AA deep and oop

[Moskvich]

I've had two situations in my last couple of sessions where I've been dealt AA in the blinds when very deep stacked, and am facing a raise - and it's left me a bit unsure of what to do. What's your thought process in these spots - what's the primary aim, to maybe win a big pot, or to control pot size? Do you reraise, and if so how much? Or just flat call and hopefully play a smaller pot deceptively?

Both 1/2 nl, 9-handed.

1st occasion I'm in the blinds with about $550. There's been a limp, a raise to $11 from a $380 stack who's playing something like 30/10. Monster stack (about $1100) has flat called the $11. He's uber tag, playing about 10/5.

2nd occasion is simpler - I've got about $380, there's a raise to $6 from a similar stack playing about 28/8.

What do you do and why?

(No bad beats to tell here, by the way...)

[Graham C]

I don't think it's too bad to call and bet out on the flop providing there's only one other in the pot.  I don't like to play aces with more than two people in the pot.   

I normally reraise with aces regardless though, normally doubling the initial raise.  With 3 people involved I'd stick it up to 2.5 - 3 times the bet.

Looking forward to some decent replies too!

[Paullie_D]

I don't think it's too bad to call and bet out on the flop providing there's only one other in the pot.  I don't like to play aces with more than two people in the pot.   

I normally reraise with aces regardless though, normally doubling the initial raise.  With 3 people involved I'd stick it up to 2.5 - 3 times the bet.

Looking forward to some decent replies too!

Completely agree...a good old fashioned pot sized bet should thin the field. In this case, the pot is, what, $25...so another $35 should do do the trick.

If you get a caller, and at best/worst, I'd suggest you'll only get one, then a c-bet of 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot should let him know you are serious.

[LuckyLloyd]

1) $55

2) $24

And I do both of the above with all of 1010 - AA // AQs - AKo;

[Moskvich]

1) $55

2) $24

And I do both of the above with all of 1010 - AA // AQs - AKo;

In the first case, what's the thinking behind making it so much preflop with this range? Are you building a pot for value or just looking to squeeze and take it down now? What are you going to do on the flop, especially if it misses you?

If you get a caller, and at best/worst, I'd suggest you'll only get one, then a c-bet of 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot should let him know you are serious.

I think this is probably right - though if the initial raiser calls I can see Taggy Bigstack calling as well. Chances are that he's got a pp here, looking to hit a set, and in an already-big 3-way pot I wonder if he might actually have odds to call another $35-40 here.

[LuckyLloyd]

It's for value, because we probably have the best hand when we hold any of the above. And people play bad at that level so you will be called by a much wider range of hands which you beat than you seem to think. There is already $25 in the pot so someone will call you most of the time "for value" and you get to play an inflated pot headsup with what is mostlikely the best hand.

The flop may hit us; it may not. It may have a favourable texture; it may not. We may have to check fold some of the time. Continuation bet some of the time; go for a checkraise some of the time. I don't know specifically what we are going to do postflop but that doesn't change the fact that we should be pumping it for value here.

You can't just be pumping it with AA or KK here either because then you become ridiculously easy to play against. Your range has to be wider so that you will get action and not have to just cooler people to win money.

And finally, the stacks are deep enough that we want to get a bit of money in before the flop - so our raise should be on the larger side.

[LuckyLloyd]

I don't think it's too bad to call and bet out on the flop providing there's only one other in the pot.  I don't like to play aces with more than two people in the pot.   

I normally reraise with aces regardless though, normally doubling the initial raise.  With 3 people involved I'd stick it up to 2.5 - 3 times the bet.

Looking forward to some decent replies too!

Completely agree...a good old fashioned pot sized bet should thin the field. In this case, the pot is, what, $25...so another $35 should do do the trick.

If you get a caller, and at best/worst, I'd suggest you'll only get one, then a c-bet of 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot should let him know you are serious.

Why do we have to let him know we are serious!!!!??? WE HAVE AA!! Do you want to type "AA" in the fucking chat box so he knows EXACTLY what you have?? Do you not want him to believe that a weaker hand is best and pay you off?? If he has a weaker onepair hand or flops a draw or something do we not want him to stay in and chase while providing incorrect odds??

You need to think hard about your mentallity to the game. You win money by decieving your opponents and getting them to stack off with weaker holdings. Not by "defining your hand"; and "getting him off his draw"; or "betting to see where you're at".

Jesus.

[TEX FITZ]

Why do we have to let him know we are serious!!!!??? WE HAVE AA!! Do you want to type "AA" in the fucking chat box so he knows EXACTLY what you have?? Do you not want him to believe that a weaker hand is best and pay you off?? If he has a weaker onepair hand or flops a draw or something do we not want him to stay in and chase while providing incorrect odds??

You need to think hard about your mentallity to the game. You win money by decieving your opponents and getting them to stack off with weaker holdings. Not by "defining your hand"; and "getting him off his draw"; or "betting to see where you're at".

am i right in thinking you're in this to the end regardless because you've got AA ?

[Graham C]

Did you get out of the wrong side of bed this morning Lloyd?

[LuckyLloyd]

Why do we have to let him know we are serious!!!!??? WE HAVE AA!! Do you want to type "AA" in the fucking chat box so he knows EXACTLY what you have?? Do you not want him to believe that a weaker hand is best and pay you off?? If he has a weaker onepair hand or flops a draw or something do we not want him to stay in and chase while providing incorrect odds??

You need to think hard about your mentallity to the game. You win money by decieving your opponents and getting them to stack off with weaker holdings. Not by "defining your hand"; and "getting him off his draw"; or "betting to see where you're at".

am i right in thinking you're in this to the end regardless because you've got AA ?

NO!! That's not what I'm saying at all!! But I specifically want to play in such a way that makes it difficult for us to be put on AA at any given time. As such, we need to be wary of protecting our range and playing a number of hands in the same fashion so that we are hard to read and put our opponents to difficult decisions and get paid off when we are strong.

Saying that we should put out a big bet on every flop "to let him / them know we are serious" is ridiculous and is indicative of a thought process which is seriously flawed. Because, there are some very, very ugly flops that may come down which force us to turn AA into a bluff catcher. So we should never think that we are going to auto bet every single flop for 2 / 3's of the pot and our motivation for every decision we make should be to maximise our EV.

Remember:

- You should bet for value because you think weaker hands will call (this includes drawing hands which we want in but at the wrong price);
- You should bet for value if you think that you can get stronger hands to fold;

YOU SHOULD NEVER BET:

- For information;
- To define our hand;
- Because we are scared and want to make it impossible for any draw to continue and "win a small pot rather than lose a big one";

[LuckyLloyd]

Did you get out of the wrong side of bed this morning Lloyd?

No, but it seems that reading this board tends to darken my mood a little. 

[Graham C]

But it's the perfect place for people like me to learn how to play a bit better.  Don't look at it as somewhere to come and get annoyed, you're helping

I like your post regarding this AA hand, it makes for an interesting approach towards the hand. I think I'll try it out later (assuming I get AA) but at the levels I play at (low levels) people play with all sorts muck and not raising with the hand or calling an initial raise will probably result in me posting a "How bad did I play this hand" followed by responses that I should have raised preflop.

[WellChief]

He's not saying to flat call or not raise with AA, he's saying to reraise a decent amount.  Raising to $55 in the first instance and $24 in the second denies worse hands the correct odds to improve past your hand, and just as importantly narrows their hand range and makes the flop and turn much easier to play.

[LuckyLloyd]

I like your post regarding this AA hand, it makes for an interesting approach towards the hand. I think I'll try it out later (assuming I get AA) but at the levels I play at (low levels) people play with all sorts muck and not raising with the hand or calling an initial raise will probably result in me posting a "How bad did I play this hand" followed by responses that I should have raised preflop.

Please reread my post. I would rarely call in these spots preflop. I am fully suggesting that you pump the shit out of it preflop and make that raise nice and big precisely because people call with all sorts of garbage. However, I am suggesting that if your opponents are unknown you needn't have the notion that you are auto betting on EVERY single flop. All we can do is get the preflop right and protect our preflop range. Then take the flop as it comes and play from there.

The only times to flatcall raises with 1010+ pre is against regular opponents for the purposes of deception; making yourself harder to play against; protecting the times you call to setmine; etc, etc.

[byronkincaid]

And I do both of the above with all of 1010 - AA // AQs - AKo

I have been playing a lot of full ring this month and nobody I've got pegged as a big winner 3 bets that much. When I started I thought these people are all nits let's 3 bet loads but you can't really have a 3 bet range that is wider than many of your opponents raising range. You just get trapped all the time.