blonde poker forum

 David Singer went all in in the WSOP with a pair and a flush draw.
 
 slight favourite over his oppos top pair.

 his opponent took his mobile out his pocket and pushed the buttons.

 apparently if you do anything with your phone at the table your hand is dead , so technically this guys hand is dead.

 Singer asked the dealer what he was going to do ? his opponent , sensing Singer did'nt want a call , called.

 the dealer called over the floor man and he ruled that the hand plays.

 so Singer was knocked out because of a WSOP official not backing up what is clearly in the rules.

 http://youtube.com/watch?v=olgvDTuqFys

 does he have a case for a refund or another crack though ? > thats another question.

no, angle shooting and gave the oppo the info to call himself.

As it was reported in the live-update the hole cards had been dealt, and the player's phone rang and he picked it up and stopped it ringing and then put it down immediately.

Not sure exactly what the rule is here, but it looks to me like the common sense ruling was applied.

Saying that, why have your phone switched on at the table in the first place?

The actual rule refers to using a mobile phone.  Singer's opponent was clearly not doing this.  According to tournament officials he turned off the ringing phone and no more.  Singer should grow up.

I think if there's a rule you can't use mobile phones at the table then they should stick to that and if there isn't a rule there should be.

FFS, looking at your phone during a hand! That's so ridiculously open to abuse that it should be fairly obvious you aren't allowed to do it.

If you want to use your phone, walk away from the table and switch it on(seeing as it's off when you're playing surely, no one wants a cacophony of stupid ringtones interrupting play)

I think singer got ul...I'm not saying his opponent was pulling a fast one, but having a blanket rule of no checking your phone at the table makes sense and I think the TD should have ruled in his favour.

I think the TD should have ruled in his favour IF there was a blanket rule in place.  I also agree that a blanket rule should be in place.

However, it seems that there isn't a blanket rule, and so the TD ruled correctly.

What's the rule in the UK with regards to phone use at the table?  I bet there isn't a consistent rule is there - and each casino has its own version?

Apparently they checked the security tapes, checked the guys phone, and confirmed it was impossible for him to have read any message. He picked the phone up to turn it off.

How many of us have been at a wedding or funeral and a phone has gone off midway through the service?

Singer comes across as a bit of a crybaby in the interview.

The same with virtually all casino rules in the UK. We should be pushing for stricted guidelines.  The best i ever saw was a guy say "i call" to what he thought was a £80 bet. When he found out it was £250 he changed his mind, bizarrely, his opponent was ok with him not calling and he was allowed to fold.

TD making a ruling in favour of common sense - sounds like a strong TD to me, not a weak one.

According to a post on 2p2

"Surveillance cameras confirmed that, A) the player in question did not look at his phone, and B) his only action was to silence the phone's ringer and quickly put it back into his pocket."

Repeat - he did not "use" his phone and did not break the rules.  

Singer quite obviously realised that he was in danger of elimination and attempted to win the hand by default.  In doing so he gave away the weakness of his hand and got called.  

  

Fair play then, if he hadn't broken the rules then the ruling was right.

However I do think there's a strong argument that even having your phone on at the tables should be outlawed except in exceptional cases.

I'm not the kind of person to cheat at the tables but I can think of some very easy ways to get an edge at the tables simply by having my phone on.

Getting someone to ring you when you should call for example...

I see what you did there... although that would assume someone within viewing distance could see the play, and could make the decision better than the player at the table. 

 ;carlocitrone;

you can tell he's an american just by looking at security tapes?

Humour aside...You can check the phone and see it takes a minimum of three key presses to access a new message, and check the tape and see he only made one key press.

But you don't need to read a text or answer the phone to have information conveyed to you.

Which is why they should have a better rule in place. 

Your phone could play

 "she'll be coming round the mountain" if he's on a draw,

"baby-cakes" (sung by 3 of a kind) if he's got a set,

"touch me" by Sam Fox for a big pair

or "Gold" Spandau ballet for Top,Top...... TPTK.

 

The rule is slightly ambiguous because it is along the lines of if a player is on their mobile their hand is dead. It comes down to an interpretation of 'on'.

In the Razz tournament David Oppenheim was selecting music off his phone and the dealer mucked his hand for it (he wasn't happy). Later on he actually was texting someone and the dealer just gave him a warning and allowed him to continue, so it's down to interpretation.

I don't think anybody would go along with switching it off as being covered by this though, do you?

I can't be bothered to retype so thats largely just copied and posted what my response was in the live update

lol. here we go. there'll be another 10 of these.

It's the ACE OF SPADES, THE ACE OF SPADES.

As it was, the whole issue of the phone may have provoked a tell in itself. You can press a button to make it sound like it's ringing. The ultimate in angle-shooting. Press one button to make it ring, another to stop it, knowing that you can't get punished for doing that but knowing that your opponent may seek to get a ruling.....showing he has doesn't really want a call........genius!

Two hearts, two hearts just to hold love.
Two hearts, two hearts just to hold your lo-o-o-o-o-ve.  ;whistle;

Clear angle shot.  Love to see his reaction if he hit a spade/4/5.

You don't need a phone either - two coughs means call.  If I pick my nose it means fold.

He didn't 'push the buttons' as such as take out the phone to turn it off. That was done I think as a courtesy to the rest of the table. If Singer had hit, this wouldn't have developed into a row.

The TD is a guy called Steve, who was also in charge of the Monte Carlo EPT final. He's someone who has the respect of all the players and certainly isn't weak.

and if that were the case why are they standing on the rail letting someone else play?

If they are so good at reading people then they'd be playing in the tournament themselves as opposed to phoning their mates when they should call.

I think the TD made a good common sense decision here.

At the end of the day the rule is that you cannot use a mobile phone at the table. The guy simply stopped it from ringing.

He did not make/answer a phone call
He did not read/send a text message

So In my opinion he did not "use" his phone.

Jesus..the guy turns his phone off and that's all. Noone can argue that he should be thrown out (unless his ring-tone was by the Spicegirls)

On a UK note...Friday at Stanley the computerised announcement asked everyone to turn their phones off and said "Use of a mobile phone is not allowed"...I saw 2 guys at my table on their mobiles having a (very trivial) conversation within 5 minutes of that announcement and of course nothing was done. Only a tenner rebuy obviously but it's a shame people like that don't have the decency to switch their phones off when they have been asked to. That's the thing that pisses me off about mobiles.

From reading the above, it sounds like David Singer was angle-shooting by trying to get the other guys hand declared dead.

LOL, exactly, it's stupid.

I have some sympathy with David Singer and don't believe it is an angle shoot.
Having played a number of the early wsop events it is clear that different floor persons and dealers imposed different rulings in the same situations.
This is so frustrating as a player. However, with regard to mobile phones, I found rulings to be standard during the first 2 weeks. On every single occasion a player had a mobile phone
in their hand when they also had cards, then their hand was declared dead. Everone was aware of the rule as it is was announced before every single tournament.
Unfortunately a situation came up which I feel makes a mockery of the floor people/TD's. With 11 players left in the $2500 event I was at a table where the button moved all in.
The small blind dwelled for 5 minutes during which the button took out his phone and started to punch buttons for a few minutes. The small blind muttered `is his hand dead', shook his head and folded.
The big blind did likewise. Because this was such a crucial stage of the tournament 2 floorpeople where watching events. After the hand was over I asked the dealer and the floorstaff why the all in player's
hand was not declared dead.They all stated that they were not aware the guy was on the phone and that he did not answer a call. I and all the other players laughed in amazement. His hand should clearly have been declared dead which would have been a terrible way to end the tournament but the guy did the most stupid thing imaginable. I may be seen as a trouble causer and angle shooter by questioning how the situation was handled but on another occasion someone will have their hand correctly ruled as dead. This inconsistency in the rules when deep in a tournament is not common sense it is total fudging and a lack of respect for the tournament and players. As a player all we ask for is consistency in decisions at all times of a tournament.
Most of this can be achieved by the correct training of floor staff and dealers by tournament directors/officials. In my experience only the Bellagio card room here in Vegas has achieved this to any sort
of reasonable standard.

Nice post. Personally, if it was me, I wouldn't have complained as that's not how I want to stay in the competition. However, it shouldn't be my responsibility as a player, the dealer, and subsequently the tournament director, should be making the observation and ruling and maintaining the consistency of which you speak.

From what I understand, Dave Singer's still moaning about it and asking for a refund or to be put in Day 1D. That's what you get when you mess with a lawyer.

I think your missing the point of the rule here. If the player is "all in" and can make no further action, he cannot gain any advantage or information from using the phone. He shouldn't be messing about with hes phone at this stage as it's disrespectfull to the other players, but thats all it is.
To declare a playes hand dead, when they are all in would be plain wrong.

 but if the rules is no phones at the table , no phoning , no texting , no touching , then a TD ruling against the rules is weak.

 there are rules and there is common sense , unfortunately the grey area is in between.

 so why have rules if they bend them for the sake of common sense ?

That's the thing though - that isn't the rule (as far as I know).  It probably should be, but it seems there is a grey area.

Anyone know exactly what the rule with regards to phones is, and could they post it on here?

I pretty much already did Kin...


... but if you want an exact quote:-

(www.worldseriesofpoker.com)

 To me this seems to mean talking or texting, but because Americans have a problem explaining themselves clearly they've left it ambiguous but If somebody told me they were 'on the phone' I would assume they were talking on it, not just handling it.

I was after the exact rule - but it seems that it is greyer than a grey thing in Manchester, on a grey winter evening.  Definitely open to interpretation.

A ha! However - this is how it was reported in the live updates -


It seems to me a blatant angle shoot based on hoping the officials would go for what he sees as a literal interpretation of the rules (not that a literal interpretation of ambiguous rules is technically possible), but they went for the commonsense approach instead.

However, if they were going for a 'literal' interpretation then he still doesn't have a case as the rule clearly states, "...when the dealer delivers the first card from the deck...". As his opponent was not on his phone at this point this rule, in the strictest sense, isn't applicable. QED David Singer is just a big whiny baby.

So you can use your phone and make a call when the second card is dealt?

:dontask:

This is what comes of having Americans draw up rules - they clearly should have got a British lawyer to do it, then nobody would  have been able to understand them but at least they would be specific. :)

My impression like I said is that it is meant to say you can't talk or text while playing, but the way they have worded it is just so hazy.

Where is the APAT and their uniform set of rules when you need them?  ;whistle;

(p.s. what is their rule for mobiles at the table?)

tis ok, i found it......

53. A player who wants to use a mobile phone must step away from the table.

Or?  :dontask:

You can have them, as long as they don't get in the dealer's way... (http://www.growingtreetoys.com/images/products/sm/008618.jpg)

Actually, I have no idea - but if I was writing the rules, I wouldn't allow them to be touched at the table during a hand, otherwise the player's hand is dead.

I'd also say that if they have an annoying ringtone and this can be heard by others, that the player should receive a 10-minute ban (20-minutes if it's the crazy frog).

IMHO its quite simple..........just turn your phone to vibrate/silent, wait for the end of the hand then step away from the table. Thereby ensuring no ugly ringtones and no distractions to the other players at the table.
In response to the OT it would appear to be clearly angle shooting by David Singer and all this nonesence about showing weakness before the player called his allin is rubbish because by all accounts David Singer stated when interviewed that the player in question did not speak English so clearly he is after either another shot at glory or a refund of 10k both of which should IMO be denied him.

And just in case there was any doubt that he doesn't have a leg to stand on, another WSOP rule is:

www.worldseriesofpoker.com

I don't think this applies in this case, but even if the player on the phone was technically breaking the no phone rule then this would overrule it.

I agree.  That's what the rule should be.  But what punishment is enforced if someone's phone rings whilst they're at the table?  Should their hand be declared dead?


Agreed.

If the rules state all phones to be on silent then clearly the hand must be ruled dead...........10 minute penalty IMO would be fair as long as its written into the rules...........the distraction of mobile phones is on a par with the F word to some players.

F****** petrols. Cant run a comp to save their lives.

Phones in the UK? All depends if I like the geezer in a cash game. If he's a fish and the players want him to stay at the table, he could have a bloody conference call for all I care.

Comps though, it all depends what Mickey Mouse TD is in place at the time.

Not exactly the same but the other week when i was playing in a £30 freezeout tournement i was running low on chips and moved all in with a pair of nines, all but one guy folded, he sat accross from me for a couple of minutes contemplating what to do, then he lifted his cards up an showed them to the player at the side of him, i said that was'nt allowed but they protested it made no difference as he had'nt told him whether to call or not, they got away with it! Obviously gave away that i did nt want to be called. Eventually when he called he had Qs 8s. Flop came  Aspades Js 2s. Not been back there since.

most card rooms i know have a rule where if your cards are exposed then you can only call or fold - in this case these are his only two options anyway and provided he didn't receive any help from the person he showed his hand to then i can see why the decision was made that way. If it was me though i'd warn the player that if he did it again he'd receive a penalty.

p.s. if i've got 9's and i'm short stacked, all in and my opponent is thinking about it and showing his cards to his next door neighbour - i'd want a call every time :)