly dissapointed me about the scenes in Athens..people have a short memory..they sing the songs and they "remember" every year but when it suits them it goes straight out the window..made me sick.

When you say they, I hope you realise that you're talking to a small minority of the fans?  Also, it has to be recognised that the situation would not have happened had the organisation been adequate for an event of this magnitude and stature.

Also, the actions of the Liverpool fans in Athens is reprehensible, but hardly on the scale as some of the other actions seen by fans across Europe in recent times:

• On February 2 a police officer was killed in Sicily when fans rioted during a derby match between Catania and Palermo.
• On November 24, 2006, a French police officer shot dead a Paris-Saint Germain football fan after being turned on by a mob during racist violence that followed the team's defeat by Israeli side Hapoel Tel-Aviv.
• On Saturday night a referee was attacked on the pitch during an international match between Sweden and Denmark. The game had to be abandoned.
• On September 15, 2004, Anders Frisk was forced to abandon the Champions League match between AS Roma and Dinamo Kiev after he was felled by a lighter thrown from the stands.
• On April 4 this year 12 Manchester United fans ended up in hospital after Italian Ultra hooligans ran riot around the Roma v United Champions League quarter final.

But UEFA feel it necessary to focus on the Liverpool fans as the worst in Europe? Just two years ago, the Liverpool supporters won international acclaim for their exemplary behaviour in Istanbul when not a single Reds fan was arrested. Four years before that, they won a special Uefa award for their outstanding behaviour during the Uefa Cup final in Dortmund.  But now (when action is going to be taken against UEFA by Liverpool regarding UEFA's negligent organisation surrounding the final) they pull out a dossier going back to 2003 as though Liverpool are the core of all that's evil in European football.  Don't be mistaken either - it's not just Liverpool.  Man u, chelsea and other clubs who play in Europe are also targets for UEFA's condemnation. 

Didn't UEFA criticise the Man u fans when they were treated disgustingly in Lille?  Again deflecting the attention towards English fans.

[The Baron]

It comes back to what happened in Heysel. English fans will always be blamed for trouble abroad but unlike then they cant kick us out of the CL (or threaten to) becuase we're cash cows and it wont work without us.

Uefa provided a stadium that wasn't sufficient to host a major final. This was stated in a reprt by Liverpool to Uefa one week before the final. LFC said this would happen and Uefa didn't listen.

We have idiot fans as all clubs do after several beers, but Uefa must take control. Simple as that.

[bolt pp]

what does that really mean these days though?

compared to 20 years ago what are they doing? nothing!

comparatively it's not a very hard hard title to obtain

back in the day you had to graft for that kind of status

[kinboshi]

what does that really mean these days though?

compared to 20 years ago what are they doing? nothing!

comparatively it's not a very hard hard title to obtain

back in the day you had to graft for that kind of status

To what are you referring? 

[bolt pp]

what does that really mean these days though?

compared to 20 years ago what are they doing? nothing!

comparatively it's not a very hard hard title to obtain

back in the day you had to graft for that kind of status

To what are you referring? 

well the title says "worst in Europe"............... for what?

stealing flags!!!!!......................ooohhhhhhh hardcore.

or the "scuffles" in which.........wait for it....................................."knowone was hurt"  lol, yeah serious turn out.

what i'm saying is being called the worst fans in Europe really doesn't mean anything these days, they'll always be a worst but as the generic behaviour of football supporters continues to slowly improve the barometer for being the worst will change and it will be the supporters who drop the most litter or boo the other team the loudest that will be called the worst.

[kinboshi]

I think we're in agreement then!

What I'm saying is that there are fans that stab opposition fans, kill the police at the grounds, throw objects at players and referees, chant racist abuse at players.

These fans are far worse.  My point was that Liverpool fans aren't the worst in Europe and therefore don't deserve the 'accolade'.  Same as England fans don't deserve to be branded as hooligans en masse.

The flag thing is a funny one as well.  UEFA claim that it was Liverpool fans taking them all - and a few days after the final many appeared on ebay for sale - not from sellers in England, but in Greece...

[kinboshi]

UEFA  (U-Turn European Football Association)

http://uk.reuters.com/article/footballNews/idUKL0586007220070605?rpc=401&




Bet this doesn't get the same publicity as the original story though.

[dan]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I'm sure it will upset somebody/piss someone off.

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

I dont think they are "the worst in europe" when it comes to hooliganism abroad or at home liverpool are hardly notorious for football violence.

[kinboshi]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I'm sure it will upset somebody/piss someone off.

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

I dont think they are "the worst in europe" when it comes to hooliganism abroad or at home liverpool are hardly notorious for football violence.

Heysel was down to the behaviour of both sets of fans - absolutely no denying that.  The disaster itself wouldn't have happened had the stadium not been in the state it was, but that doesn't excuse the fan's behaviour one bit.  The Liverpool fans involved in what happened that day are definitely to blame.

If you're including Hillsborough in this, then yes you are wrong.

[AndrewT]

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

But isn't that a wider problem with the city, not restricted to football? It seems to have a 'victim mentality' which may well have held it back in the past 20 years when compared the way Manchester/Leeds/Newcastle and others have tried to leave their industrial past behind them.

[kinboshi]

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

But isn't that a wider problem with the city, not restricted to football? It seems to have a 'victim mentality' which may well have held it back in the past 20 years when compared the way Manchester/Leeds/Newcastle and others have tried to leave their industrial past behind them.

Others might be better placed to answer this, but I think there is an element of truth in what you're saying about Liverpudlians looking at themselves as 'different' to the rest of the people England.  Maybe it's something to do with the Irish influence in the city's history, and possibly the distance from the ruling government in the 80s?  There is definitely a feeling by many in Liverpool of 'Scouse, not English', and this siege mentality still prevails to some degree.  However, I think it's also something the media like to perpetuate and emphasise beyond the actual reality.

However, I disagree that this is mentality is related to the the football situations Dan was referring to.

[Geo the Sarge]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I'm sure it will upset somebody/piss someone off.

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

I dont think they are "the worst in europe" when it comes to hooliganism abroad or at home liverpool are hardly notorious for football violence.

Heysel was down to the behaviour of both sets of fans - absolutely no denying that.  The disaster itself wouldn't have happened had the stadium not been in the state it was, but that doesn't excuse the fan's behaviour one bit.  The Liverpool fans involved in what happened that day are definitely to blame.

If you're including Hillsborough in this, then yes you are wrong.

As tragic as Hillsborough indeed was, and the errors made by various authorities, surely the bottom line was that there were too many fans without tickets who had travelled and then attempted to get into the ground that started the whole debacle??

Geo

[kinboshi]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I'm sure it will upset somebody/piss someone off.

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

I dont think they are "the worst in europe" when it comes to hooliganism abroad or at home liverpool are hardly notorious for football violence.

Heysel was down to the behaviour of both sets of fans - absolutely no denying that.  The disaster itself wouldn't have happened had the stadium not been in the state it was, but that doesn't excuse the fan's behaviour one bit.  The Liverpool fans involved in what happened that day are definitely to blame.

If you're including Hillsborough in this, then yes you are wrong.

As tragic as Hillsborough indeed was, and the errors made by various authorities, surely the bottom line was that there were too many fans without tickets who had travelled and then attempted to get into the ground that started the whole debacle??

Geo

100% categorically no.

Read this:

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm

[Geo the Sarge]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I'm sure it will upset somebody/piss someone off.

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

I dont think they are "the worst in europe" when it comes to hooliganism abroad or at home liverpool are hardly notorious for football violence.

Heysel was down to the behaviour of both sets of fans - absolutely no denying that.  The disaster itself wouldn't have happened had the stadium not been in the state it was, but that doesn't excuse the fan's behaviour one bit.  The Liverpool fans involved in what happened that day are definitely to blame.

If you're including Hillsborough in this, then yes you are wrong.

As tragic as Hillsborough indeed was, and the errors made by various authorities, surely the bottom line was that there were too many fans without tickets who had travelled and then attempted to get into the ground that started the whole debacle??

Geo

100% categorically no.

Read this:

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm

Can't see how this article can be used as an argument against this.

I wouldn't expect an article by the Hillsborough Justice Campaign to highlight this as a contributory factor.

I remember a member of one group being interviewed shortly after and admitting they had travelled without tickets.

Geo

[kinboshi]

I wasn't going to reply to this thread because I'm sure it will upset somebody/piss someone off.

I dont think that it is any coincidence that it always seems to be Liverpool fans that are involved in 'disasters'. Everytime it is apparently the police's fault,Uefa's fault,the ground's fault etc etc. Why dont Liverpool fans ever blame themselves??.

I dont think they are "the worst in europe" when it comes to hooliganism abroad or at home liverpool are hardly notorious for football violence.

Heysel was down to the behaviour of both sets of fans - absolutely no denying that.  The disaster itself wouldn't have happened had the stadium not been in the state it was, but that doesn't excuse the fan's behaviour one bit.  The Liverpool fans involved in what happened that day are definitely to blame.

If you're including Hillsborough in this, then yes you are wrong.

As tragic as Hillsborough indeed was, and the errors made by various authorities, surely the bottom line was that there were too many fans without tickets who had travelled and then attempted to get into the ground that started the whole debacle??

Geo

100% categorically no.

Read this:

http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm

Can't see how this article can be used as an argument against this.

I wouldn't expect an article by the Hillsborough Justice Campaign to highlight this as a contributory factor.

I remember a member of one group being interviewed shortly after and admitting they had travelled without tickets.

Geo

Read the facts in the reports.  Read about the inadequate turnstiles for the number of ticket holders going into the Leppings Lane end of the ground (where the Liverpool fans were).  Read about how the police opened the gates (and the Superintendent admitted that he lied when he said Liverpool fans kicked a door in to gain access).  Read about how there were no stewards or police to guide the crowds that were let in when they opened the gates - so they did what crowds do - and follow the flow, which was directly into the pen ahead (the pens either side of the central pen had plenty of room in them, just that no one was guided into them).  Read about how there was no one in charge of the police that day who had the necessary experience, and how he admitted he 'froze' when action was required.  Read about how people were left dying needing urgent medical attention that they didn't receive until it was too late.

But you want to blame it on some of the fans who'd had a bit to drink before an FA Cup semi-final?  Imagine that, people having a drink before a football match.  Criminals.  Oh, and the group who were interviewed - was that reported in the sun?