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Poker Forums => The Rail => Topic started by: Flea on December 16, 2007, 01:07:02 AM



Title: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Flea on December 16, 2007, 01:07:02 AM
Hi,

Recently I've been going through a really bad run, I'm still enjoying it but it has started to get me down slightly with my lack of form. I prefer playing mtt's online (only because I can very rarely get to live games) and have a reasonably good cashing rate. I know I don't win many but I used to cash on a regular basis and was happy with that, just recently I barely seem to cash at all - Once in the last 3 months in bigger MTT's and maybe 3 times in smaller ones (by small I mean less than 100 players).

The thing is I've tried not to let it affect my game for instance tonight I've played 5 MTT's and started reasonably well in all 5 but managed to go out within reach of the money in all of them (including bubbling twice), given this run should I just try to limp into the money to boost the confidence a bit? or am I right to keep playing to try to win (or at least go as deep as possible).

For instance the last MTT I've just gone out of (81st when paying down to 80th) I had just under 9 times the BB and was in the SB with A7, it folded round to me and I figured any raise worth making would pretty much pot-commit me so went all-in and got called by AJ which held up - I have no bones about the hand at all I'm just concerned that maybe I should adjust my play when close to the money (at least until I've regained some confidence).

Someone typed into the chat box "why??" which made me think but the answer is I wasn't playing to just limp into the prizes.

What do others think/suggest??

Any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers
Andy


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: M3boy on December 16, 2007, 02:17:57 AM
I would suggest your Game needs improving in the middle of the tourney - you seem to get to the bubble stage with not many chips.

You need to accumulate chips along the way as well as survive.

I think it is VERY easy to slip towards "survive" and not "accumulate" when you have not cashed for a while but this is a slippery slope to becoming a loosing player imo


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Claw75 on December 16, 2007, 02:22:02 AM

Someone typed into the chat box "why??" which made me think but the answer is I wasn't playing to just limp into the prizes.


I know what you mean, and I've been guilty of similar plays in the past too.  No, you're not playing to limp into the prizes, but you're definitely not playing to bubble either.  Pass here and you've still got 8.5 bbs.  Wait for the bubble to burst, then try to double up would be my advice.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Tractor on December 16, 2007, 09:25:43 AM
I would echo M3s advice here, it seems from what you said you are trying to Cash, i would forget cashing and try to get your first win.
This way you can forget the bubble, get your foot on the peddle earlier, get a big stack if you can and go to war.
You might find your busting out a lot earlier in most of the comps but if your playing 5 mtts a night it wont be long before you will be going deep in one.

GL



Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Longy on December 16, 2007, 10:31:51 AM
Im no Mtt specialist and there is reason for that as I am not a fan of varience. Mtt's have massive varience due to the field sizes and the payout structure being top heavy, so even the good players tend to go through very long dry spells but make all of it back with a couple of big cashes when they run deep.Im sure flushy posted on here over a year ago about a downswing he was going through and it was quite sick and he is big winner in Mtt's online.

Being a winning player in Mtt's is about finishing in the top few spots, so getting hold of a stack and wielding to useful affect in the right spots, the bubble and the tight players for example seems to be the way to go.Also play position, I can emphasise this enough in no limit, position is king.

The shove on the bubble is probably quite marginal, I would fold here only because its the bubble and the mathematics mean it is probably more +ev to hang on. I shove this hand all day if it is not the bubble.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: kinboshi on December 16, 2007, 10:49:01 AM
Im no Mtt specialist and there is reason for that as I am not a fan of varience. Mtt's have massive varience due to the field sizes and the payout structure being top heavy, so even the good players tend to go through very long dry spells but make all of it back with a couple of big cashes when they run deep.Im sure flushy posted on here over a year ago about a downswing he was going through and it was quite sick and he is big winner in Mtt's online.

Being a winning player in Mtt's is about finishing in the top few spots, so getting hold of a stack and wielding to useful affect in the right spots, the bubble and the tight players for example seems to be the way to go.Also play position, I can emphasise this enough in no limit, position is king.

The shove on the bubble is probably quite marginal, I would fold here only because its the bubble and the mathematics mean it is probably more +ev to hang on. I shove this hand all day if it is not the bubble.

Agree with all of that.

I bubbled in an MTT yesterday.  was going along swimmingly, in the top ten.  Then in the space of 3 hands, I was gone.  Each time putting my money in ahead, and being outdrawn - the final time when I'd become fairly short and was in need of a double up.  Maybe shoving against the big stack at the table who could afford to call and lose was a bad idea - but i wanted the double up (rather than just his BB), and 7 times out of 10, that's exactly what would have happened.  In a cash game it's reload and soldier on.  In a tourney it's game over.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Grier78 on December 16, 2007, 05:12:58 PM
My advice would be to keep an eye on the size of the average stack and don't let yourself fall too behind it, sit reasonably tight before the antes kick in but after that steal, steal, steal.

If you take a large number of small risks in the midgame then will usually avoid the need to take any big risks until the final table bubble.

Avoid ever having to stick your whole stack in if possible, don't re raise anyone if it is going to get you pot committed.

Obviously this all assumes that you have an edge over the other players which you probably will have if you are playing in $25 tourney's or less. If not drop down a couple of levels and crush the games till you get your confidence back.

Good luck.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Royal Flush on December 16, 2007, 06:35:21 PM
I don't mean to be funny but reading your PHA posts i can't see how its possible that given your current playing style you will ever be a long term MTT winner.

I suggest a change of game or a major overhaul of your playing style.

P.S. Shoving A7 there is so massively correct. Having 9BB at that stage of a tournament is the problem.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: doubleup on December 16, 2007, 07:56:47 PM

P.S. Shoving A7 there is so massively correct.

You might well be right, but as you don't know the payout structure, average chips etc, you are guessing.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Royal Flush on December 16, 2007, 08:01:10 PM

P.S. Shoving A7 there is so massively correct.

You might well be right, but as you don't know the payout structure, average chips etc, you are guessing.

I have yet to see a large field tournament where pushing 9BB from SB to BB on the bubble with a good hand is not correct, so unless its a truly bizarre comp the other details are not needed.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: hugob055 on December 16, 2007, 09:08:47 PM

P.S. Shoving A7 there is so massively correct.

You might well be right, but as you don't know the payout structure, average chips etc, you are guessing.

does it matter what the average stack is or the payout with 9bb in that position your pushing with a huge range


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Graham C on December 16, 2007, 09:15:35 PM
You have a similar problem to me.  I'm ok in the early stages of tourneys, I'm not to bad in the late stages of tourneys, but I'm really struggling at the moment during the middle stages if I have a healthy stack going into the middle stage for some reason.  If I take the approach to call to see a lot of flops with ok hands, I end up just getting low stacked, then have to push in desperation and if I play more conserveratively and wait for decent hands then raise, I seem to end up short stacked or blind out.

I need to sort my game out too, not quite sure what to do yet, will have to read through some books I have I think.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: GlasgowBandit on December 16, 2007, 09:37:35 PM
I am going to stick my tuppence worth in here for what its worth.

I have the opposite problem, my issues are at the beginning/early parts of tournament I find it hard to accumulate chips.  Doesnt seem to matter if its a rebuy or freezeout.  In the last couple of nights I have been tuning into some tourneys and looking for players who seem to do quite well and I am looking at what they are doing to see how they accumulate early and I don't see that they are doing anything differently from me, but they seem to be getting a little bit of luck when it matters. 

However at the business end I seem fairly comfortable and when I have managed to get a stack I am going fairly deep. 

In regards to this specific hand on this thread I am not sure that I want to be shoving with A 7, simply because I know I am probably one being called by a bigger A or a PP, I'd much rather get my stack in with 67s, when i find myself as a short stack.

A mate of mine though seems to be totally different, he seems to easily accumulate chips early but once the bubble bursts seems to become super tight and passive and I think this seems to stop him making bigger cashes than what he does, we have toyed with the idea of splitting the buy in for a few online tourneys and him playing the early stages upto the 2nd break when he has ammassed a stack with me taking over when its time to go after the money, not sure what purpose this serves other than us accumulating some money.  I would hope that I would be able to pick up some ideas from him on how he accumulates his chips and i would hope from his perspective he'd be able to how I consolidate and gather chips and attack weak players and put pressure on them when the prizes are given out.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: KarmaDope on December 16, 2007, 09:44:19 PM
A mate of mine though seems to be totally different, he seems to easily accumulate chips early but once the bubble bursts seems to become super tight and passive and I think this seems to stop him making bigger cashes than what he does, we have toyed with the idea of splitting the buy in for a few online tourneys and him playing the early stages upto the 2nd break when he has ammassed a stack with me taking over when its time to go after the money, not sure what purpose this serves other than us accumulating some money.

I would be very careful, a lot of sites have banned this.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Indestructable on December 16, 2007, 09:47:37 PM
Flea,
You just had a mention on Sky, doesn't sound like tonight is any better.  :(


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: GlasgowBandit on December 16, 2007, 09:54:43 PM
A mate of mine though seems to be totally different, he seems to easily accumulate chips early but once the bubble bursts seems to become super tight and passive and I think this seems to stop him making bigger cashes than what he does, we have toyed with the idea of splitting the buy in for a few online tourneys and him playing the early stages upto the 2nd break when he has ammassed a stack with me taking over when its time to go after the money, not sure what purpose this serves other than us accumulating some money.

I would be very careful, a lot of sites have banned this.

We'd play from the same location mate ;)  Thought about the prospect of playing from our own houses but would just be our luck that if we took down a decent prize we'd be turned over.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: doubleup on December 16, 2007, 10:09:47 PM

P.S. Shoving A7 there is so massively correct.

You might well be right, but as you don't know the payout structure, average chips etc, you are guessing.

I have yet to see a large field tournament where pushing 9BB from SB to BB on the bubble with a good hand is not correct, so unless its a truly bizarre comp the other details are not needed.

I was more thinking about where you could be virtually certain to make the money.  Lets say your tournament equity is $50.  Making this push increases it to $57 lets say.  Not making it guarantees $25 plus say $40 in equity from the remaining prize fund.  Is this flawed logic?

 


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Jon MW on December 17, 2007, 10:54:37 AM

P.S. Shoving A7 there is so massively correct.

You might well be right, but as you don't know the payout structure, average chips etc, you are guessing.

I have yet to see a large field tournament where pushing 9BB from SB to BB on the bubble with a good hand is not correct, so unless its a truly bizarre comp the other details are not needed.

Funnily enough, my first thought was that the shove was obviously correct, but when others started voicing the opposing opinion I lacked the courage of my conviction to state it.

It's true that this has meant that there have been a number of tournaments where I have ended up bubbling when I could have limped into the money, but there have also been tournaments where I've doubled up and achieved a high finish with the extra chips available to me. In a single tournament it might make you worse off, but over the long term it has to be more profitable.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Jon MW on December 17, 2007, 10:57:59 AM

P.S. Shoving A7 there is so massively correct.

You might well be right, but as you don't know the payout structure, average chips etc, you are guessing.

I have yet to see a large field tournament where pushing 9BB from SB to BB on the bubble with a good hand is not correct, so unless its a truly bizarre comp the other details are not needed.

I was more thinking about where you could be virtually certain to make the money.  ...

 

I don't think that you could ever be virtually certain to make the money - a couple of short stacks doubling up whilst you've been blinding away your stack, and suddenly you're the short stack.

If you had a large enough stack that this wouldn't make you the short stack then you should be attacking to pick up extra chips on the bubble.

I don't see any combination of events where blinding away, hoping to limp into the money is the right option (in a standard freezeout, in exceptional circumstances, maybe).


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Longy on December 17, 2007, 11:44:40 AM
Regarding the a7 push, it really is payout structure dependent and on review im starting to think its probably a marginally +ev push but really does depend on ranges/payout structures.

Fwiw its a marginal push on a sng bubble 9bb's deep from the sb.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: MKKfish on December 17, 2007, 11:46:49 AM
hmmmmm...well back in the day Flushy I carried your ass on the 70/30 we used to have so gonna stick my fourpenneth worth in here..

This is not a simple "I'm in it to win it not just scrape thru to the money" scenario.

Firstly if the BB is chipped up I pass..Secondly if the BB is short stacked...I er...pass, (he's not really a dog with any two cards). We are in exactly the optimum position to make the pass in fact - it's the bubble and the blinds have just passed us so we now have a complete round to (a) let someone else bubble and/or (b) wake up with a hand we really want to be all-in here.

What do you want with your shove...a call or a fold?.. A call...well you aint all that so I guess not...A fold...hmmm what have you achieved...

The short stack any Ax shove undoes more MTT players than you can poke a stick at.






Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: brummieboy on December 17, 2007, 12:03:46 PM
Flea, as you did quite well at the Cardiff Blonde bash I think you should go back to the pre tournament tactics you used there of getting severely p1ssed and falling over in the street.

I'm sure it will help your game.

No need to thank me.




Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: kinboshi on December 17, 2007, 02:32:38 PM
Flea, as you did quite well at the Cardiff Blonde bash I think you should go back to the pre tournament tactics you used there of getting severely p1ssed and falling over in the street.

I'm sure it will help your game.

No need to thank me.


:goodpost: ;iagree;


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: TheChipPrince on December 17, 2007, 03:09:26 PM
What do you want with your shove...a call or a fold?.. A call...well you aint all that so I guess not...A fold...hmmm what have you achieved...


Added 20% to your stack, but other than that some good points...


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: doubleup on December 17, 2007, 05:03:07 PM

P.S. Shoving A7 there is so massively correct.

You might well be right, but as you don't know the payout structure, average chips etc, you are guessing.

I have yet to see a large field tournament where pushing 9BB from SB to BB on the bubble with a good hand is not correct, so unless its a truly bizarre comp the other details are not needed.

I was more thinking about where you could be virtually certain to make the money.  ...

 

I don't think that you could ever be virtually certain to make the money - a couple of short stacks doubling up whilst you've been blinding away your stack, and suddenly you're the short stack.


hmmm there are 9 or 10 tables on the go - unless this is a very well structured tournament it's likely that several stacks are past life support and there is a good chance of a big hand vs big hand clash from larger stacks.  What about the same situation in the Sunday Million bubble - would you agree that you were virtually guaranteed to be itm there?  Anyway my question was about the maths of calculating equity around the bubble i.e. is it right to compare the equity in the way I suggested.


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Flea on December 17, 2007, 08:00:29 PM
Flea, as you did quite well at the Cardiff Blonde bash I think you should go back to the pre tournament tactics you used there of getting severely p1ssed and falling over in the street.

I'm sure it will help your game.

No need to thank me.




hmm I bubbled there aswell.

I'm quite good at bubbling   ;reallyamsorry;


Title: Re: Am I doing something wrong?
Post by: Flea on December 17, 2007, 08:10:35 PM
Thanks for all the advice though - much appreciated.

Like I said it wasn't particularly this hand I was worried about more the style to adopt when near the bubble and attitude to take - especially when going through a bad run.

I know I'm not a very good player but I would like to improve my game and in particular reading of other players and/or situations (which is undoubtedly my greatest failing).