blonde poker forum

I was watching a poker programme this week that described one of the players as semi professional.

I've heard this term bandied about and Im not really sure what constitutes a semi professional poker player.

My understanding of some of the categories are:

Social player =enjoys playing poker but doesn't take it too seriously and enjoys the banter around the table too and meeting up with other players. May play a few times a week = me for example

Professional player = relies on poker for income and is very focused on winning. Plays all the time. Sometimes sponsored. Roland De Wolf for example.

Celebrity player = enjoys the game, can be good at it, has another decent income and often gets paid to enter comps or has their buy in paid for them to promote a sponsor or event. Teddy Sherringham for example.

Semi professional = not sure.

Any thoughts?

I would say that it is someone who plays the game in their spare time and has other sources of income but takes the game seriously and is a winner at it.

I think they probably mean that a professional player only plays poker for income, whereas a semi-pro does something else as well (maybe has a job in the day and plays in the evening).

I know I've heard Vicky Coren say that she thinks there's no such thing as a professional poker player (not live, anyway), there are simply people who make enough money from their hobby that they don't have to get a job.

I think that anyone who derives a significant portion, but not the majority of their income from playing poker is a semi-pro. i.e. tikay.

I'd go with this but add also that the income made thru playing poker at least matches or is more than the income made thru other means.

How is that different from a social player then?

You may not have seen red shirt at Luton but you may have seen him referred to on threads - and I wouldn't describe him as a semi pro - not because of his standard of play because professionals can play badly sometimes - but because he seems more like a social player.

Not sure of that makes sense but there must be an ingredient I haven't identified that makes someone semi pro?

It isn't - I would say a lot of these terms are misnomers. You're always playing poker for money - some people make enough money that they don't have to get a proper job. Someone could be a 'social player' in that they spend a few hours in a casino a few times a week just to pass the time. However, they might be good enough that they win enough money so that they don't have to work during the day - do they suddenly stop being a social player?

first thing I'd say is it's impossible to catagorise players in these terms. I've yet to meet two with the same circumstances.

most 'pro' players I know have another source of income. I would think very very few people make their income solely from poker. that means most people who say they're pro are actually semi-pro as they rely on poker as part of their income, but not all of it .

Interesting opinion - so we should be able to easily spot the real pro players. People like Daniel Negraneau etc? Does that mean that in the Uk we are behind as far as actual pro players are concerned? Who would be our professional players?

Would a semi pro declare his winnings as part of income on a tax return????

A professional is someone who is very very very good at something.

For me a professional player is someone whos just very damn good at it and is a long term winning player. You can be a professional player at 0.01/0.02 tables thus not making an income but still being a winning player for example :)

A semi-pro would be someone who is largly a winning player but doesnt spend as much time playing poker as he does other things in life. So with priorities in a different order for example.

All blondes are at least semi-pro's in my opinion :) taking the game seriously, playing it seriously... and usually good at it :)

I would argue that there is no such thing as a proffesional poker player.  If you are a proffesional surely tax has to be paid to society.  So i'd argue that term semi pro is pointless as pro is incorect as I would think that if you are professional you should definately play tax as you are unlikely to be paying any tax to the governemnt.  Semi pro could be seen as a profitable high voume player who isn't famous :)

I don't think paying tax is a good definition of a professional.

After all income tax hasn't been around as long as doctors and lawyers (and shopkeepers, tailors, cobblers...)  have - did they only become professionals after they started paying income tax.

Professional poker players do pay tax - they simply pay it at a rate of 0%.

I think the problem arises as there are essentially 2 completely valid definitions for professional.

One is based on how good you are - and the other is based on whether you earn an income from it.

Both of these have implications when you try and extract the definition of semi-pro from it.

Personally I think the football analogy is the closest to poker.

Kick around in the park               : know how to play poker but don't do it very often  - amateur
sunday/saturday league football   : play regularly, try to get better - play events like APAt for example - good amateur
Conference South/North/National: play in festival events, get a few good results - but ultimately their profession is their day to day job - semi-pro
Football League                        : essentially make a living from poker, occasionally topped up with other work, often poker related (eg journalism), some sponsorship if lucky - Professional
Premier League                         : Poker superstar, sponsored, brings out books and dvd's etc. - Professional


There are probably a lot of holes in this analogy as I pretty much made it up as I went along, but I think it covers the gist of what I percieve to be the difference between amateur/semi-pro/pro with regards to poker :)

I know one thing - I am definitely not a professional player.

*clutches APAT ticket tightly*

I would say a professional poker play is someone who relies on poker for a percentage of their income and the other percentage comes from poker related sources. E.g. sponsorship, tv commentary, books, magazines, etc. If playing poker was taken out of the equation they would need to find another job to compensate. Similar to pro golfers. a lot work for clubs and give lessons etc.

Semi pro – someone who relies on poker for a percentage of their wage and the other percentage comes from non poker sources.

Amateur – some who plays poker but doesn’t rely on it at all.

I don’t think there is a proper definition but that’s how I look at it.

In that case I definitely am a professional player.

*Mourns absence of APAT ticket*

I like this - was just composing a similar post- its just that yours was better.  paying Tax, daf, is a red herring and not really the point. We teach the students about professionalism and if you want to be pedantic poker has to be a profession before its exponents can be deemed trult professional.  " Professions are at least to a degree self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field, and in judging whether the work done by their members is up to standard."  er..... nope

I feel this too tight and prefer this....

A professional can be either a person in a profession (certain types of skilled work requiring formal training/education) or in sports (a sportsman/sportwoman doing sports for payment).

This makes the sporting analogy a good one and fits what we do.

Good analogy Jon.  I will use it as my own in the future.

:)up

I also think that a lot of the younger online "pros" with marginal bankrolls probably still live with their parents and dont have to worry about, gas, electric, water rates, rent/mortgage, council tax, maintenance and repairs, food shopping ect, or even having a spouse and child to support

I'd like to see how many of the $0.50/1-$1/2 teenage multi table "pro" grinders  could play with the same proficiency if they lived on their own and had to play for a LIVING in the true sense of the word

Thats the same for any proffesion tho

no it isnt, you go to work, serve burgers, type things into a computer or whatever you do and get a basic wage memorialised in a contract you've signed with your employer, the money you earn comes from them which is a set amount in the majority of jobs, if you arn eanough to pay your bills working in mcdonalds then a couple of dropped cheeseburgers or overchanging someone dosnt have the same potential implications as a couple of dropped buy ins or period of substandard play.

the pressure of a boss saying "thats the third cheesburger you've dropped this week, come on fix up"  differes emmensly from making bad plays due to tilt, bankroll managment and running bad, It's a lot easier to gamble the roof over your head playing pro poker than it is sitting in an office typing all day

Q What do you do when a poker player stands at your door
A Pay him for the pizza

I presume I fall into the vague 'semi pro' category. I spend about 60% of my time playing and the other 40% writing for poker magazines and pokernews.com. About 70% of my income comes from playing and 30% from writing, but when Im having a bad patch I write more and can easily make a living from writing alone (If you ever see my face in WPT magazine more than twice an issue, it means I'd had a really bad month the issue before  ;) ). Most of my income comes from playing, but without the safety net I have of writing I'm not sure if I could do it. I also love writing as much as playing, so its not just a safety net.

Most 'pro players' have their fingers in many pies. Look at all the Dusk Till Dawn pros, many of whom work for the club as well as representing it at the tables. Even the biggest names do other things, even if it is just essentially marketing themselves like the Hellmuths and the Brunsons.

Then there is the category of 'professionals' who actually are just, well, unemployed. The example of the college student making their way through college playing online is a good one. There are also plenty of players who spend all their time in casinos playing poker, but are actually broke - we all know a few players who are playing with borrowed money trying to avoid work.

I'm not sure what point im trying to make anymore. I think semi pro is anyone who relies upon poker to pay, even if only slightly, the bills.

It's like comparing a door-to-door sales man living at home with his parents to one who has bills to pay.

I would have said this was the other way round to be honest - in 2004 and 2005 i made a lot more playing poker than i did in my job and at one point was on the verge of giving up the job to solely play poker. At the time i would have called myself a semi professional but i did it the other way round.

I decided that i wanted to keep the job as this gave me a guaranteed income which meant that the bills got paid and i had food on the table. What i made from playing poker allowed me to buy "treats", if i had a bad month on the tables it wasnt the end of the world because my poker bankroll and my bills and food were seperate.

yeah, and?

this is a poker forum not glazing direct

I eluded to, in my previous post that "most", but not all traditional jobs have a basic wage, the magnitude of playing professional online poker for a living is such that i question wether or not the young online pros with modest bankrolls would function as well with the aforementioned multitude of responsibilities, also playing professional poker is a tad more sophisticated than walking up to a door and saying " hi, i'm john from glass up your arse, wanna buy some windows"?

That what it is for me. My income from my business pays for life in general and anything I win at poker is for treats and sometimes using for rainy days. Initially I had to use money from income to pay for buy ins but now I have a stash under the bed so to speak that covers the poker so it's self funding.

I love the football analogy from Jon - I think a lot of us are sunday league players then?

are semi pros allowed to play APAT events???? ;hide;

APAT dont catagorise players like that - they use the following definition:

The dictionary defines an amateur as "a person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession."

For the avoidance of doubt, Membership of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour is not available to any individual who earns his or her SOLE income as a result of a) playing poker or b) utilising their poker expertise to supplement their poker income away from the table, for example, a professional poker player who also earns a fee as a TV poker analyst.

are you after a job in their marketing department?

I remember the previous discussions on this... so therefore the answer to this thread (according to apat) is that there is no such thing as a semi professional player?

or maybe a re-branding is needed-----> ASPPAT ( Amateur and Semi Pro Poker Assosiation Tour)  then we could all be ass patters perhaps?


Not sure if this is helping?   ;whistle;

Interesting post.
On the first GUKPT I got announced as a semi pro as the players are introduced onto the set and I subsequently got some sarcastic comments from Vicky Coren regarding that status.

The people interviewing at Sunset + Vine had asked what was my largest win and when I told them over $100k but that I mainly played online in my spare time the semi-pro tag was given to me.

The football analogy is a good one and if that is the case hoping to get crosscourtbh promoted from the Conference to Divsion 2 during 2007-08.

If you're paid to play poker ie sponsored - I can't think of a more direct definition of professional.

Teddy Sheringham???

Some sponsored players have other jobs outside poker.

Didn't think about that - I think it just goes to show how impossible it is to come up with a hard and fast rule that will apply universally.

 - sponsored players, who are sponsored - because of their poker playing, and not for any other reason. They must be professionals - right?

Not sure, depends on what APA say  ;carlocitrone; ;whistle; ;angel; ;ifm;

Professional - it is their proffession
Semi professional it is half of their proffession. Be careful. This sort of character is likely to get you half pregnant.
Amateur - from the french amour - love - is someone who has a love of the game

Proud to be amateur

Men who make money playing poker while also surfing for pornography...FACT

And if you get a one-off, single Tourney, Sponsorship Deal, what does that make you?

A high risk liability in the eyes of the sponsor?

Hehe, got me!

But seriously, many players get one-off Sponsorship Deals, or "freebies", I can think of scores of such instances.  Does that in itself make them Pros? If they got paid in to a single Event?

Good point - here is a good example of this if I've got the players right - Chilli and Claw - I think it was - got sponsored into the same womens event by the same sponsor - Chilli I would class as professional as she gave up her business to play poker, Claw is employed elsewhere.

Does the sponsorship make Claw a pro? No. It's just great to get to play in a tourney for free.  Does it confirm Chillis status as a professional? In my eyes yes.

All very confusing.

Paralysis by anaylsis!  To re-work the (very good) football analogy, if a pro footballer is injured for the whole season, no one rushes to challenge his status as a pro - he is still (pressumably) getting paid.  Someone who works in WH Smith all year that gets put into an ad hoc tourny is still an amateur, I don't see the point in temporarily re-calibrating their status.  If they get put in every week, and they have the talent to show some sort of financial return on the arrangement, then by all means call them a semi pro if that label makes a difference to anything?

I'm a 'semi self unemployed losing poker player' if that helps?