blonde poker forum

I got HU at my local casino last night. I was marginally up and offered a 50-50 split of the top 2 (£375 & 190).

I rejected and got up to 60k to 30k in chips, when again the deal was offered. Again, naturally I declined. Later on I was 30-60 in chips - and again the same deal was offered!!!

Very tempting, but I decided to turn it down as:

a. I still felt I could win.
b. I was really enjoying the game, which was being played out in a really good spirit (the final 4 players sat together for 2 hours).

I ended up blowing it and coming away with second place and £190. As I said I was really enjoying the game AND, more importantly, I think I have had another slant on playing heads up from my opponent.

I'm usually pretty good HU (Claw will probably be laughing after taking e apart the other night), but I felt I learnt a thing or 2 from this chap.

4 questions:

1. What situations do you accept deals in? (I currently have NO, NEVER EVER deal policy)
2. Do you think that losing can sometimes provide a valuable lesson that outweighs the financial rewards of winning?
3. Is deal making a vital skill to be incorporated into bankroll management (something I religiously follow)?
4. Am I being naieve by never EVER accepting deals?

As always, many varied thoughts and opinions appreciated and greatly looked forward to!!!!

In my opinion, YES, that's an error. Bankroll Management comes above every single other factor. By miles. Unless of course, you are sponsored, or a nipper. The nippers never deal, either, why should they, they are freerolling!

Chili did a deal at Notts on Tuesday, & netted £575. You cannot begin to imagine how important that £575 is to her. You need to cover costs first, the rest is bonus. Not a popular view, but it's my view, & you did ask. And, with only a half-decent game, I've survived on the Circuit for a few years now, & never borrowed a penny.

Sod that.

As Tony G says...

"I've got the big heart!"

Would I deal --

Sometimes it depends on the number of people in the chop and the relevent percentages in chip stacks. However I am with Tikay on this one, if you deal you will take away more than if you were next out (otherwise why deal ???), and fiscal prudence is paramount (to me anyway).

More often than not I will accept a deal......

I used to be anti deal in a big way.

But as soon as I won my first live MTT outright, I have been incllined to do deals when there is no play left in the tournament - Usually taking almost 2nd place money anyway.

At the end of the day, winning is great, BUT money is more important - for those that need it!

Each to their own I say.

It has nothing to do with "heart", as well you know Sir! Lack of ability maybe, yes, but I just wanna play poker, & to live that life, first I have to survive. Many a far better player than me has gone skint because of this "I'm Billy Big Dick & I don't do Deals" mindset.

In a word...No!

The whole purpose of this game is money. So missing out on money here and now because it MAY provide you with an opportunity to get money at some point in the future is a wafer thin philosophy in my book. I am with Tikay and the voice of experience on this one.

I have never offered a deal playing poker...maybe because it may give you a slight psycological disadvantage if the deal is refused...or probably because I'm not fussed either way. But if a fair deal is offered I will always agree because of one undeniable factor....LUCK! You have gambled to get into a position to take home some good money. So why gamble with that money and confront lady luck head-on just because your ego thinks..."I can clean these loosers clocks..yeah baby"

I have contacted The royal Bank of Scotland and they confirm that me thinking I'm the best wont pay my mortgage.

I had a simalar thing happen to me a few weeks ago at Walsall. I hardly ever play live, on average maybe only once every 6-8 weeks or so.

 It was a £50 one rebuy or add on. There were only 34 runners so a nice little field. Prizes were £940 for 1st, £510 for 2nd and £280 for 3rd.

 In Walsall, as I am sure is probably the same with most card rooms, everybody else knew each other but as I dont play that often I was the "outsider". Anyway we got 3 handed I had 75,000 of the 135,000 in play when the one guy turned around and asked for an equal 3 way chop. This meant I would take just over 2nd place money, about £575.

I rejected the deal without thinking about it. Within a few hands we are HU. Again the same guy offered a deal. I still had 75,000 he had 60,000. I wouldve collected £725. Now this was more tempting but I had already played this guy off a few pots on the final table and managed to get him all in, 4 handed, when I had A7 v his 57 and he got lucky, he then said I played it badly ????????? I was in the SB him BB I limped he raised and I set him in and he called.(Thought I played it OK but never mind, I limped from the SB because everytime someone limped on his BB he raised.)

As I said £725 each, so I thought for a sec and said I will take £725 you take £700 and we leave £25 for the valets, at this he got quite funny with me and started going on about Im not arguing over £12.50 each lets just play.

I thought fine, dont mind that. 1st hand he pushed all in I had 88 and called he had J9 and hit a 9 on the turn. next hand it was all over and I came 2nd. I dont regret for one minute not doing the deal as I felt I was possibly better than him, maybe I shouldnt of called with 88 but I did not think I was being unreasonable, maybe he got funny because I was not a regular, I dont know.

This may be a bit odd, but I may hold the record for doing the most Deals in Circuit Tournament Poker, I've done scores of them in festivals, literally, & hiundreds in non-Fessie Events. Even Online, I used to "deal" regularly in $500 & $1,000 SNG's on 'Stars.  But I have never once asked for a deal. If offered, & it's half-sensible, I rarely refuse. Money in the bank.

When I was working, I had a big sign on my wall.

Turnover is Vanity, Profit is Sanity, Cash is King

Mine said

"Never trust a man whose trousers are more expensive than his shoes"

I like it because it rhymes

I quite happy to deal but only on my terms and when i think a deal is +ev for me, I recently chopped a tournament with £2000 left in play i was the shortie and was offered an even chop, anybody who doesn't want to deal here doesn't like money IMO.

Dan the guy you were heads up with, sounds like an idiot and the call with 88 must be a good one surely.

Tikay you really are the deal king, chopping up sng's online takes it to a new level. Did stars assist the deal process, I have heard they will if requested even in sng's.

On that subject i really like the system party have for final table deals where basically the players can barter and all be involved in the process, wow i just said something good about party which didn't involve mentioning how soft the games were.

probably a daft question but whats a nipper?

Stars would help the Deal process, but in fact we did it amongst ourselves.

There was only a limited number of players regularly playing the $500 & $1,000 SNG's, & many of us knew each other, via these SNG's really, & some I knew personally. Johan (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=604) Storakers (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=604), Bo Scheisdt (sp?). Mark (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=648) Bartlog (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=648), etc, & we had pretty much reached a point where we pre-agreed that if any of that "set" ended up Heads-Up, we'd do an even chop, irrespective of chip stacks, as the Blinds by that stage were unplayable. Previously, I'd have a standard $100 or $200 Last Longer with Mark & Johan, but the Heads-Up Chop worked better. If you played a lot of these, as I used to, at $500 & $1,000 a pop, it was just common sense.

The 'Stars "Transfer Funds" facility is superb, & we just used that, & obviously, we trusted each other, & I never once got shafted.

I actually got an e-mal from 'Stars one day, telling me they'd discovered collusion on these SNG's, & they sent me $900! It goes without saying that none of our "group" of regulars ever undulged in soft-play.

A bizarre coincidence arose in 2005. I was playing the WSOP $1,500, & 10 tables out, I found myself on a table with no less than four of my regular "online" mates from these SNG's. Me, a Dutchman, a Swede, and an Aussie. Small world, eh? I think John (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=212) Gale (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=212) cashed as well, & Marcel (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=642) Luske (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=642) was 10th, (I only went so deep because he kept doubling me up!) & Erik (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=545) Seidel (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=545) was 5th or 6th. I shared a table with John (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1071) Juanda (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1071), & I thought he was quite exceptional, perhaps the best I've ever seen. My only WSOP Event, ever, & I loved every moment of it.

Sorry, I'm rambling here.

probably a daft question but whats a nipper?

In poker, one who "nips" you, or borrows money from you to play an Event, without, usually, much intention of repaying it promptly, if at all. There are way too many of them right now, & they play all the big Events, & quite shamelessly go round all the players before asking for a "loan". When they make a Major Final, it's comical to watch the "Rail" cheering them on - thus hoping they might get back some of the money they have loaned! A Big-Name player won a huge amount recently, but only paid out 50p in the £.....!

IMO the best tournament player alive!!

And yes i would do a deal straight away, i never would have in the past but i think that was just undeserved arrogance and naievity when i first started playing.

When i started reaching a few FT's in the Cardiff Grosvenor tourneys i relied on making deals as like TK pretty much says about his tourney's i never arrived there with a lot of chips so would grind it out til i was in a position (maybe 4 handed to get a chop, even 50 quid more as a student made a difference to my life lol).

Best chop ive had in terms of chip counts was in the friday grosvenor cardiff shootout tourney where i reached HU and the guy (who probably had a 4 to 1 cl) wanted it over as was knackered- i think he was scared- and said he'd split it 50/50 so was chuffed to bits with that.

As has been previosuly said unless your're sponsored, and i somehow think i never will be lol, then you have to do whats +ev for you in the long term and deals are part and parcel of this!

I miss live poker!

IMO the best tournament player alive!! (John (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1071) Juanda (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1071)).

I wont bore you with the many of the plays I saw him make, but he's exceptional, & a nice man as well.

Twice, he Limped on my Blind, & the board came raggy raggy Paired - I recall 3-3-J on one occasion. I checked, he bet, I called or check-Raise to represent the 3, he pushed. And, of course, I Passed! OK, I'm a shit bluffer, but he really was special, & I had him covered in chips at the time, so if he was wrong, he was dead.

Then I actually flopped a set, same routine, he Passed!

Thats the difference between a good player and a GREAT player - The ability to read situations and lay down monster hands when the KNOW they are beat.

Posted by: dan

Had to reply to this one because I know this chap and he recounted the very same scenario to me the following night at Walsall. He's a good guy. I think a straight chop is the way to go here because nitpicking over the odd £25 is going to rankle most people. It's as if you're determined to get the psychological upper-hand no matter how petty that might be.

You were quite right to reject the 3-way chop. Who on earth had the cheek to propose that?

But when you get to HU the straight chop is in order if offered. Why? Well because if you don't deal now you will be risking £215 to win £215 on the fragile premise that
Now if there is bags of play in the game then ok....but what happens here is that you're all-in next hand. Not exactly a HU encounter where the cream of skill is rising to the top...it's just plain gamble.

Take the deal and put the money on red or black if that's your bag.

By the way....Phil Helmuth is the best tournament player imo....and I have evidence to prove it!

I know you've got an excellent record and are without a doubt a quality winning player but don't you have about 43526328746262 different jobs, a pension and a share portfolio to fall back on before you would need to resort to borrowing money?

Well Lee, your memory must be failing, as you made a deal with MickyP after knocking me out the night before the APAT event in Cardiff (which you won as well!)

Personally, I feel too many deals go on and people miss out on the opportunity to play heads up. I would want to get as much practice as I could. It could pay dividends if I ever manage to play in a prestigious tournament and make the final table, such as the WSOP main event. (Well I can dream, can't I?)

On a now defunct online site which I used to play on regularly, dynamitepoker, they had deal making facilities, which made it rather unique in that respect. Being such a small site affiliated with another poker forum, everyone knew everyone else, including the pit boss who ran the site. I was known as being a tough opponent who wouldn't make deals. I remember one game where one guy suggested I take first, as I had a massive chip lead and was favorite to win anyway, and the other two split second and third prizes equally. Naturally, I agreed to that, but most of the time I rarely made deals. Bear in mind that these weren't big games and only for a few dollars.

P.S. I found your stories on this thread very interesting Tikay, esp. about the $1000 sit and goes. I hope to be at that level one day, although I've just dropped down levels significantly. I'm using Jesus' Ferguson's bankroll challenge method to instill some bankroll discipline. It seems to be working so far :)

I do a deal if I like the other players. One time it was 8-handed, but it was a really nice bunch and we were all having a nice time. Actually, for the cameraderie as we all physically 'cashed' made it easily worth it. A regular totally blew up at me, finger waving 'why the hell you deal, you could beat them, blah blah'. In fact, you know that that late in the show you're not that far from getting back to being the low stack.
I think for many people it's a psychological question: having to play for so long and have got so far all for no money (most deals I've been in have added to the normal number of players paid out). Or the fear of busting out and thinking 'if I'd only made a deal.......'.
But such emotions are no basis on which to make a decision......

Ahh, yes, that is true. Though the Shares have dived this week, and I feel guilty abouot using the Pension, being so young & nubile.

And I'm not so much a quality winning player, as a consistent & I hope competent chopper-upper.

I'm not sure I've ever won more than one or two un-chopped Tourneys at the Fessie Level, but the Stats say otherwise. Gotta love stats. ;)

I would deal if the chips were 35-65 against me, even if i thought i was much much better than him/her, but have never been in that situation so wouldnt know for sure...

I'm quite a fan of chopping it and leaving something to play for myself.

 Aspades

My Pennies worth is....Always do deals ...If

 you want lots of friends in and around the game.

You will always have,,, just about, enough money to play with...week to week.

You can go on week after week , month after month , year after year grinding
it out on the tourney circuit....surviving but not exactly "Living"

You may from time to time need a par time job just to cover the tough times.

But if you derive pleasure from this type of scenario....do deals.

If on the other hand...

You don't crave friendship or the adulation of others..

If you don't want to be pestered by the so called "Nippers"

If you can stand criticism for refusal to deal..

And if one day you truly believe that you will win a decent size tourney IE life changing amount because in spite of your refusal to do deals and loss of immediate financial gain you saw the big picture and your game generally improved from all the hours of short handed and heads up play...so now as you find yourself heads up in the biggest tournament of your life you know your games up to the challenge ...then

...............Don't do deals.

Either way respect the other players views if they are different from your own
then.... you will at least have the respect of your fellow players and at the end of the day...... that is possibly worth winning.

The decision is yours...


 :dontask:

I tried a deal once in a HU KO live tourney

the TD wasnt impressed at all

as it was round 1.............

Usually no deal, but after being offered the deal when 50-50 then 60-30 it's difficult not to be interested at 30-60

I like doing deals. If I can take 2nd place money or better in a chop then I'll agree every time at the level I play. I've had players ask me why I don't fancy myself to win outright but for me that's a false question ...whether I think I'm a better or worse player than my opponents is pretty irrelevant as I've never been in a comp that allowed me the scope to 'play' when shorthanded or headsup...when I play a comp I'm trying to get paid so if I can ensure that and may be play for a little extra then that suits me.

The WSOP argument doesn't really add up; when you get shorthanded you're already quids in to the tune of over £1m. 

Of course it does. OK, when we both make the final table of the WSOP 2008 main event, I'll let to take one million if you let me have first place of eight million, plus all the plaudits, advertising, social functions for the next year, etc.

When it comes to doing deals, EVERYONE has a price.  In this case you are talking about £185 extra, or £92.50 each.  If that makes a big difference to your circumstance or if there are other reasons (e.g. you want to go to bed and go to work the next morning) then dealing is fine.

If £92.50 makes no difference to you and you want to play on, that's fine too.

However, with so many STT's and HU tables available, nowadays the concept of playing on "for the practice" doesn't need to apply.

If your opponent is sane enough to have a rough idea of h/u hand values and when to shove, it is unlikely that you have more theoretical +EV than accepting even money when you have a 2:1 chip defecit.

I always think Ungar had it right though...  "you wanna do a deal with me?  I will tell you what we are gonna do.  Let's put both prizes together and play for the lot!"

I heard that deal mentioned in Barcelona 2 years ago in the omaha final. The guy who suggested it went on to loose - but the guy who won turned down that deal lol

I was offered a deal once I refused it ....then he called my all in with  Ks 9d ....sigh...off for another lie down  ;reallyamsorry;

I won't tell you how good i was getting in on the deal either.

I never do deals online, but am usually up for one live.

The reason being is that if you are a regular at that casino, or at least play a lot with the people involved, it might ensure you a favourble deal in the future.

I once did a 3 way deal at a final of a small freezeout where I was the chip leader, first prize was only about £500 anyway and I took about £380. About 6 monhs later I found myself the short stack in the final four and the chip leader was one of the guys I dealt with previously. I ended up getting £2000, only £150 less than the eventual winner and I cant help but think that the previous deal influenced this one positivley.

Online you are unlikely to find yourself in that situation again, what with the amount of players at any given poker room, but live it makes good business sense to 'network' in this way.

If your livelihood depends on your poker income then I think there is no question that Bankroll Management is paramount and deals will nearly always be a good thing to agree to.

But if poker is only a hobby I don't think its that simple. In this case I'd agree that it all comes down to price - if the extra amount you'd guarantee from a deal is equivalent to a couple of months wages then I'd go for it, but if it was only a couple of weeks worth then I don't see the point.

I've only been in a position to be offered a deal once, but I turned it down because I thought I'd rather get the live heads up practice and I like first places in my records, the extra couple of hundred quid I ended up missing out on just means that I could afford to play slightly less poker afterwards - but as I don't derive an income from poker then missing out like this isn't going to make a difference to me.

Anything that removes the need to play heads-up has to be a good thing!

 ;djinn;

Interesting thread.

I received a measure of both positive and negative comment from the rail last year at the Gros Grand Prix over one of the deals that was done. I was quietly mulling over the numbers and having a scribble when the two players sat next to me asked what i was scribbling/calculating/thinking - and before a few minutes had passed a payout restructure/saver deal was done for £10k each, two tables out. Since that time it has been raised with me many times....

My position ( and defence is ) as follows :
(1) If deals make sense to those involved, then do them. Don't pressure others nor give in to others pressure. Long live, and respect to, the veto that we all have.
(2) Payout structures.... do we really all like them ? Aren't they rather top heavy, especially in what are the "larger" UK events ? Do we like making the third day of a major event and potentially not even getting our investment back ? Are prize structures sometimes more suited to the marketing dept than to the players ?
(3) Preserve the game. This is the point for which the Grand Prix Deal attracted most criticism, save from the guy that was low stack who thought it must be an early Xmas...but we can debate how much it changed the game as there was lots of money still to play for... In principle though deals should not turn the game on its head. Chip leader(s) beware.
(4) What goes around comes around. We all like to think that we are going to win that final table, but we are amongst our peers and in the hands of the poker gods. Great if the rest of the table are poor players ( unlikely ) and if luck is on your side - but...
(5) Don't do verbal (/chat) online deals unless you know the others - I have done two, one fine EPT ticket deal honoured by a great guy ( and now friend ), one other online deal not honoured by a scoundrel.

The other issue over deals that worries me is when the casino doesn't administer them - I think that really they should to protect the players and keep the finances correct. To an extent I understand why they don't, as they want the headlines ( which are also to our benefit I suppose ).

Tony

P.S. Once did a cracking deal over a breakfast in Southend....LOL to those who know...

Great Post Mr Saint Sir, & I thought that Grand Prix deal was extremely sensible, & the logic behind it. Folks can argue all day as to whether prize pool structures are too top heavy - the number of Final Table Deals cut suggests it's a fact.

As to that Deal over Brekkie at Southend.....yup, that was a corker.....;)

as you know your self tony sometimes a deal needs to be done .

take vegas for instance ,im doing about 20k Im  in on the 2 weeks iv been there.

i get 3 handed with neil channing and a yank ,its 8.20 in the morning i have more than half the chips ,

the yank suggests a chip count ,to which I'm happy with but neil wants none of it .

ok i said im tired lets chop it equal 3 ways ,i know its a bad deal for me but im tired ,and this puts me in front .

the second one they suggested a chip count some one isnt happy ,hes garrenteed 3 place ,with 5 left .

so we carry on ,the very next hand i take him out with AK v99 so now we all drag more money .

the man could have had 6k more ,but then again i could have doubled him up .

instead i walk away from 2 tourneys with 80 k .

thats why sometimes its logical to do deals .

You say 'of course it does' then give an example that demonstrates the opposite position. It's not a matter of you 'letting' your opponent take $1m as they'd already have that sewn up!

It's all relative and dependant on many variables but in a nutshell, if I'm playing in a £20rebuy and I'm offered a deal that gives me between £300-500 then I'm taking it. If I find myself @ the FT of the WSOP main event I wouldn't deal as for me there'd be no point. I'd have made a significant cash and have nothing to lose financially. At the level I'm playing IMO I hurt myself financially when I don't deal.

I don't want to sound like I'm calling you out, but I doubt it.  Anyone that feels the need to take 300-500 when offered is going to MORE than happy to deal long before the final table of the ME.

I could cheerfully play on for 500, but I'm damn sure I would crap my pants and be unable to turn down the opportunity to lock in a million extra.  The first million might be life changing, the second million definitely would be...

There's no argument here really, it's just a matter of context and personal circumstances.

May sound illogical to you but I wouldn't be thinking about doing a deal (unless a very particular set of circumstances arose) in a big paying comp like that but I would always be thinking about a deal in the small-time comps I play.

There's no argument here really, it's just a matter of context and personal circumstances.

And that sums it up beautifully.

The 33 runner £500 Main Event at Sheffield last night was chopped 8 ways, the two biggest shares going to Lord Thewy & Big Micky Jones, £3k each. Well done to both of them.

Was the deal dome for "friendship & adulation"? - I think not. More likely just good old fashioned common-sense & bankroll management. If I'd have played, & Finalled, I'd certainly have accepted any sensible deal that was offered. Cash is King, eh?

There's no argument here really, it's just a matter of context and personal circumstances.

And that sums it up beautifully.
[/quote]

Sort of!  I certainly don't post looking for arguments, but I do like to discuss...  One of the best reasons is to understand what views are out there.  I admit it is  illogical to me, as would be an 8-way deal at the other end of the spectrum) but that doesn't mean those views aren't entitlted, valid, or right.

I wonder though if those that look to lock in multi-way deals subconsciously have a higher propensity to change their game when say near the bubble of a big one.  So not compromising on the payouts but if they have compromised their game to get there it could have the same long term effect.

In my mind, I suspect I have done it myself.  When a situation with a (much larger than normal) prizepool looms and a hand is set up beautifully to make a move with lots of chips already in the pot, I have on occasion found a reason not to pull the trigger.  I have usually convinced myself that the opponent was "too poor to put the hand down" "too obvious its a squeeze" etc when I really don't know if that was the case or if it was nerves taking over.

I am very much inclined to agree with this view. At this time in my life, as with most people, money is a factor. Making enough money out of poker to pay some bills and to enable me to carry on playing is the priority. Anybody who says any different either lives at home with their parents or is financially secure.

One of the first posts on this thread quoted Tony G who doesn't deal because he says "I've got the big heart". Well I find it no surprise that affluent and sponsored pros pay little consideration to the financial implications of their win or bust strategy. I think this view from a role model to many might be quite irresponsible and misleading actually.

Tune into Sky Sports News and you are sure to see an interview with the latest football sensation who has signed with one of the big four Premier League clubs. Funny how they always say they came to the club for "footballing reasons" and that money simply wasn't a factor. Mmmmm....when you earn £50-100k a week there is little surprise money isn't an issue (I wonder if said footballer and agent sat in the manager's office to discuss terms with this attitude cos it would have saved the club a fortune!)

So I agree with Billy. If I take 1k home from a 4-way chop in a £20 re-buy this gives me the funds to play recreationally in these tournaments for the rest of the month and also buys me into a number of sats for bigger events: Events that could possibly change my life...make me financially secure...and give me "the big heart!"

However, once at the WSOP final table I have achieved the goal of financial security. I may win $1m or $2m...both amounts are sufficient for me so other things become important. I would really want to play it out because I have guaranteed financial security as well as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take my place in history and achieve something that money simply can't buy.....Oh to have the luxury of the big heart.

The 110 runner GBPT Main Event at Leeds was well-structured. It must have been, there were 9 players left at 4pm & the 8th player never busted out until just after midnight!

They then did a huge 7 way deal, £6k to everyone left, play for the rest. Which took another 4 hours.

Look at Prize Structures to see the reasons.

Having never played any big tournaments in the UK I was wondering how the organsers/sponsers felt about deals being done? especially if there is "added prize money"

If they were to structure the Prize Pool sensibly, the problem would largely go away. There are plenty of moaners & groaners when flatter Prize Pools are mooted, but the evidence is overwhelmingly suggesting that's what most folks want, when crunch-time comes.

The Sponsors are prob not best pleased, but it's their own fault for not listening to the players & watching the Tourney scene properly.

The APAT tourneys are very top heavy (with the added seat prize).

So how come Tikay , APAT doesn't support deal making??

Because they are National Championships, & you can't chop a National Championship. APAT Events are also not really about money, as those who play them readily testify. And our Prize Pool is is structured flat (nearly said "nice & flat"!) so there is not much benefit in chopping anyway. It's designed for, & fit for, purpose.

Again, the evidence suggests this is correct. In only one APAT event was a Deal ever mentioned during the whole Season, and as soon as I reminded the player of the APAT ethos,  the matter was quickly & happily dropped. Eventually, I suppose one might get chopped up, but as English/Irish/Welsh/Scottish/UK/European/World Amateur Championships, it does not stack up to chop them. And the players know that, they want that trophy, that Gold Medal. that title, and those Bragging rights - "AMATEUR CHAMPION". And with a fairly narrow gap in the top 3 money places, but the Added Money GUKPT Seat thrown in, (or EPT/WSOP as was) they are keenly contested in a lovely spirit.

I understand you are doing an APAT Masters? which pro's can enter. Will you allow deals in that? Any news on when/where is will be?

Yes, there will be an APAT Masters, for Amateurs & Pros. Date & Venue still tbc, but I'd say not before the turn of the year.

"Allow deals", well, in the Amateur Series, we can't really prohibit them, but we structure things such that they are not really worth doing, plus there is the Title & stuff that goes with it too.

What will our view be on deals in the APAT Masters? I've not discussed that with my colleagues yet, so in truth, I don't know. But my two penny worth will suggest that we structure it "sensibly", & in that way, the "deal" situation becomes less likely. We should have the Members Committees up & running by then too, so we'll take input from them. It remains to be seen, however, if I'll still be Chairman by that time, as the position is to be an Elected one after Season One.

I am not anti-deal in any way, I must add, quite the opposite, though they are not suitable for a National or Interational Amateur Championship. Hell, I've accepted scores, maybe hundreds, of "chops". My take on deals is that they happen so often because the Prize Pool is badly structured, relative to the "play" left in the Tourney.  A very fixable thing.

The Main Event at Toquay's Golden Sands Fessie, a very successful & wel-run affair I gather, resulted in a 3 way deal.

So all three of last week's Main Events resulted in deals or chops, Sheffield £500 was an 8 way chop, Leeds GBPT a 7 way chop, & Torquay had a 3 way deal.

We hear all the moans & groans about Deals being a bad thing, but the hard facts suggest they are remarkably popular, if we had all three Main Events in a given week subject to chops or deals.

A deal was also done at The Sportsman last Monday, in the £250, when 7 players were left. I busted 8th......;)

Really good post jjandellis

That's a great post. Thank you.

Interesting post, thanks