blonde poker forum

Hello blonde poker! Tighty has asked me to take up the reigns of the Tournament Hand of the Week so here i am, this should be quite fun given i nearly always disagree with the majority of people on the PHA board about hands so hopefully we can spark some good discussions. So then i present to you my first HOTW:


The Tournament Details:

Event: EPT London Main Event £5000+£200

Starting Stack: 10,000

Prize Pool/Runners:  £1,960,000/392

Blinds: 200/400/50

Average Chips: ~18,000



Our Current Situation:

I have managed to find myself on 28,000 and chip leader on the table. This particular table is far weaker than the tournament average so i have been looking to take advantage, the 3 players to my right are all tight aggressive, the 3 players behind me are weak passive and the only good player is the last of the 8 seats, he is an active scandanavian but we have managed to avoid each other for the tournament so far. In general most pots are me or him vs someone else on the table.

For the last 30 minutes or so you have been smacked in the face by the deck, although you have gone to no showdowns so your table image is extremely active, you have raised and won 13 of the last 30 hands.


The hand itself:


You are UTG+1 and find   Aspades Kc

Adam Heller limps UTG, he has been playing a very tight aggressive game up to this point but you know he is capable of doing a whole lot more. You and he have played a long session of PLO cash before although its likely to have escaped his mind due to the enjoyment of alcohol. During that session he showed he is capable of playing super loose aggressive.

He is playing a stack of 20,000.



I decided to raise to 1400, everyone else folds when it gets back to Adam he flat calls. Does anyone adopt a different line pre flop? How does your table image change your raising range in EP facing a UTG limp? What range of hands do you put Adam on?


The flop comes  Ac 9h 5h


Adam checks the flop, what action do you take from here?

(http://www.talklfc.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/ban.gif)

wb flushy....

OK...

first of all..he's playing Tight and didn't reraise you pre-flop even though he is OOP. He might have a very big hand and think that either you or the Scandyman is bound to raise it up but I'm thinking he has medium hand here. (we'll find out on the flop though if he realy does hold a monster) He probably wouldn't go set-mining against one player so that justabout rules out small pairs for me. As he is playing a tight game and has 2 LAG's on the table to act behind him he shouldn't be playing suited connectors from that position.

I'd put him on AQ (suited)+ or TT-QQ from the pre-flop action.

I raise on the flop especially because of my image..hell, it's what you've been raiing a lot for.
1400 is fine.

On the flop I continue to bet..2k-2.5k in this case.

btw..anyone wanna run a book on how long it will take Flushy to get banned after he gets frustrated with people posting stupid analysis (not unlike the one above) on here ;) ?

Given your image, I think this is a great spot to raise pre. Infact, I think not raising here would be pretty silly if your Vpip for the last three orbits is circa 43%.

In terms of a range of hands to put him on I think it really depends on the type of player he is; what kind of thought level he is on. On a very basic assessment, limp calling UTG from a stack of 50BBs seems pretty spewy irrespective of what hand he actually has. If he is not clueless, we shouldn't see many Ax hands here. Or suited connectors. My initial thought would be a pair, 22 - 99 or 1010. If he had limped JJ+ or AK (unlikely as it is) he would surely get the reraise in given your level of activity.

But people play bad and do silly things so he may turn up with a lot of stuff he technically shouldn't in this spot.

That flop is obv good for you. Again, your image should be such that he is going to have a hard time believing you. I would bet 2600 for value. And I would be reluctant to give up here if he checkraises.

welcome back Flushy

C-bet the flop 2,200 or so, not least because of the presence of two hearts.

Your image is active so he may be trying to trap but at this stage of the comp he really has no need to play it cute OOP pre or post flop

I think I'd rather put him on a medium pair than a monster starting hand at this point


You'll only have any clues to this if he chooses to check-raise you

:hello:

I'd make a bet on the flop of around 2.4k but it's difficult to say what matey may be on until we see how he reacts to the bet. 

Hopefully he is on a pair or AT+.

Preflop I'd have raised the same at this level. 

Hi James,
Preflop I play it as played.

So now we need to put him on a hand and dependant on that proceed...

(a) Given your A and the A on the board I'm removing him holding AA.

(b) His image and position makes me believe the only Ax holding he has would be AK or AQ, (not AJ).

(c) I think KK re-raises you preflop.

(d) Just slightly concerned that if he is AK/AQ he may have flopped the Flush draw.

So therefore put him on AK AQ QQ JJ TT 99 88.

On that basis I'm betting 3.2k and hoping that we don't see Q, J or T on the turn....if we get that far.

Question is what is his action to our 3.2k bet?

Well being the fish I am I have already decided that I'm ahead, (the 99 pocks if held will hurt), and that he has at best a 3 outer with AQ  and the outs for a flush draw.

If he repops you here I'm all in.

If he flat calls the 3.2k I'm really not wanting to see a Q, J, T on the turn. Btw the flat call means I'm not too bothered about a heart now because I think he would fired all in with the TP and nut flush draw on the flop.

*waits patiently for flop action by villian*



Edit: All this is without knowing at the time it was gonna turn into THOTW lol.... summats got get tricky!

If he's got anything on that flop is he going to be re-raising you, or will he look to be calling your bets assuming that you're just c-betting without necessarily having a great hand? 

If he's flopped a monster, he might be looking to check, let you lead out with a bet and just flat call you - expecting you to again bet out on the turn.  If he's hit the flop, but not massively or has a monster draw, then I think he'll be check-raising you.

At this stage his range for you must be fairly wide. 

Looking foward to part deux.

Welcome back Flushy.

Looks pretty standard thus far, raising preflop over the limper with this hand looks like the only standard way to play it, irrespective of image. 1400 is the least i would make it, i might make it 1600 or 1800 but this is nit picking really.

His range i think is biased toward pairs 22-AA, though i think the vunerable big pairs jj and qq are less likely as he probably would play them faster. Of course other hands are possible Ax, suited connectors.

On the flop i do c-bet even though i believe this flop is bad one for this range with the a on the board. I make it about 2.5k because of our image and his likely to disbelieve our bet and peel one off with a pair. Especially if it is kk-1010.

I feel this hand has some more interesting decisions to come but im already thinking of felting this irrespective of his action.

Interesting....

Llyod says he continues in the face of a check raise, what line do you take against a check raise? Flat and call a turn push or 3 bet AI?

Tighty you allude to a check raise but what do you do if you get one, say he trebles your bet?

Sol says he jams to a check raise.

Longy, Kin, Silo and Boldie what do you do against a CR?

I think I've still got a good chance of being ahead of a check-raise.  Would be far more worried if he just called your bet on the flop.

Do you raise him, or just call and re-evaluate on the turn, with the benefit of position?

The more I think about this the more a horrible feeling is growing that if he CRs you that he is AK h's and is gonna be free rolling..... :o

well tbh I'm sort of expecting him to check raise here, it was what I thought when I first read it

Say you bet 2.5k and he makes it 7.5k

That's a tough spot as he could be contending that you are c-betting with air given your Vpip and general image.

If he does CR, calling isn't an option for me unless I commit to calling a big turn bet ( as you are unlikely to improve, and you'll see a lot of scare cards )

Faced with the choice of pushing (3 bet is all in in effect) or folding I'll widen his range here to reflect his view of your image and be prepared to go with it by pushing.

and probably stack off to  Ahrt Qh or something 

He's back!!!  ;yippee;

(http://www.innocentenglish.com/funny-pics/lolcats/high-five-kitty.jpg)

Extremely thinly disguised "I played a £5200 event" post :)

i fold.

minimum set.

cheers

vince

I'm always wary of raising in EP but your hand is in the range i would. i'd deffo raise here and fold to a reraise from the limper purely because it isn't worth the risk of him having a bigger hand.
The trouble with his flat all is that there is no clue to what he has except that it's very unlikely he has KK QQ JJ.
He's more likely to have small to mid PP or suited connectors (i'd favour the latter).
So he checks, i often find in this situation a continuation bet is raised so the question for me is can i call a reraise?
Or do i check and give him bad odds on a non heart turn?
I think the standard is to continuation  bet and see what he does but i'm going to check and let him think i don't like the ace and catch him on the turn.

I think the check here is v ugly play - no way am I giving him free cards. Even if he CRs you to say 7.5k there is still just enough FE in an all in to say "f*ck off I've a monster"... I want to do everything I can NOT to see the turn imo.



Thinly disguised 2p2 'hater' post.....  ;whistle;

if he check raises (which he can do with a massive range here) I'd be in there.

Yeah I think I'd be all in if he check raises.  I'd hate it though, just not sure I'd be able to fold here.

It's a bit like Mantis's hand the other week, hitting trips on the flop and slow playing them - is he doing that?  If he comes over the top, I don't think so. If he comes over the top, I'd put him on either AK, AQ or KK and move in.   

Incidentally, I did the slow play trips thing at the GUKPT and it was a great move (for me) as I went on to hit a full house.  Sadly, the other guy knew exactly what I had and didn't pay me off, he saw I was itching to be on the flop :D  Thanks for that thread though, the advice was appreciated :)

Anyway, back on subject,

If he calls then checks again on non heart turn, I'd be a bit more concerned and more than likely check behind him.

he wouldn't play trips like this..against a known LAG you bet out knowing that he is likely to re-raise you so if you have a big hand you make Laggie pay you off. I fully expect to be ahead here more often than not.

If he c/raises i dont think i can pass... But if he makes it 7.5k i think i just flat call it - if you shove the flop he doesnt fold his heart draw anyway with so much invested and if he is on a complete bluff he may think he can take you off it with a shove into you on the turn. Whereas if you 3bet the flop he will fold a complete bluff... Think that makes some sense, probly not tho.

makes sense. Im willing to go bust in this spot with this image.

Pre and flop are standard, defence against c/r isnt needed, im not worried about a set enough to pass here. Flat and let him hang himself on turn with AQ.

Hi  Mr Dempsey too. Im using your money to pay my bills :) sweet.

Reading this back I have to say I like Rookies line. When I said "if he check raises" I was thinking of him pushing all-in (which is a very easy call for me as with the image you have he never expects you to actually have a big hand here). If he checkraises to 7.5k I let him hang himself on the turn and I'll flatcall on the flop.

Would you do that on any combination of turn card/betting or would some make you change your mind?

Well yes..if he leads out on the flop..and I were to re-raise him and he pushed all his chips in the middle that would make me think twice about what I'm facing.
Realistically has can only have a few hands he could do that with.

5's, 9's and nutflush draw (he could be representing them of course but effectively they are the only hads that are realistically killing me now. I ruled out that he was set mining with 5's in my first post. I also don't take him for 9's there but he could have that. so the only 2 hands I would fear here are 9's and the FD. I'll take that shot so I'm always betting/raising here. if he pushes to my re-raise I'd have to consider.

Wb Flushy

I think the first thing that i do is amke a bigger raise preflop. Im quite happy to lose a few more chips at this stage to buy me more info and to save me chips for futher down the line.
If he hadnt limped utg how much would you of raised. He is calling 1000 into a 2400 pot so i dont feel i have enough info on his hand.

After the flop i consider checking behind him.  i have hit my flop there is a good chance that he passes to a contination bet. If you check the flop and the turn comes a non-dangerous card there is a high chance that he will bet it for you.

If i do decide to bet the flopim with rookie and smooth call the check raise if it comes. There is a chance he has flopped a set here and wanted to see the flop for cheap with his pocket pair.

Call regardless.

Sorry, I mean once you have called the theoretical check raise on the flop, would you always be calling on the turn regardless of what comes/what he does?

Good question. If a high heart (AKQ) comes down then always yes. (As the only FD I am putting him on is a good nut flush so AK AQ).
I wouldn't mind seeing what he'd do on a low-heart turn as very few people bet out with the nut-flush.

If he bets out on a non-heart turn than I'd have to say yes as I can't confidently put him on pocket 9's (I'm just not that good in a real life situation) (which is the only hand he could then realistically have that beats me and everything else he could have I'm ahead of)

Wanted to type a proper reply before I left home this evening but I ran out of time. So in the meantime I will just post to say that I agree with the line rookie takes against a check raise, we still go bust against sets but maxamise the chances he is bluffing. This is a highly important point those of you who said 3 bet AI are missing a lot of value in these spots although I appreciate that most people posting in the thread are unfamiliar with having this table image, except rookie and jim who opt for the flat call.

I will reveal my action later tonight so mad can read it in the morning :-)

im overbetting the pot here

there is roughly 3400 in the pot

im firing 5000 into it rite now


1.you have one pair.....if he has A rag ,he can catch you (with a freak 2 pair )..you may be vulnerable

2. if he has a set,he may and probably will refire back at you...your good enough to lay it down

3.If he has nothing , so be it..were you gonna extract any more with an ace on the flop?

4. your image if u play for value may work against you ( slowplaying )


ermmm if he just flat calls  then I can only say.....errrrr......and leave it up to your hand reading skills to see where  you are


( I havent read the replys yet .I'm about to and am probably well off the mark )

Hi Bhoywonder,

I would suggest the above is quite incorrect and you are possibly applying some flawed thought processes to this hand.

Overbetting the pot is generally incorrect as it makes it near impossible for players to continue against you with worse hands. Remember, if he is on a flushdraw here we would like him in the hand. The entire point of poker is to get the most value from your opponents when you have the best hand; and lose the least when you have the worst hand. The way to do this is to bet enough so that your opponents will call your bet WHILE MAKING A MISTAKE. This isn't terribly easy a lot of the time I will admit - and I remember a time where I was scared to see more cards and wanted to end hands as soon as possible because I was afraid of getting dogged. If we bet 2200 we create the possibility that our opponent decides to continue with a worse one pair hand; continue with a draw; think that we are just continuation betting a missed flop and are weak. As such, we make it possible for our opponent to call a worse hand because they think they are ahead; or raise a worse hand because they think we might fold.

Finally, remember that it is important for us to bet a lot of hands and lead out on this flop some of the time when we don't have TPTK and could not continue to aggression from our opponent. We will need to win pots without good cards and, as such, we need to balance our play and can't just overbet here because we have a strong hand and don't wish to get outdrawn; and bet less or give up the times we have weaker hands. This would make us very predictable and easy to play against. And we would be unlikely to have much success unless we hit lots and lots of good hands and boards.


Now, your other points:

1) If he has a weaker Ace he only has three outs. It is incredibly unlikely that he will outdraw us with only two cards to come. As such, we really want to keep him in the hand. It would be a disaster if we folded him out. So betting about 2 / 3 of the pot is preferable here. Particularly given our aggressive image;

2) It would be very unprofitable for us to bet 5k to win 3.5k with the intention of folding to a further reraise. Yes, if we bet 5k and he goes all in we may very well be facing a set in such a scenario. But there is no reason to think he must have a set given the preflop action. There are many hands in his range here and we need to make the play that is most optimal against ALL of the hands he may be folding. So, making it 5k and folding to a CRAI may save us money against a set. But it loses chips from everything else and will reduce our expectation over time;

3) Yes. Given our aggressive image there is a distinct possibility that he calls a bet or two if he has a weaker Ace; a pocket pair. He will at least call the bet if he has flopped a flushdraw. We can definitely win chips here from weaker hands - and our hand is very strong;

4) If we bet out at this flop for 2200 we aren't slowplaying. We are playing normally for value. We are just keeping our play deceptive and balanced; and helping to widen the range of hands our opponent can reasonably and logically wish to continue with;

I hope this helps. Good luck.

Bhoy i read your post whilst i was playing in the Brighton festival tonight and was forming a reply in my head whilst in the cash game, only to come on here and find a perfect answer. Lloyd i read your PHA posts during my hiatus and i have to say i don't think as yet i have disagreed with a single point you have made on this board, are you my twin?

So my action.....


I felt that i could well be played back at on this hand, the timing seemed right and the player was very capable. I was also aware i could easily walk into a big hand in this pot, as such i would have a lot of difficulty dealing with a check raise, basically i would have no idea what i was facing either a hand or a move. Given this situation i wanted to try to control the pot, but also still get action for my monster hand. To do this i thought a good line would be checking the flop to further under represent my hand and also keep the pot smaller. This meant i thought i could play the hand without risking all my stack and also yet again increase my opponents bluff potential, a very desirable situation when we have 1 pair!

So when Adam checked i checked behind.


The turn card came  3d

A perfect card keeping the board near perfect for AK.

Adam sat and thought for about a minute and checked the turn, this time i decided now was the time to give him the potential to hang himself and i fired out 2.8k, he dwelt for another minute and then raised to 7k. Although i was making my play to optimise the chance he plays back at me it is still the first time he has done so all tournament and i am now still stuck with a decision. I was expecting him to pass here nearly all the time. So now the question is fold? (You can obviously guess this is not the line i took by my earlier thought process but it is still a possible course of action. A set is still possible) Call? or Raise?

There are strong arguments for both calling and raising now in this situation as it is not a very common spot, i look forward to reading explanations and arguments for both actions during the course of tomorrow. I wonder if anyone can persuade me to opt now for the opposite option to the one i chose as its a pretty thin decision either way.

nothing changed on the turn. In fact it's even more likely now that he thinks you're at it. Flatcall here (as Rookie suggested on the flop if you had bet and he's check-raised you) and let him hang himself on the river.

SICK!!

There are a number of problems with this spot, namely folding to the turn checkraise is a hard thing to do - almost impossible. However, if you call:

- The pot will be 17800 and he will only have 11600 behind meaning you get ~ 2.5 / 1 if (WHEN - if he's good) he shoves the river;

- When you call here you are never floating or drawing and you rarely have better than one pair. Your hand will begin to look exactly like what it is because the maths of the situation will throw your image or previous play out the window. A decent hand reader will realise that your line is now heavily weighted towards AK - AJ;

If you shove now he never calls worse; never folds better.


You see, thing is that this turn checkraise can be a set, a flushdraw or badugi. Our previous play at the table indicates that we  will fire at this turn with basically our whole range if he checks to us. So it's actually a great spot for him:

- If he has air or a flushdraw he can checkraise knowing that it is a horrible spot for us and we can only actually continue most times with the strong part of our range - and definitely expect that he gets plenty of better hands to fold;

- If he has a set he can checkraise knowing that he gets enough money in the pot to set up a very profitable value shove on all rivers. He'll know that we get put in a horrible spot with A10 - AK the times we have it; and if we have air and can't continue he has comfortably extracted an extra bet from us on the turn;

And the best part is that he can shove all of his air, flushdraw, two pair+ hands on the river very profitably. And it really isn't very profitable for us no matter what we do given the price we will be getting on the end.

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All of that said, the above thinking assumes this guy is good. If:

- He's bad enough to do this with a one pair bluff catcher;
- He's bad enough to make this play with a flushdraw and checkfold the river when he misses;
- He's bad enough to do something other than shoving the river with two pair plus after we call the turn;

Then I would feel great about a turn call. The better he is; the wider his range; and the more balanced his play: the more exploitable our position is. And the more I actually would like to fold the turn, making sure we don't show and lie about what we have. Seriously.

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Finally, this spot is ridiculously sick. I mean awful, horrible, throw up sick.

tut, back two minutes and you're already insulting members of the forum.

As for the turn check raise, you can't really fold this as your hand is so under-represented (unless you have a very strong read on Adam that he has a big hand here.) He is likely to check raise you with a reasonably wide range given your table image.

Whether you call or push all depends how likely he is to fire a 2nd barrel at the river. When you call the turn the pot has got to the stage where it is fairly hard for him to push you off most hands on the river as you clearly have something reasonable so I would lean towards him giving up quite often when his check raise on the turn fails.

As this is the case, I would probably shove the turn now. I guess it might mean he can find a fold with an ace, but I don't think that makes up a big part of his range. Shoving means you either get him to make a bad call with a draw, or fold out those hands that wont pay you off/ bluff that often on the river unless they improve to a winner.

This is all a bit above me, I think in much simpler terms, but it's a fascinating read, & a great insight to how "proper" players play.

But I can't get past Step 1 yet. We made it 1,400 (at 200-400) after URG had already limped. So we underbet this - & we did so, if I understand the thread correctly, deliberately.

In your spot, I'd have either.....

a) Raised "properly" - made it about 2,000, thus asking a decent question & hopefully get a decent clarification of where we are. Maybe we would have been spared these difficult problems on the Turn if we'd bet properly pre-flop?

b) Limped. Now, I can see everyone throwing their arms up in horror at limping, after an UTG Limper, with AK, but it does have it's merits - because it un-nerves HIM, too. AND it helps control the Pot size. And enables me, be it on street 1 or 2, to get away cheaper if it starts to smell sussy.

But over & above all that, I love this notion of the balance between winning a little with low risk, & turning up the Risk-Dial & optimising what we can win. It's a bit advanced, & risky for me - I try to minimise the "gamble" - but that's the beauty of the game, we all run at it from different angles. And get different results. But for me, I just can't consider the notion of deliberately "teasing" my UTG Oppo into the hand when I have AK. I EITHER want to see where we are, OR limit our loss/win by limping, & leaving myself an escape route.

i"t is still the first time he has done so all tournament and i am now still stuck with a decision"


Oooh I knew summat was gonna happen lol but this is a particularly brutal position... given your flop check you don't really have that much pain invested in the pot - I give it up here.


TK - when you limp with AK do you bring your own vaseline?

Early in a Tourney, I almost always limp with AK. It works best for me, I get seriously paid if I hit - nobody expects anyone to limp with AK - and I can get off it cheaply if need be, but later in the Tourney, I bully strongly with it. The dificult part (for me) is the stage where Flushy had it - early to mid-comp. Added to which, I'm not comfortable playing down the streets, whereas Flushy is. So I play it very different, but I still don't like his 1,400 opener, it's neither here nor there.

m8boy has 33.

I sometimes limp with AK early on in a tournament too. I don't see the need to get too excited when the pots aren't that great and it more than likely won't make a significant difference to me picking up the blinds.

Given the action taken on the flop, I'm not sure how the 3d changes things here.  OK you've been check raised on the turn, but weren't we expecting that on the flop?  It's a 'harmless' card in the structure of the board cards so I don't see how your position can change.  Would the guy not be waiting for you to bet before raising? Wanting to extract more money for his AQ ( ;) )

If you were going to push to a check raise on the flop, I can't see how you can pass now.  There's probably not going to be a  better time to do it, so move all in here.

This has to been seen in the context of the tourney....we're not in a $10 mtt fishfest here.

TPTK is just so not what I'm gonna go to town with here. I'm folding and sit with still 33% better than average stack.

This is the reason i checked the flop behind, because i think i'm ahead and i'm trying to induce the bluff.
So this is pretty much where i wanted to be (i woulda reraised if he led the turn) so i can only  shove here and be shown a monster!!
Seriously the point is to show a dislike for the ace on the flop, show weakness to get into this spot.
No point checking the flop if you're not going all the way now.
I still think he has suited connectors, flush draw and gutshot.

I'd agree with this..I just can't get away from the hand now. I still think he'll only have 99 that's killing me.

I must so be the Melvyn Hayes of poker...

I think I am the Isaac Hayes of poker..he doesn't know who Melvyn Hayes is either ;)

Tikay, the problem with an approach of raising to 2000 pre to try and define where we are in the hand is that we are liable to receive incorrect or misleading information. Becuase of our current image and the frequency with which we have been putting money into the pot - If our opponent was to limp, shove on us we could not fold; because we would have to assume that he is willing to do that with much more than just AA and KK at this point in time.

Equally, an extra 600 should not change is decision to call or fold that much preflop. It is hard to imagine that his range for limp, calling 1400 is hugely different to what he will limp, call 2k for. I mean, he shouldn't limp, call anything here ffs - so if he's willing to do it with any hand he'll prolly play for an extra blind and a half.

And it logically follows that even if we had put in an extra 1200 chips between us preflop he is going to play postflop against us more or less the same - again as our image and his expectation of our range will still be the same on the basis of the past 30 hands irrespective of our raise size preflop in this hand.

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What making it 1400 does allow you to do though is play a smaller pot postflop with more money behind. The more of an edge we think we have and the more comfortable in our game we feel - the better this should be for us. Yes, we may have to make slightly tougher decisions on the turn or river sometimes - but we have to have the confidence to believe that we will play pressure spots better than villain. So the more room we have to manouevre the better.

We will flop no pair no draw a lot; hate the flop a lot; and want to give up a lot postflop a lot. So the less money in there the better. Also, the less it will cost to make a 2 / 3 pot continuation bet in the hopes he folds against us the times we have missed.

Also, you may dismiss the idea of balancing your play and range - but it really is worth considering that we will want to raise an UTG limper with more than just JJ - AA // AK. When we have weaker hands it suits us to invest less chips. And in order to win other pots when we don't have high absolute hand strength we're going to have to create a scenario where the nuts can always be in our range and our bluffs are successful and believable.

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I don't think limping is neccesarily bad. But you need to make whatever the play is (be it openlimping; raising 6x BB) much, much more than the odd time and with all sorts of hands in order to make yourself difficult to play against. I personally never openlimp anything and always make the same raise size per level for everything I'm playing - so my opponents won't be able to just put me on a big hand either; and will frequently disbelieve me when I do have it.

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Finally, and this is really important, doing anything solely to find out "where you are" is beyond bad. And, while I don't expect people who use this idea as a fundamental part of their strategy to instantly understand and accept such a statement, it is a concept that I see brought up in almost every HH thread on this forum.

- Bet to make worse hands call
- Bet to make better hands fold

Don't bet on the basis that it will illicit a reaction from your opponents which will make your future decisions easier. Why? Because your opponents will play bad and make mistakes. And they won't play perfect poker against you.

So - you might bet top pair so that you can fold or slowdown if raised or called. But if you do that you are assuming that your opponent never continues with worse. It's flawed thinking because if that was the case poker would be unbeatable. It would just come down to ran best all the time.

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For example (and this is a somewhat contrived scenario), let's say I'm playing a live game and we have been at the table an hour or so. I have heard my opponent use terminology like "needed to find out where I was" after some previous hands. So this guy is in the BB and we are playing 25 / 50 with 20k stacks. I get dealt AA when it is folded to me on the button and I make my standard raise at this level to 150. He calls in the BB.

The flop comes K95. He leads for 225. I CALL so he thinks his King is good. Then I either raise him on a non 10+ turn or bet if he checks it. He now bet calls or check / calls on the basis that I didn't raise the flop so he could be ahead a lot "and the turn changed nothing".  And I can now try to illicit value from him on the river assuming he checks it because the pot is big and while he thought he made a good play to find out where he was all he achieved was to tell me exactly where I was and confuse himself.

Or run the above scenario when I raise 89o when folded to me on the button. Now I can raise the flop and play the turn aggressively this time and fold out his top pair a lot. But he is happy with his fold because he "must be beat, right?"

His play is transparent and forces him into mistakes and allows a good opponent to manipulate him in position.

Equally though, we can't just do this all the time as if we do then other players will be able to react to our lines and understand that a call of a donk bet on the flop means we are playing towards the top of our range and are ahead; and a raise of the donk bet could mean we have air. But we will be mixing things up to deceive our opponent and make things harder for him. All while having an easy time reading his hands and figuring him out.

He continues to bet for info; change his betsizing and lines in paralell to what hands he actually holds at that time; and play utterly predictably. So who wins in the long run? And who needs the best hand less often in order to do it?
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Somebody may be able to explain why betting for information is bad better than me. Suffice to say, it is an issue that has been examined and worked out in other places a thousand times before.

Nice post, like many others in this thread.

---

I just wanted to say if you want to make a line you can do it with this:

should be quicker than all those -----

We really should get together and have children sometime.

lmao..as soon as I read`Llyods post I thought the exact same thing..be honest flush..you have 2 accounts, don't you? ;)

Only if we can name our first child Gamblor.

get a room you 2.

I can see mantisitis creeping in tho, why 500 words when 20 will suffice?

great stuff lloyd...really great posts and highly appreciated


I'm gonna have to commit this stuff to memory..


welcome back flushy

damn good thread

Good thread.

I'm afraid I have no idea how to get all of that across in 20 words. If you want though - you can edit my last post down to 20 words or less. I'll give you a prize if it makes my argument in the same detailed terms.

Lucky Lloyd is going to be alternating henceforth with Flushy in producing HOTW's for our consideration, starting Monday

Thanks in advance to him for this

I agree, this is an excellent thread.

Excellent? Nay. Superb.

Now I need to try & absorb LL's thinking. I don't get it yet, but I might. He might be wrong. He might be right. But it's a fascinating read, & this thread could end up in Best of blonde.

I disagree with much of LL's Post - but that don't make it a bad Post. Not at all.

Great stuff, keep it coming.

No-one has spotted the obvious mistake preflop.

Throw in 4 500 chips and look on in horror as the dealer announces 2000 to play. Call the floor, claim ignorance, too many sherbets the night before, blatantly meant to call and throw 4 100 chips in, adamently say you said "Call" before throwing them in, look round the table for someone to back you up, look horrified when you are told it doesnt stand. Then ship it in in a huge rage of tilt when someone repops.

www.howtostackaragace.com

(http://www.chriskalani.com/news/shooter-2007.jpg) (http://www.math10.com/geomimages/InscribedAngle.gif)

Dave you are simply a legend, i deffo need to work on my moody's.

LETS GET ON WITH THIS THREAD PLEASE.  ;slavedriver;

wow, we actually agree on something LLoyd! :)

As i said previously although i was maximising the chances that a check raise could be a bluff i was still not wild to see one. The one good thing about a check raise here is i am pretty certain it is either a stone cold bluff or a better hand than mine, rarely is it a worse 1 pair or a flush draw. As such i knew there was yet again little value in a 3 bet all in. Instead i decided i needed to do my best to sell weakness, as such i did all i could to physically look weak as well as act as if i was about to pass.

After a couple of minutes of deliberation (i had already decided to call nearly instantly) i made the call. I thought this might surprise him and thus get him to rush into an action on the river, especially when he is bluffing.

The river card came the 4h

Making the board  Ac 8h 5h 3d 4h

Adam now quickly bets 7k, this surprised me somewhat, i was expecting any bet on the end to be an all in, the 7k bet confused me somewhat, surely any oppo who calls 7k on the turn is going to call 7k on the river, especially when the draw has come in. It was about this point of the hand i wondered what would have happened if i had just bet the flop and kept this pot simple!

So the final action, what do we all do and how do we think this hand has played out. I believe the reveal usually occurs on Sunday, so until then.....

ow..have to think about this one for a while.. great choice of hand Flush

Hold on..that flop has changed!



If it was mis-read on the flop then 6h 7h..looks sweet and would explain a lot.

Call. I don't think there is any other option now. FWIW, whenever I see someone bet less than all - in on the end in a hand like this it makes it more likely that they are buffing.

And btw - I really don't care what he turns over in the end. His line and betsizing indicate that he is shit at poker.

Call the pot is far too big to pass tptk here.

OK I've thought about it for a while now and his bet is confusing..It screams "call me"...or could be a stopper bet...the size of it throws me.

The one thing I would not do is push (although that might be the right move here as he could be on a hand he lays down...arrrrrrrrrrghhh) As they say.."A worse hand will fold and a better hand will call" though that's not necesarrily true on this board.

Can I find a fold here?..I don't think so..he might have had the AK/AQ of hearts ...I dunno....in the moment ..right now I flatcall...though at the time I might be thinking fold....yeah a flat call will do for me

Great hand to choose Flush and I can't wait to hear the conclusion of this one (or thoughts behind it from you and other Laggies)

Unless he has it of course.
BTW whatever happened to short/long term results?
You're judging a bloke from one single hand? tut tut.

Scared play i think on the turn flushy, you've second guessed yourself when i think you should have stuck to your "weakness" strategy.
As said you really have to cross your fingers and call here.

Watching from the parrallel universe where I am playing the same hand I feel even better about folding to the CR on the turn.

Not sure what river you wanted when you called the CR on the turn other than the K. In fact when you did call it you must have had an idea how/what you were going to do on the river.

For me I still don't think he has a flush. Your decision now is simple..is he AK, AQ or 99?...Flippaments and call/fold accordingly but deffo no raise.


And to use my new fav expression... 'Head asplode'

Just logged on and read this hand through from start to finish...impressive stuff.

A question bugged me when reading it though...so thoughts please.



If we play the part of Villain at the table this is what we have seen....

It is fair to say that we have made certain judgements about Hero's playing style...He is aggressive...He isn't afraid to bet. He puts his chips in aggressively. He will frequently bully people off pots.

You find yourself involved in a pot with Hero and suddenly he is a different player...he is passive. Why would you think this was a good bluff opportunity? If someone can answer this for me I will have a better understanding of why checking the flop to induce a bluff is the way to play A-K here.

Why is checking the flop, smooth calling the re-raise and looking weak...

...the best way to play this hand? We are "disguising" our hand by playing out-of-character. I don't get why standing out from the crowd is a good disguise?

Checking the flop tells Villain a story that we are scared to bet the A high board? But we have already shown him lots of times that we are not a player that gets afraid like this. I don't understand why this is a convincing story to tell. Only calling Villain's turn raise really compounds this problem. We have gone from a fearless table captain to a scared calling-station? And we are calling EVEN THOUGH we are scared of the Ace. I don't like this disguise because I don't think it's a very good one.

We tend to think a lot about what our opponents hand is but what hand are WE trying to sell him? Is this how aggressive players play Queens?...looking and acting weak to entice your opponent to bet into a board you don't like.

If Villain is capable I don't see him believing Mike Caro for a second. Not enough to see it as a really good spot to bluff his chips away anyway.

A better disguise is to bet the flop out as normal...and maybe act strong for effect.

If Villain is tuned in I think Hero is always behind here and calling the river is a donation. 

Like most people here, I wouldn't pass the river as you still have a good strength hand and the pot odds are good.

It's a pretty crazy bluff if he is making one after you called on the turn, given the very small chance of it working...but not impossible.

I would expect him to table some sort of hand. He could be betting an ace for value although this would seem to be a much better hand to use as a bluff catcher, especially given the board.

He could have been semi bluffing on the turn and have made his hand and be milking it for what he thinks you'll pay.

All in all his line is very confusing, but as your hand is still somewhat disguised and is good and you are getting nice pot odds with TPTK, it's an easy call now.

well from reading the hand i carnt have him on a flush draw because of the double check he has no way of knowing your betting the turn and he isnt checking twice with a flush draw i prob put him on either a turned set or a 35/34 type of hand   but not flush draw,  you could be ahead but i wouldnt of thought so you either got unlucky on the river or the turn  or maybe he flopped a set but i dont think that either there is to much there to check twice with that hand,

just my view

Iv just read this through start to finish. I think its a car crash. And im a big Flushy fan. You dont need to think outside the box all the time, esp in this spot given your activity level.

pay him and watch in horror as he turns  Ahrt Kh then go to one of the updaters and tell them you run so bad and it neverends   AMENTS.

lol

And the result is?

??

He got banned this morning

lmao

oops sorry was out last night celebrating a friends victory in the brighton main event, have to go out now as well, will pm snoopy the reveal later this afternoon.

his 7k on the river is probably all or nothing. My main concern is that i often C/r the turn albeit almost exclusively in position with F'd's or gutshots etc.. as a semi-bluff. And bet an amount to leave some chips behind feigning weakness if i hit my semi-bluff card on the river. I Now want to sell the story that im having a stab at the pot and have a lifeline if called. so i bet a similar amount to the villian.

Villian knows you have been active, and also knows that he has been very quiet up to now and knows you must have noticed this too, therefore he may feel that you should respect his action here. However with him knowing you have been your normal active self would he risk CR a hand on the turn that he is not prepared to go with if you shove. The CR therefore imo is either all or nothing, and if u jam the turn you will know in 3 seconds if you have the pot or are leaving the table quickly.

i reckon its about 50/50 on the riv whether he has a hand which beats you, or a total bluff with JK QK JTs etc.... i call.

i think you can only call on the turn if you are prepared to call on the river therefore maximising your equity if he is on a bluff. I cant see a way you can pass on this turn. I think you planned to call the river when you called his turn. The pot is big now and after your dwell on the turn surely any player with nothing here given the size of the pot and his stack and your seeming reluctance to call the turn bets the river.

Don't hide it, you were celebrating your return to blonde weren't you?

Left myself no time to do it before heading to the GPT party, i will get it done tomorrow, sorry all!

Ban him, now... inconsiderate ****!

I have sent it to snoops, although 2 days late. So it should be up soon.


My excuse, i went to dusk till dawn on Saturday to play the £500, meanwhile i had put a couple of players into the Brighton main event. One of them had made it to the Brighton final on Sunday so i got up in the morning and drove down to Brighton so i could give her some advice and support throughout the final she ended up winning the event and given it was by far her biggest result we may have had a group celebration that night that left me in no fit state to write a reveal, of course by the time i got up i had to do a couple of things then head for the GPT party in London last night.

So apologies for the late arrival of this reveal.....


P.S. Worst dressed.....no justice.

It's on its way, one sec. This is all very exciting. It's like dipping into the mind of a genius.

FYP

(It's official too)

FU

INSTABAN!

 :kiss:

Here you go:

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/14106 (http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/14106)

Good post and interesting self analysis here Flush..atleast it's not a "look at me I played great!" post.

I thought about this last week, it was hardly ever going to be a welcome back to blonde, so ill make a tit out of myself overplaying a hand in a big comp HA. Nice post though flushy and nice of you to take us to a gay bar on Monday.