blonde poker forum

I've had two situations in my last couple of sessions where I've been dealt AA in the blinds when very deep stacked, and am facing a raise - and it's left me a bit unsure of what to do. What's your thought process in these spots - what's the primary aim, to maybe win a big pot, or to control pot size? Do you reraise, and if so how much? Or just flat call and hopefully play a smaller pot deceptively?

Both 1/2 nl, 9-handed.

1st occasion I'm in the blinds with about $550. There's been a limp, a raise to $11 from a $380 stack who's playing something like 30/10. Monster stack (about $1100) has flat called the $11. He's uber tag, playing about 10/5.

2nd occasion is simpler - I've got about $380, there's a raise to $6 from a similar stack playing about 28/8.

What do you do and why?

(No bad beats to tell here, by the way...)

I don't think it's too bad to call and bet out on the flop providing there's only one other in the pot.  I don't like to play aces with more than two people in the pot.   

I normally reraise with aces regardless though, normally doubling the initial raise.  With 3 people involved I'd stick it up to 2.5 - 3 times the bet.

Looking forward to some decent replies too!

Completely agree...a good old fashioned pot sized bet should thin the field. In this case, the pot is, what, $25...so another $35 should do do the trick.

If you get a caller, and at best/worst, I'd suggest you'll only get one, then a c-bet of 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot should let him know you are serious.

1) $55

2) $24

And I do both of the above with all of 1010 - AA // AQs - AKo;

In the first case, what's the thinking behind making it so much preflop with this range? Are you building a pot for value or just looking to squeeze and take it down now? What are you going to do on the flop, especially if it misses you?


I think this is probably right - though if the initial raiser calls I can see Taggy Bigstack calling as well. Chances are that he's got a pp here, looking to hit a set, and in an already-big 3-way pot I wonder if he might actually have odds to call another $35-40 here.

It's for value, because we probably have the best hand when we hold any of the above. And people play bad at that level so you will be called by a much wider range of hands which you beat than you seem to think. There is already $25 in the pot so someone will call you most of the time "for value" and you get to play an inflated pot headsup with what is mostlikely the best hand.

The flop may hit us; it may not. It may have a favourable texture; it may not. We may have to check fold some of the time. Continuation bet some of the time; go for a checkraise some of the time. I don't know specifically what we are going to do postflop but that doesn't change the fact that we should be pumping it for value here.

You can't just be pumping it with AA or KK here either because then you become ridiculously easy to play against. Your range has to be wider so that you will get action and not have to just cooler people to win money.

And finally, the stacks are deep enough that we want to get a bit of money in before the flop - so our raise should be on the larger side.

Why do we have to let him know we are serious!!!!?????? WE HAVE AA!! Do you want to type "AA" in the fucking chat box so he knows EXACTLY what you have?? Do you not want him to believe that a weaker hand is best and pay you off?? If he has a weaker onepair hand or flops a draw or something do we not want him to stay in and chase while providing incorrect odds??

You need to think hard about your mentallity to the game. You win money by decieving your opponents and getting them to stack off with weaker holdings. Not by "defining your hand"; and "getting him off his draw"; or "betting to see where you're at".

Jesus.

Why do we have to let him know we are serious!!!!?????? WE HAVE AA!! Do you want to type "AA" in the fucking chat box so he knows EXACTLY what you have?? Do you not want him to believe that a weaker hand is best and pay you off?? If he has a weaker onepair hand or flops a draw or something do we not want him to stay in and chase while providing incorrect odds??

You need to think hard about your mentallity to the game. You win money by decieving your opponents and getting them to stack off with weaker holdings. Not by "defining your hand"; and "getting him off his draw"; or "betting to see where you're at".
am i right in thinking you're in this to the end regardless because you've got AA ?

Did you get out of the wrong side of bed this morning Lloyd?

NO!! That's not what I'm saying at all!! But I specifically want to play in such a way that makes it difficult for us to be put on AA at any given time. As such, we need to be wary of protecting our range and playing a number of hands in the same fashion so that we are hard to read and put our opponents to difficult decisions and get paid off when we are strong.

Saying that we should put out a big bet on every flop "to let him / them know we are serious" is ridiculous and is indicative of a thought process which is seriously flawed. Because, there are some very, very ugly flops that may come down which force us to turn AA into a bluff catcher. So we should never think that we are going to auto bet every single flop for 2 / 3's of the pot and our motivation for every decision we make should be to maximise our EV.

Remember:

- You should bet for value because you think weaker hands will call (this includes drawing hands which we want in but at the wrong price);
- You should bet for value if you think that you can get stronger hands to fold;

YOU SHOULD NEVER BET:

- For information;
- To define our hand;
- Because we are scared and want to make it impossible for any draw to continue and "win a small pot rather than lose a big one";

No, but it seems that reading this board tends to darken my mood a little.  :dontask:

But it's the perfect place for people like me to learn how to play a bit better.  Don't look at it as somewhere to come and get annoyed, you're helping :)

I like your post regarding this AA hand, it makes for an interesting approach towards the hand. I think I'll try it out later (assuming I get AA) but at the levels I play at (low levels) people play with all sorts muck and not raising with the hand or calling an initial raise will probably result in me posting a "How bad did I play this hand" followed by responses that I should have raised preflop.

He's not saying to flat call or not raise with AA, he's saying to reraise a decent amount.  Raising to $55 in the first instance and $24 in the second denies worse hands the correct odds to improve past your hand, and just as importantly narrows their hand range and makes the flop and turn much easier to play.

Please reread my post. I would rarely call in these spots preflop. I am fully suggesting that you pump the shit out of it preflop and make that raise nice and big precisely because people call with all sorts of garbage. However, I am suggesting that if your opponents are unknown you needn't have the notion that you are auto betting on EVERY single flop. All we can do is get the preflop right and protect our preflop range. Then take the flop as it comes and play from there.

The only times to flatcall raises with 1010+ pre is against regular opponents for the purposes of deception; making yourself harder to play against; protecting the times you call to setmine; etc, etc.

I have been playing a lot of full ring this month and nobody I've got pegged as a big winner 3 bets that much. When I started I thought these people are all nits let's 3 bet loads but you can't really have a 3 bet range that is wider than many of your opponents raising range. You just get trapped all the time.

Well, ok, we can narrow our range to JJ+ and AKo+ for online full ring. Who plays full ring these days anyway??  ;carlocitrone;


Six max what I have listed above would be my standard range. It would also be my range in most live tournament situations and in live 1 / 2 cash.

bunch of old nits like me  ;tk;

Good posts from Lloyd.

The 1st instance flat calling looks suicidal with the pot going multiway preflop and therefore difficult to play postflop. Therefore pump up and making it chunky (for value) as Lloyd says i would be doing this with a range that will vary between jj+ ak and 88+ aq+ depending on the table, hell if i think my fold equity is big enough here i might do it occasionally with random cards. I do play 6 max though and with the lower end of the range you just fold out everything but the hands that beat you at full ring.

The 2nd hand flat calling occasionally as a mix up looks ok, though i hardly ever do it. I often flat call 3 bets with aa/kk.

AA OOP: My first objective is to not lose a big pot.

Hand 1: Massive re-raise for me. I'd probably raise it right up to $75. Even raising up to $55 is giving good implied odds to the $1.1k stack who has a PP here.

Hand 2: I'm happy to flat call here sometimes- and raise his flop bet or even turn bet if you think he'll fire again. Alternatively re-raise but control the pot size, e.g. bet flop, c/c turn, bet (or c/c) river.

Never be disappointed to win small pots with AA

WRONG.

- With what hands does your objective become to win a big pot?

1) Making it $75 gives him better implied odds if he holds a pocket pair ducy? Because you now can be put on exactly AA and the bigger pot is going to be harder for you to get away from postflop;

2) Ya, the concepts of 3 betting preflop and value betting postflop are WAAAAAAAAY overrated;

 ;surrender;

Really? Thats a mighty big swipe to take.

You should never solely bet for information or "to see where you are" ever. It's a really fundamental point.

My views are probably a little skewed because I rarely play full table, but when I used to play 6-handed cash on a regular basis, my goal was always to trap someone who had an overpair smaller than mine, or, if I'm lucky, a hand like A-K or A-Q that has made top pair. Any other hands will either result in your Aces being outdrawn for a big loss, or them folding a weak hand post-flop and leaving you with a paltry pot.

My goal is to win a big pot, but also avoid losing a big one if my opponents are willing to raise pre-flop with unusual holdings. If that is the case, then I'll simply re-raise, but if I know the table to be relatively solid and just raising with expected hands, then I'll smooth call to disguise my hand. It's a risk, so I will only make the play if the pre-flop raise isn't small and that I'm sure there will only be the two of us in the pot.

This is a strategy that seemed to work for me, mainly because they couldn't put me on Aces and so tended to ship it if they did indeed have the overpair or made that top pair with something like A-K. If I re-raised pre-flop, then they'd put me on the overpair and be able to trap me or get away cheaply from a hand like Queens. I don't like telegraphing my hand if it can be helped, but sometimes you have no choice and simply have to re-raise, which I imagine you'd have to do more regularly on a full ring table due to the increased chances of being called behind. Alternatively, if you raise and are re-raised, then I'd fancy a flat call.

I'm probably in the minority here, but that was my approach.

So, like, did you ever 3 bet ever? If you were to 3 bet - what you 3 bet with? The above sounds sooo exploitable and transparent.

In truth, I didn't need to 3-bet too often, mainly in multi-way pots where I wanted to narrow the field. I think these situations are very much dependent on your opponents. It may sound exploitable and transparent to you, but then again, I wasn't playing you, and I'd make sure that my opponents weren't the type of players who would see through the transparency and exploit the situation. I guess that's why table selection is important. The approach worked for me, so I kept with it - players would often ship it in unhesitantly with just top pair (inc overpair) if I disguised my hand and flat-called, yet play cautiously if I re-raised. Again, this is 6-handed rather than full table. You also have to remember that if you don't re-raise with the range you suggested earlier (ie. perhaps smooth call with some of those hands instead), then when you do re-raise, you telegraph your hand even more.

Having said that, I see nothing wrong with the advice Lloyd has offered thus far.

But on almost every poker show I watch on TV the commentators tell us the players should do precisely that :)

Well yeah, lol, if you flatcall most of your range in most situations preflop it will have the same effect as three betting 88+ and AJs for similiar amounts againt most opens preflop. In both cases you will be playing a varying range of hands in terms of strength in a similiar fashion thus making it harder for your opposition to prigeon hole and narrow your range, because you are showing up with a lot of different stuff postflop on the basis of the same actions pre.

That said, such thinking goes against the grain. The edge of a good player is going to be better at 6 - max when you are playing re - raised pots against inferior opposition because you will be able to put them to tougher decisions and can figure to make less mistakes in pressure spots than they will. Therefore, the bigger the average potsize you play the bigger your hourly rate should be - assuming you are a winning player and play a large enough sample size to compensate for variance.

HINT: Most people who commentate on poker regularly aren't particularly good at poker. Gabe Kaplan being the exception that proves the rule. He's seriously good.

Not true. What about Colin Murray?

and Phil Tuffnell!

FFS Lloyd, thought you knew your stuff ;)

Sorry, I'm just learning the game. Thanks for the tips.

Just to clarify though; charging him more gives him better implied odds? So if, say, we pushed all-in, he'd be getting a great price then?

Also, if you don't mind helping me figure this out, if by charging him $75 pre-flop it only gives him just over 6/1 (or 7/1 if we only consider the additional $64 that we are charging) to flop a set and to remain ahead by the river how does he have sufficient odds when he really needs ~10/1?

As a complete novice I'm probably wrong [again] here, but it strikes me that your advice is better suited to 6-max play- and that you probably don't play a lot of $1/$2 full ring online. Along those same lines, in my very limited experience, I've always found that a 6-max style of play applied to full-ring is one of the quickest ways to get stacked regularly.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer me.

Of course his implied odds in terms of the rest of the money are effectively worse the bigger you raise preflop; however - the bigger you make it preflop the more certain he can be of taking the rest of the loot if he is holding 44 and the flop is 4xx. Because if you go $75 here your range is like, exactly AA. And if he has a lower pocket pair he can figure that you are going to stuggle to escape from a $190 pot postflop if he sets up on the flop. Particularly if he knows that you are going to c bet for at least $120 most of the time.

There can be the rest of the money left to go in which amounts to your theoretical implied odds - but there will always be a varying likelyhood that the rest of that money can go in on a later street. This will vary as per the situation. So:

- If you make it $75 his effective implied odds decrease; but the percentage chance that he gets paid off in full for the rest the times he hits gin significantly increase;

- If you make it $55 his effective implied odds decrease; but the percentage chance that you always go the full way when he hits gin decrease;

As such, the extreme of pushing in provides him with no implied odds obviously - but he can be absolutely certain of the gamble he is taking and what his expectation from the hand will be if he continues anyway.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, there is also the flipside of the coin - which is what do we want to make from the hand? I mean, yeah, we can make it $100 preflop satisfied that he has the incorrect implied odds to setmine and knowing that we either win what is in the middle if he folds or have played preflop unexploitably if he calls. That is unquestionably a winning play from our perspective. However, we will never win more than the $ he puts in preflop unless we are beat postflop or he is a complete and utter idiot. Or we set over set him.

So we are making an unexploitably profitable play - but we are not maximising our potential from the hand.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we make it $55, firstly we widen his perceptions of what we might have here (it is also important for us to actually make it $55 with things other than AA here for that reason). It becomes more likely that we will get a caller. And we do want a caller after all.

When he calls the pot will be smaller and there will be more money behind. So yes, in theory his implied odds are better if he flops gin - but we are hoping that we can play good enough postflop to fold at least some of the time that we get outflopped. And it will certaintly be easier for us to do that if there is $40 less in there going to the flop. But he may think of his bigger theoretical implied odds so now he:

- calls with a wider range of hands - making the mistake of calling some AJ+ hands; some connecting hands; some junk he finds pretty;

- becomes more likely to put money into the pot postflop when he is beat. Because he isn't exclusively setmining us; he may just talk us into having hands that suit him postflop and which he could beat on the basis of what he hits beacuse we don't always have AA here;

So, while our play is less unexploitable because we raised to a smaller amount preflop - and we may open ourselves to getting stacked with a greater frequency  - we also create the opportunity to win big pots off our opponent and stack them with a greater frequency!! So our expectation in terms of the overall money we will win from this type of spot in the long haul rises significantly.


Think of it like this: Assume 200 BB stacks. If you always just shoved all - in preflop when you got AA you would definitely show a profit over the long run. It would possibly be the lowest risk play you could make in poker. But while it would carry a very low risk; it would also carry a relatively low expectation in terms of chips won.

If you choose to raise 3x the BB instead, your risk increases significantly. But at the same time your expectation in terms of chips you will win from your opponent also rises. Your hand strength is such that you will always have a positive expectation in terms of chips with AA. And taking a flop headsup or three handed carries an element of risk. But we are gambling at the end of the day. Lets not fool ourselves. What we want to do is try and push the edges to maximise our expected winrate. Then just play an absolute load so that the variance we incur gets a chance to even itself out.


My ranges and perception of ranges may be off because I only play fullring cash live against drunks and droolers - but your mentallity and approach to situations doesn't really change because of the game format (or at least it shouldn't). You want to win money. And in order to do that you need to be willing to gamble (with an edge) and incur risk upon yourself. 

Excellent discussion you two.  :)up

We want more!!

Its supposed to be fun and a brighter mood makes for better communication. Good analysis on this one again :)

Good arguement Lloyd but this arguement that your opponents can put you squarely on aa, if you overraise pf I can't agree with. Firstly you are assuming that these are thinking players who actually try to assign a range and what your bet means, never mind implied odds, setmining etc. In breaking news most people are pretty poor at poker. Also in my experience overbets like this aren't aa generally but ak/jj type hands.

Great thread, but that quote sums it up for me.
aa seems when i play a min re-raise to keep players in.

So they're playing their own cards? Alright - are they more likely to call $55 or $75 if they have Ax suited // KQ - K10 // QJ - J10 // 22 - 88 // suited connectors?

I would imagine the small pairs looking to catch a miracle of course some players would call prefer kq here who knows and im actually in favour of making it a smaller re raise to $55 btw. My point is the larger 3 bet doesn't necessarily mean aces and that you get all kinds of level of thinkers in poker, some might think they do have good implied odds to stack you with a set as they only 7.5 to 1 to hit the flop, but they don't take into account that when you do this with ak you aren't stacking every flop or anywhere near it.

Reading the advice in this thread that I was largely aware of but had been subconcsiously ignoring for the last month or so really opened my eyes. Cheers to all contributors :).

Totally agree with LLoyd and his answers to why you should do this. Spot on

LOL

...in case anyone missed it. :)

lol.

lucky lloyd nailed this post except the 'u shouldnt bet for information' the whole game is about information, and the best way to gain info is to bet.

but i strongly agree with his pre flop plays. reraising too much pushes out the hands that pay you off, min raising is screaming i have AA now beat me with rags. also, if this is the 1st hand you have reraised all day then how do you get good players to pay you off? by opening up the range of hands you reraise with pf you gain value from hands that are usually infront, and make people pay you off when you have aces king and queens.

i also wonder what ppl are waiting for when they dont want to play big pots with aces. sure, you might get outdrawn, but thats variance, not getting value for hands is what stops many players moving up the levels.

Once you understand the difference in approach that is required between mid-stake FR cash and shorter-handed cash games then you will no longer have to wonder.

Extracting value for winning hands is easy. Extracting value for winning hands whilst also minimising losses with 2nd best hands is a little harder.

i realise this, but to not like building a pot in any position with AA isnt what i would call extracting value. just b/c i have built a pot doesnt mean i dont slow down on flops or even fold to minimise losses if i am beat. this hand came up whilst i am writing this post

GAME #750275996: Texas Hold'em NL $10.00/$20.00 2007-12-07 17:46:06
Table Emmitsburg
Seat 1: bergsgard ($682.50 in chips) DEALER
Seat 3: Schism1 ($1,917.00 in chips)
Seat 5: FamousBoy ($2,315.50 in chips)
Seat 6: geenetic ($2,057.00 in chips)
Seat 8: boomber1 ($3,069.00 in chips)
Seat 10: Najammaq ($2,552.50 in chips)
Schism1: Post SB $10.00
FamousBoy: Post BB $20.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to geenetic [SK DK]
Dealt to boomber1 [SA HA]
Dealt to Najammaq [DJ CJ]
geenetic: Raise $70.00
boomber1: Raise $160.00
Najammaq: Call $160.00
bergsgard: Fold
Schism1: Fold
FamousBoy: Fold
geenetic: Raise $460.00
boomber1: Call $370.00
Najammaq: Call $370.00
*** FLOP *** [S6 SJ H2]
geenetic: Check
boomber1: Bet $720.00
Najammaq: Call $720.00
geenetic: Fold
*** TURN *** [D6]
boomber1: Allin $1,819.00
Najammaq: Allin $1,302.50
*** RIVER *** [D7]
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6,178.50 Rake $3.00
boomber1: wins $516.50
Najammaq: wins $5,662.00

now obv this isnt too hard a fold, and pf i nearly just flat called for set value (but boomer has done this type of raise b4 with less than AA so i decided to find out where i was pf). but  i am still not afraid to build a pot and rely on my reads on my opponants and their betting patterns and use that information to make a decision post flop. my point being preflop u have the nuts, u need to get value from this.

secondly, yes there is a difference between 6 handed and fr. but PREFLOP OOP there is no difference in your aims when u have AA. you want a caller and u want a built pot (the amount you have to charge to get this may differ). if u have got this then u will win far more often that not. its far better stacking off to a set or a flopped 2pair when you have charge them more by building a pot.

i think in my original post i made the mistake of refering to the term 'playing big pots with aces', rather than the one have used here 'building big pots with aces' as the 1st term implies that i am going to play the pot out regardless of board or player info. the 2nd really has more emphasis on preflop play then post, however, it does follow that once you have built your pot preflop later decisions have more value associated with them

In that case, we are in agreement. Obviously you (generally) want to build as big as pot as possible when you have the nuts.

I'm not sure what is worse, boober1's min raise or his flat call of the 4-bet with another player to act behind!