blonde poker forum

It's blonde Bash 5, Cardiff, & everything is light-hearted & fun.

I somehow find myself in the Final of the Heads-Up against a very good friend, who also happens to be a Producer at Sky Poker, James Taylor. We are pretty close, & would never "do" each other. He's pretty inexperienced at poker, but he's got good game, & is no fool.

Little Jimmy is dealing - he's another Sjy Poker Producer - & at one stage, with James dwelling on a big call, Little Jimmy (the Mancunian lad who Finalled, Seat 9) is dealing, & he says to James "call him, he's got nothing". (He was right, too). I tell this just to show the sort of spirit the game was being played in.

Then this happens.

It's me to act, we've seen a one-suit flop, & I'm trying to get a read on him. I pick up my stack as if to bet, count a bet out, hold them for a second, then tap the table, "OK, I'll let you try & catch up a bit" I say. Of course, I've got bugger all. I can't recall who won the hand, but it was just the Blinds I seem to recall.

My little "act" was designed to get a read on him. At no time did my chips cross the line.

Anyway, the match ends, played throughout in great spirit, & we shake hands da de da.

Afterwards, Compo, whose opinion I value greatly, suggested my "act" was a bit dodgy, & if it had been him, he'd have been miffed.

I was quite shocked at this, & it set me thinking. What is the difference between my "act" (picking up my chips, as if to Bet) & the old line "how much you got behind?". In both cases, we are usually doing the same thing - trying to get a reaction.

I must add that the entire game was played with good humour, with lots of speech play.

Was I out of order?

No, I don't think so. In any event, anytime you say something like that, I can feel safe I'm probably ahead.

you were bang out of order for calling James' all in with 10 4 only to be up against J 10 ... and spike the 4 .. so sick !!

No, he - the Mug - called MY All-In. A stroke of genuis by me, as there had not been a 4 on the Board for 3 hands, so one was due.

You can't learn that in books, you know.

no cant see a problem with it myself.

in blonde bash heads up comps basically all moodys go lol

Standard

no problem with it at all for me..

No problem here either.

It's that Compo trying to get extra reads on you ;)

No issue whatsoever.  Particularly given the recent history, completely above board.

I never object to anyone doing this to me, even if I don't know them - it normally gives me some sort of information.  I don't want anyone to stop them on a rule (or ethical) infringement.

What a big girl that Compo really is.

 ;iagree; :goodpost: rotflmfao

Puuuuuleeeeeeeeease!  Sure there's some money swapping hands at the end, but when you know each other and there's equal banter going on, you're EXPECTED to pull silly things like that...no?  Dunno about anyone else, but watching you play and listening to your banter during the hands was one of many highlights for me this week-end. 

This is the second thread today suggesting there were a couple of 'issues' and I was oblivious to the lot.  It's a nice place in 'my world.'   rotflmfao 

Funny how ones memory fades with age.  I was dealing and I don't know who you were playing but it wasn't a sky bod. Anyway..... the match, as all  matches, was played in good spirit especially your opponents all-in blind first hand when you folded quicker than origami expert on the clock.

The comment i made regarding your reaching for chips, pausing and checking was "what a moody, anyone else, me included, would have shoved right there as it was obvious you were after a free card"

I agree that anything goes at bb5 but under other circumstances i believe that actions such as that are treading a very thin line. so there.

I rest my case.

It was AT you were up against!!!

Look, I stand by every word I said. But yes, technically, it was not against James, (it was againast a nice friend of Matt Dale's), Little Jimmy was not dealing, & yes, I may have forgotten exactly what you said. That apart, I was spot on.......

But seriously, in a "proper game", do you think "making as if to to bet", then changing my mind, counts as a Moody? (Assuming the chips do not go over the line). I mean, one can be confused, & indecisive, surely.....?

Nope, J-T. Against James from Sky. Deffo.

If I was Matt Dales friend, I would take this to IBAS :)

FYP

Nooooooooooooooooo! That Compo is biased, you know. Has to be, it stands to reason, because, well, it just does. All Independent Arbitrators are. I read it somewhere.

LOOOOOOOOL

i have seen people count out chips in a multi way pot when they are last to act to give the impression they are going to bet while other players are considering their actions, and once its checked round to them they put the chips back on their stack and check!!! Nothing wrong with this as it gets them a free card and maybe has stopped someone bluffing at the pot. A LEGIMATE tactic i think.

angle shooting

Why?

I got warned by a dealer for doing the same thing

I asked for an explanation

he couldnt provide one


so now when he deals at my table i try it on again

except im looking at the dealer,just for a laugh........

compo dealt the game between tikay and firephil

No problem............you see this move all the time. Many do it as part of their dwell up fold routine.

Ahh yes, "firephil", & what a smashing lad he was too. Top Bloke him, liked him a lot.

if this is compis view, (whoever compo is) tell him to save any money he invests in poker and take up conkers cos the outcome will be the same ..............................................................he will end up with a sore wrist playin both games.............


this is the simplest form of psychological play to get a reaction of a player , ...... it is a gme with principles  , yes, but competitive advantage is the  key over such a long game. 

this is a basic play , go forbid if he saw some real "tell casts"

perfectly legitimate way of gaining info. much more sporting that aggressive, insulting table talk.

If you can't keep your emotions in check when someone is counting chips or asking you a civilised question, you have no business playing poker.

I have seen some people push their stacks towards the line as if to bet but then stop just before the line. Some tables dont have lines. If the player shouts call as the stack is being pushed what happens? I see this happen quite often. I don't think you'd usually get a read from a decent player by doing this. No offence, but I think it's a bit of a cheap shot at getting a read. It's kinda like saying "I'm going to raise................. my hand." to get a read on someone.

"Compo" is Dave Compton, Racing Commentator Legend. To be fair, as I stated earlier in the thread, I misquoted him. What he said was "if you did that against me, I'd insta-push all-in". Sorry for the confusion, memory problems here. And he has a very fine game indeed, & his played to cashed ratio is extraordinary, including a cracking $13,000 score in Vegas.

Thanks - but why would you deem that "a cheap shot". I'm not arguing, just curious,. I wish to play my poker entirely within the spirit of the game, not just the Rules, of the game, & this interests me greatly.

Thanks Adam. I do speech-play galore, but just (attempted) "humorous" stuff, and never in a million years would I dream of going down the "malicious/insulting speech-play" road. I don't play poker to be insulted by anyone, so that cuts both ways.

absolutely

I love watching good speech players work. people who keep some class at the same time. couple that spring to mind, I sat next to Lawrence Gosney in my first £100 rebuy at notts a few years ago and it was a joy to watch. I also remember Brian Wilson on the BPO a couple of years ago. Was never once insulting or rude, but never shut up. Negraneu isalso a class act at seemingly friendly chat while he's riffling through your subconscious.

I don't think moving chips around is the say as saying "I raise.......................my hand." That's clearly angle shooting and you should be made to put in a minimum raise if you did that.

hmmm.... sorry, cheap shot is the wrong term to use. I just think that if it's an instant call for the other person you could trick him into saying call a bit too early. Also, I've seen this tactic used to make people fold out of turn.

A good poker player assesses the actions of his/her opponent and tries to decipher what the truth of the matter is.

A good poker player uses his actions to muddy the waters so his/her opponent finds it difficult to arrive at the truth of the matter.

This is poker.

If all actions were genuine the game would be rather boring.

If you are not being rude to another player and not breaking any rules then you are entitled to do whatever you want to throw your opponent off the scent. It is then up to your opponent to judge what is genuine and what's not. Wearing shades and a cap is the same principle...you are concealing. Slow-playing is the same...you are concealing. Bluffing is the same...you are concealing.

I enjoy playing with those players who will kick and fight their way through every pot...not willing to give an inch. This is how the game should be played. I don't expect an easy ride from anyone and they don't expect an easy ride from me. To get your opponent to think one thing while the reality is something else is the fundamental principle of the game. Throwing off reverse tells does not make you an angle-shooter...it makes you a competitive player.

must hve lost the humour of the post in the typing ..............i know compos yer mate and i gathered  he was tellin you he cud read you but alas it got lost somehow.



as for table talk ........nah not going there ......................................

When I was all-in in yesterday's London GUKPT heat, Lam Trinh grabbed his stack and went to push them in but stopped just before the line. I almost leapt at my cards to turn my winning hand over as I wasn't looking directly at him and so could easily have assumed that he'd pushed them over the line. Luckily I didn't do that and he did eventually call anyhow, but was his feint bad sportsmanship or just part of the game?

bad sportsmanship in my book..

I love conkers

One Roberto Romanello is great at speech play. When he was at the table in Cardiff it was a master class of speech play. It was all friendly and fuuny, but it was designed to get information, and I have to say he was really good.

;iagree;

how can you say this is offside booder its a class way of gettin a tell ........... it worked , it was just lam shudd folded.......... i have to say i am guilty of catching lamwith the exact same play , snoops if he is still in ask him when it was done to him.

lam is aggresive was also sat on my left , he flat called me al the way to the river , i value bet the river cos a gutshot filledin , but i didnt have him callin for a gutshot as he is a good player ..........i hat aa on a j high board  it read j387t        he reraised me allin and we both had big chips , it was at city west ireland in the main event .
i went straight for my stack he jumped up and flashed his cards above his head .

i stopped and looked at him fir 5 minutes and showed aa he had the only hand i cud put him on with his actions 99.........i got away from it by making a movement to gauge a reaction .........

irony was i wud hav called him purely because he was lam trim and capable of making the move because he new i cudnt call with qq kk aa,  as it happened he had the hand , he won less money i styed in the comp


need s must im aafraid , its a big game a lot of dough involvred
 

It is a lot of things my friend..Class it is not.

thankyou for that indepth explanation and discussion on whether using tables skills such as this is class or not,

let me try to explain how to use this to your advantage , if you benefit from it , it doesnt offend or allow the floor to be called then use it.
This whole strategy   enables you to enter into the pschye of the person you are doin battle with, moves like this also allow your subconcious  time to pick out situations that have happened throughout the hand , inwat is a 3 minute betting process
  ie me betting ,lam calling, allowed me to think quite rightly i was ahead , hence i was comfortable, the river card changed my comfort level...... i now had no idea were i was ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,i new he wasnt callin with aj he wud reraise me to find out were he was..................i new he wasnt holding qt etc etc

sooooooo i went from being in control to losing control......... you wud prob have to call him cos you would not have gained the extra info i didi.


now the real reason i use this method is to gaug the instant reaction of the player ,,,,,,,,, and their reaction is instant.  now this allows my subconcious to run through the fact that he raised preflopp and called my reraise  so he had a premuim hand ........... flop bet he flat caled rules out ak aq  cud be aj but he wudda folded pre flop.........


he flat calls turn  wat did the 8 do for him , it kept him imnterested  , there is a rainbow board so if he had 99 he now has second pair then a gut shot ,,,,,,,,, river comes BINGOOOOOOOOO   HE HITS HIS CARD...... .     MY INSTA REACTION WHEN I FIRST STARTED WUD BE CALL I GOT ACES.........


now i was rerasied n river i got a reaction out of him , this allowed me to gain some control , he had reacted ,,,,,, i needed to WORK THE STORY OUT this extra information closed the booked and alowed my subconcious to end the STORY....................


I FOLD I SURVIVE..........................thats why it is a class move ,,, in lams case it wasnt class because he had the info and didnt END THE STORY ..................HE CALLED SNOOPY.


this is much deeper that some clown pushing his chips toward the line ..........................


POKER IS A GAME OF SKILL AND PYSCHOLOGY HAS A MASSIVE IMPACT ON YOUR GAME LONGTERM , watch negranu in this years wsop he guessed correctly 3 times wat cards people had in their hand and lost alll his chips ........................  thats a perfect case of class table chat and acting . 2 years ago he would have got all their chips............   

Lol classy angle shooting.

as the streets go quiet to the sound of a cooll southern breeze...


here endethh the ;lesson;)

but what exactly is classy about it? I understand that it's effective..I don't understand why it would be deemed classy.

effective is a step forward so we will leave it at that ,you are warming to the idea ......... i refer you to your previous commments , look how far you have come.


the fact that it is a class move, is personal, i suppose, but it is a subtle move used in the right situation , if it was used by a div everytime it wud look stupid , but it wa instinctive when i first tried it, i dont know were i got it from , i must have seen it before.  so combining the sublety of it in a big comp in a situation that suited the move made it feel classy.........


i have used it once since in a festival at bpool , the affect it caused was to make the oponent go allin before my chips hit the line............that was diiferent situation but it had the same affect.........didnt feel as good as the other situation  but had the same result.......


it wud be useful next time you coment on a thread to put your side of the arguement rther than just one lining it as crap.........  save me some ink ;)

Angle shooting is effective and shouldn't confused with out playing people.

I think you have no idea of what quantifies angle shooting/stroking. Counting chips out behind an action line then checking is not even close to falling in the category of questionable behaviour.

That is angle shooting. You are forcing someone into making a mistake rather than getting a read from them.

There is nothing classy about that move.