Doing deals

[Simon Galloway]

When it comes to doing deals, EVERYONE has a price.  In this case you are talking about £185 extra, or £92.50 each.  If that makes a big difference to your circumstance or if there are other reasons (e.g. you want to go to bed and go to work the next morning) then dealing is fine.

If £92.50 makes no difference to you and you want to play on, that's fine too.

However, with so many STT's and HU tables available, nowadays the concept of playing on "for the practice" doesn't need to apply.

If your opponent is sane enough to have a rough idea of h/u hand values and when to shove, it is unlikely that you have more theoretical +EV than accepting even money when you have a 2:1 chip defecit.

I always think Ungar had it right though...  "you wanna do a deal with me?  I will tell you what we are gonna do.  Let's put both prizes together and play for the lot!"

[M3boy]

When it comes to doing deals, EVERYONE has a price.  In this case you are talking about £185 extra, or £92.50 each.  If that makes a big difference to your circumstance or if there are other reasons (e.g. you want to go to bed and go to work the next morning) then dealing is fine.

If £92.50 makes no difference to you and you want to play on, that's fine too.

However, with so many STT's and HU tables available, nowadays the concept of playing on "for the practice" doesn't need to apply.

If your opponent is sane enough to have a rough idea of h/u hand values and when to shove, it is unlikely that you have more theoretical +EV than accepting even money when you have a 2:1 chip defecit.

I always think Ungar had it right though...  "you wanna do a deal with me?  I will tell you what we are gonna do.  Let's put both prizes together and play for the lot!"

I heard that deal mentioned in Barcelona 2 years ago in the omaha final. The guy who suggested it went on to loose - but the guy who won turned down that deal lol

[Eck]

How would you feel if 2 APAT players HU wished to do a deal for the sake of their role??? (Although I believe they'd be daft to do so, considering prizes on offer)

I was offered a deal once I refused it ....then he called my all in with  ....sigh...off for another lie down 

I won't tell you how good i was getting in on the deal either.

[DaveShoelace]

I never do deals online, but am usually up for one live.

The reason being is that if you are a regular at that casino, or at least play a lot with the people involved, it might ensure you a favourble deal in the future.

I once did a 3 way deal at a final of a small freezeout where I was the chip leader, first prize was only about £500 anyway and I took about £380. About 6 monhs later I found myself the short stack in the final four and the chip leader was one of the guys I dealt with previously. I ended up getting £2000, only £150 less than the eventual winner and I cant help but think that the previous deal influenced this one positivley.

Online you are unlikely to find yourself in that situation again, what with the amount of players at any given poker room, but live it makes good business sense to 'network' in this way.

[Jon MW]

If your livelihood depends on your poker income then I think there is no question that Bankroll Management is paramount and deals will nearly always be a good thing to agree to.

But if poker is only a hobby I don't think its that simple. In this case I'd agree that it all comes down to price - if the extra amount you'd guarantee from a deal is equivalent to a couple of months wages then I'd go for it, but if it was only a couple of weeks worth then I don't see the point.

I've only been in a position to be offered a deal once, but I turned it down because I thought I'd rather get the live heads up practice and I like first places in my records, the extra couple of hundred quid I ended up missing out on just means that I could afford to play slightly less poker afterwards - but as I don't derive an income from poker then missing out like this isn't going to make a difference to me.

[RioRodent]

Anything that removes the need to play heads-up has to be a good thing!

 

[tonysaint]

Interesting thread.

I received a measure of both positive and negative comment from the rail last year at the Gros Grand Prix over one of the deals that was done. I was quietly mulling over the numbers and having a scribble when the two players sat next to me asked what i was scribbling/calculating/thinking - and before a few minutes had passed a payout restructure/saver deal was done for £10k each, two tables out. Since that time it has been raised with me many times....

My position ( and defence is ) as follows :
(1) If deals make sense to those involved, then do them. Don't pressure others nor give in to others pressure. Long live, and respect to, the veto that we all have.
(2) Payout structures.... do we really all like them ? Aren't they rather top heavy, especially in what are the "larger" UK events ? Do we like making the third day of a major event and potentially not even getting our investment back ? Are prize structures sometimes more suited to the marketing dept than to the players ?
(3) Preserve the game. This is the point for which the Grand Prix Deal attracted most criticism, save from the guy that was low stack who thought it must be an early Xmas...but we can debate how much it changed the game as there was lots of money still to play for... In principle though deals should not turn the game on its head. Chip leader(s) beware.
(4) What goes around comes around. We all like to think that we are going to win that final table, but we are amongst our peers and in the hands of the poker gods. Great if the rest of the table are poor players ( unlikely ) and if luck is on your side - but...
(5) Don't do verbal (/chat) online deals unless you know the others - I have done two, one fine EPT ticket deal honoured by a great guy ( and now friend ), one other online deal not honoured by a scoundrel.

The other issue over deals that worries me is when the casino doesn't administer them - I think that really they should to protect the players and keep the finances correct. To an extent I understand why they don't, as they want the headlines ( which are also to our benefit I suppose ).

Tony

P.S. Once did a cracking deal over a breakfast in Southend....LOL to those who know...

[tikay]

Great Post Mr Saint Sir, & I thought that Grand Prix deal was extremely sensible, & the logic behind it. Folks can argue all day as to whether prize pool structures are too top heavy - the number of Final Table Deals cut suggests it's a fact.

As to that Deal over Brekkie at Southend.....yup, that was a corker.....

[vinni]

as you know your self tony sometimes a deal needs to be done .

take vegas for instance ,im doing about 20k Im  in on the 2 weeks iv been there.

i get 3 handed with neil channing and a yank ,its 8.20 in the morning i have more than half the chips ,

the yank suggests a chip count ,to which I'm happy with but neil wants none of it .

ok i said im tired lets chop it equal 3 ways ,i know its a bad deal for me but im tired ,and this puts me in front .

the second one they suggested a chip count some one isnt happy ,hes garrenteed 3 place ,with 5 left .

so we carry on ,the very next hand i take him out with AK v99 so now we all drag more money .

the man could have had 6k more ,but then again i could have doubled him up .

instead i walk away from 2 tourneys with 80 k .

thats why sometimes its logical to do deals .

[BrumBilly]

The WSOP argument doesn't really add up; when you get shorthanded you're already quids in to the tune of over £1m.

Of course it does. OK, when we both make the final table of the WSOP 2008 main event, I'll let to take one million if you let me have first place of eight million, plus all the plaudits, advertising, social functions for the next year, etc.

You say 'of course it does' then give an example that demonstrates the opposite position. It's not a matter of you 'letting' your opponent take $1m as they'd already have that sewn up!

It's all relative and dependant on many variables but in a nutshell, if I'm playing in a £20rebuy and I'm offered a deal that gives me between £300-500 then I'm taking it. If I find myself @ the FT of the WSOP main event I wouldn't deal as for me there'd be no point. I'd have made a significant cash and have nothing to lose financially. At the level I'm playing IMO I hurt myself financially when I don't deal.

[Simon Galloway]

You say 'of course it does' then give an example that demonstrates the opposite position. It's not a matter of you 'letting' your opponent take $1m as they'd already have that sewn up!

It's all relative and dependant on many variables but in a nutshell, if I'm playing in a £20rebuy and I'm offered a deal that gives me between £300-500 then I'm taking it. If I find myself @ the FT of the WSOP main event I wouldn't deal as for me there'd be no point. I'd have made a significant cash and have nothing to lose financially. At the level I'm playing IMO I hurt myself financially when I don't deal.

I don't want to sound like I'm calling you out, but I doubt it.  Anyone that feels the need to take 300-500 when offered is going to MORE than happy to deal long before the final table of the ME.

I could cheerfully play on for 500, but I'm damn sure I would crap my pants and be unable to turn down the opportunity to lock in a million extra.  The first million might be life changing, the second million definitely would be...

[BrumBilly]

There's no argument here really, it's just a matter of context and personal circumstances.

May sound illogical to you but I wouldn't be thinking about doing a deal (unless a very particular set of circumstances arose) in a big paying comp like that but I would always be thinking about a deal in the small-time comps I play.

[tikay]

There's no argument here really, it's just a matter of context and personal circumstances.

May sound illogical to you but I wouldn't be thinking about doing a deal (unless a very particular set of circumstances arose) in a big paying comp like that but I would always be thinking about a deal in the small-time comps I play.

There's no argument here really, it's just a matter of context and personal circumstances.

And that sums it up beautifully.

[tikay]

The 33 runner £500 Main Event at Sheffield last night was chopped 8 ways, the two biggest shares going to Lord Thewy & Big Micky Jones, £3k each. Well done to both of them.

Was the deal dome for "friendship & adulation"? - I think not. More likely just good old fashioned common-sense & bankroll management. If I'd have played, & Finalled, I'd certainly have accepted any sensible deal that was offered. Cash is King, eh?

[Simon Galloway]

There's no argument here really, it's just a matter of context and personal circumstances.

And that sums it up beautifully.
[/quote]

Sort of!  I certainly don't post looking for arguments, but I do like to discuss...  One of the best reasons is to understand what views are out there.  I admit it is  illogical to me, as would be an 8-way deal at the other end of the spectrum) but that doesn't mean those views aren't entitlted, valid, or right.

I wonder though if those that look to lock in multi-way deals subconsciously have a higher propensity to change their game when say near the bubble of a big one.  So not compromising on the payouts but if they have compromised their game to get there it could have the same long term effect.

In my mind, I suspect I have done it myself.  When a situation with a (much larger than normal) prizepool looms and a hand is set up beautifully to make a move with lots of chips already in the pot, I have on occasion found a reason not to pull the trigger.  I have usually convinced myself that the opponent was "too poor to put the hand down" "too obvious its a squeeze" etc when I really don't know if that was the case or if it was nerves taking over.