blonde poker forum

No reads this is the 7th hand of a donkament, allbeit at a higher buy-in than you usually play. You've so far played one hand raising A-K utg, getting 3 callers and then c-betting a king high board to win the pot without showdown.

What line do you like pre-flop, bump it up to thin the field (if so how much?) or flat call and play for set value/pot control OOP?
Will post the next part after some responses

PokerStars Game #14558645545: Tournament #73676452, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/01/14 - 17:06:06 (ET)
Table '73676452 84' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Toppform (4210 in chips)
Seat 2: Boderino (2930 in chips)
Seat 3: MORIÑA (2970 in chips)
Seat 4: WGC1234 (2850 in chips)
Seat 5: mr_euro (2380 in chips)
Seat 6: micke_jons (2410 in chips)
Seat 7: osprey1171 (2930 in chips)
Seat 8: dino1980 (3230 in chips)
Seat 9: ibo_88 (3090 in chips)
dino1980: posts small blind 10
ibo_88: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dino1980 [Qc Qs]
Toppform: folds
Boderino: folds
MORIÑA: raises 60 to 80
WGC1234: folds
mr_euro: calls 80
micke_jons: calls 80
osprey1171: folds
dino1980: ??

350 to go.

I agree with jezza, you need to bump it to get heads up if you can. Being first to act isn't great but a big re-raise is needed here, maybe even a tad more than 350.

400 to go..either way you have to raise me thinks.

that gives original raiser odds to call with a wide range (350/270+350 to call),and then you are likely playing QQ OOP Multi way

600 to play here

if he shoves its player dependent. fold if no reads

if its called then lead post flop on any non Ace flop and re-assess/pot control if you see action

pot it. 420 to go

Right then everyone in favour of a raise and we need to raise to at least 400+ here to thin field.

However, I flatted for a number of reasons not all rational! Didn't want to play a huge pot OOP with queens and it's my experience that a raise to 450+ here would get minimum 1 call maybe even 2 or more if the original raiser flatted and started a domino effect leaving us to play a pot of 1000-1500 OOP.
Also I recently become obsessed with pot control especially OOP which I think factored into my decision and is actually effecting me right now, call it a form of passive tilt if you like. A few months ago I took the concept of not betting when you're only going to called by a better hand, too far and would, far too often, check behind on the river with a hand where I should've bet for value - Tighty probably witnessed this in Waterford.

Anyway I flatted, big blind flatted and we saw a flop 5 way, pot =540

dino1980: calls 70
ibo_88: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [Qh 9h 2h]
dino1980: ??

Bet for information not value!!


seriously though, now you have to make a pot sized bet to make it tough for heart draws

if someone has the flopped flush, tough..serves you right for not raising  ;)

You have a very big hand and worry about pot control?...yuck..that's all i say about that.

Now lead out on the flop and I hope you get done by 56 suited ;)

At level one in the comp, rightly or wrongly, I'd have done the same as you preflop.   If we're raising to 400-600 preflop this early, I'm not sure I'm capable of letting go of the hand to an over the top raise/all in.  I'd be hoping for an over pair to the board on the flop, or trips with the view of either picking up a much larger pot later in the hand or letting go of an easily beaten hand for a cheap amount.

On the flop, I'd definitely raise here, looking to make around the pot.   If there's an all in now, I'm probably calling whilst keeping an eye on the next tournament to start up!

Pot.

lets stop playing scared and get some chips in the middle

Wait..so you have a problem sticking all your chips in on the flop when you have a third best hand..and then when you don't even hold the 5th nuts you are willing to stick your chips in when someone re-raises you all-in? I just don't get this...I really don't.

Not really,   There's been a raise already, someone obv thinks they have something worth of raising - he isn't in great position so I'm guessing something niceish here.   There's been callers too.  If you raise big preflop, at least one of them is calling or coming over the top here. 

It's still really early on in the tournament, I don't see the point in raising big this early on to pick up a few hundred chips but risk losing a third of the stack.  I'd be thinking that I'd rather have a massive pot that I can scoop if I hit the flop hard.

The flops not great, but you still have a really good hand here.  Perhaps it's not ahead, but I'm expecting AA, KK or Ah x to be making a move here, especially if you check the flop. 

Can we stop playing wussie poker please. You have QQ and should be willing to bet the hand well preflop. Opponents calling with inferior hands are making a mistake and this is where profit comes from , flatting gives them no opportunity to make an error.

Top set I am firing the full pot.

out of position i'd rereaise every time preflop here, otherwise you find yourself out of position in a multi way pot with hardly a clue where you stand.

Now that you find yourself in this position i would bet 400 and be hoping the turn to pair the board

By not raising preflop with a premium hand you have allowed the suited connector brigade see a flop very cheaply and with 5 in  to see the flop theres a fair chance of at least 1 player sitting with suited connectors. All is not bad though since its still only a 1 in 4 chance that his suited connectors are matching the hearts on board. The other hands that could be out here are A rag suited KJ suited etc. to see a cheap flop early doors in a donkament. Having seen the queen on the flop to seeing a flushing board my mood has changed from delighted to horrified of what Ive got myself into by flat calling preflop. Still all is not lost we might wind up allin and start shouting at the screen "PAIR THE F***ING BOARD" and like Silo said I'd probably decide its time to check the lobby for the next tourny starting time.

5 players with a 1 in 4 chance - dont like those odds personally :D

So I butchered this hand pretty bad no?

*** FLOP *** [Qh 9h 2h]
dino1980: bets 180
I weak lead so that I can a) dump to really heavy action behind e.g re-raise and re-re-raise and b) if anyone does come over the top I can re-shove all-in whilst keeping one eye on the lobby. If I get flatted and then a 4th heart arrives then I throw up and check fold.
ibo_88: folds
MORIÑA: folds
mr_euro: folds
micke_jons: raises 320 to 500
dino1980: ??

Can we flat though? Or do we need to pump it or dump it?

What would you be looking to do if a blank comes on the turn, presumably check, and then what if opponent goes allin?
Surely your decision on flop reraise bet of 320 is dependent on your answer to above question. The alternative thinking is to push to possibly take the pot down there and then or alternatively to give you no decisions on the turn if the board blanks.

I really don't like that mentality in your first two lines here...you're asking to play a multi-way pot OOP and are only playing your Queens trying to hit a set. Any board is likely to kill you multiway if you don't hit a set. Most flops that you do feel comfortable with in a multi-way pot mean that you won't get paid off.
I am fine with getting one caller...or even someone moving all in preflop..this "he is moving all in pre-flop in an early level so must have kings or Aces" train of thought is starting to do my head in.

and then to check the flop when there are three hearts on board.. and only 400 in the pot. Any more Ah is going to make is a potsized bet (max)..he might come over the top if you fire in a bet first..there is no chance in hell he'll move all in on the flop unless you lead out and if he does only bet 350-400 he could very easily fold if you check -raise him...but if there are more callers IF he indeed bets the flop you will indeed be getting callers when you move all-in..and odds are that one of them will be the guy holding suited connectors whom you should have bet out of the pot pre-flop.

Check-calling  gives out free cards to anyone in the pot. and now you've gone from set mining with your queens to wanting a full house with your queens. You have to lead out here...and you really should raise pre-flop in a multiway pot when you are OOP holding queens.

Going back to the original post and rereading the hand etc. my assumption is that the minimum holding for micke_jons here judged by the action is  Ahrt x. I'm not too sure if I want any further part in this hand and might be prepared to wipe my mouth goodbye to the 260 chips I've put into this pot and wait for another opportunity to donk off my chips.

the 180 bet is bad...really, bet something decent. What are you trying to do with that bet? that 180 allows everybody with a decent heart in.

You are playing this hand very passively and are almost making a case for folding QQ pre-flop OOP in a multi-way pot. I think the key to this hand is what you said first "Higher level buy-in than you usually play"..you are playing this hand like scared money.

You say you want to control the pot preflop by not raising. So why bet 180 now? it it a bet begging to be raised, surley a check call gives you pot control and may give you a cheap enough turn. If you do want to bet here then bet a decent amount and it may buy you a free river. The 180 makea no sense to me at all what are you hoping to achieve with it?

Wow Nick, what a butchering!!!

All in or fold now

All in for me, and pray for the house

My mentality isn't that I'm assuming aces or kings, my mentality is that I'd like a nice pot.

Say we raise to 400, everyone folds, we get an extra 240 chips.  240 chips isn't going to make that much difference to my stack at the moment.  That's not to say I'm not happy picking up the odd pot here and there, but with a lot of interest, I'd like to get a lot more chips.

If we raise to 400 and all but one fold, the flop comes like it does, it's still risky, but ok you've narrowed down the chance of 5h 6h calling here. 

If we raise to 400 and someone pushes, you're left with a tough decision to make which will more than likely result in a fold and now you've lost a third of your stack.

All I'm saying is that in the very early stages, and only in the very early stages, I'd happy to call and hit a set here.  If it goes mental on the flop and I haven't hit a set, I can easily let go and it's not cost me much. 

Also, I do lead out on the flop, I never said I don't (I hope anyway!)

If you raise to 400 you want 56h to call......

this is why I thought you advocated a check on the flop.

In a 50$ tourney if I raise to 400 pre-flop to narrow the field and someone pushes I ussually call..and find they don't have aces or kings.

And if they have we've still got 2 outs and an eye on the lobby for the next donkament to start lol

Raise preflop to 400-500 for value and i probably do stack off especially if its not the original raisor who sets me in.

On the flop I lead for around the pot in a multiway monotone flop this is again for value and I definitley stack off here.

As for this talk of pot control, I think this concept is being massively misunderstood. Pot control is firstly mainly used in position as you can control the pot from here. If you oop to 5 players are we using some kind of Paul McKenna techinique to stop the other 4 betting and raising, it is very difficult to control from the sb here, nearly impossible I would say. Secondly pot control is used in a situation where getting raised is a bad thing and you have real trouble calling as your hand is marginal. I don't think this hand is marginal, some may disagree.

Please don't use pot control as an excuse for passive poker, passive poker is a long term way not to maximise the money you can make in poker.

playing QQ for set value seems like its taking the concept of "hoping to win a big pot" much too far...you can still win a big pot if you raise, people tend to play bad in small tournaments, so raise it up preflop and give them a chance to lose more chips!


as for the flop, get it in and watch 10/J with the 10h scoop the pot

The reason I wanted pot control pre-flop was because we are playing over 100bbs deep and I didn't want to play a massive pot OOP with queens at this stage. Now that I've flopped my set even though it's an all heart board I'm 80% sure I'm willing to go broke here.

My 180 bet is all to do with the stack sizes behind me. If I bet out for 400ish then it gives any of the other stacks licence to shove me. But by betting 180 it gives me the chance to shove them and give them the harder decision.

The 180 also IMO gives me a chance to get away from it cheaper if there's really heavy action behind me. I can fold having lost 260 chips and still have c.3000chips at 10/20.

I'm not saying that any of what i've written above is 'correct' just saying my thought process on the hand as it happened.

my line is raise heavy pre flop, 600ish, raise more to negate positional disadvantage.

once that flop hits i'm getting it in if possible and holding onto my chair, no 2 ways about it for me.

You're 100 BB's deep for the next 10 minutes or so in a tourney full of poor players who will call with poor hands in the first few levels. This is great..so make them pay.

The 180 bet is worse than the limp pre-flop..you're asking for trouble. I might sound quite harsh sometimes (and I apologise if I sound like a smart arse know it all here) but it's a problem and thought process you simply have to change. To think "I'll buy the pot cheap or fold to any real action" when you are out of position in a multi-player pot is what weak and poor players do when they hold a real hand.

Now there's a phrase i never thought i'd ever read on blonde..........  ;whistle;

I apologise on a daily bases (admittedly mainly to MrsBoldie and mainly in bed but still) :)

maybe - but £10 says its not for sounding like a smart arse know it all!! :D

(and we will ask MrsBoldie at the next BB ;))

ohno!

Longy said this best but I might as well reiterate it seeing as some of the posts here are so weak tight.
You can't do pot control oop. Pot control only really works in position and the reason is you have final say on how big pot is, oop you don't.

You have third best hand, you want to raise it and in general be happy to get it all in. The fact it's 7th hand in turnament is utterly irrelevant. Would you rather wait until it's crapshoot and you push with some crap on the button before going all in?

On the flop same thing, bet out and do whatever you have to do to get it in. Even if someone has flush then your 2-1 anyway. Stop looking for reasons to fold and not put your chips in, everything about the play of this hand and thinking behind it is weak and resulting in bad play imo.

I would fold pre-flop, the chances of suck out are too big IMO;)

Wow Tantrum..long time no see.

hi, i am alive and well. had broadband issues for a while... and loads of work, I am back, playing again which is  great...

Welcome back :)

thank you:)

OK just seen this post and thought I'd try and offer some insight on what I would typically do in this spot. Bare with my long winded reply  as its 9am and I haven't slept yet.

OK this is a $50 freezeout and a lot of the players are really bad in the early stages so you want to try and accumulate as many chips as possible. I would re raise to like 420-450 here Pre flop and likely get 1 or possibly 2 callers. If the original raiser pushed I would probably look him up on OPR and if he is anywhere close to break even/a losing player I will call.... obviously we are calling anyone else's shove.

In mtt's you haven't really got enough time to go around nut pedaling so once you see this flop after the way that you played the hand pre flop you still are looking to get it all in. Think of the hands that are willing to get it all in here..... 2 lower sets aren't folding and you are over 95% favourite versus these hands. Aq with ace of hearts (unlikely holding because case queen) isn't folding and just loads of random rubbish that you see in a $50 freezeout is getting it in..... some of it you wouldn't even ever think of; sometimes you are going to be crushed by a 67h type of hand that you have let in for cheap but hey you still have about 33%equity in the hand and this is the WORST case scenario.... I can assure you that in a $50 mtt if you get it all in here you will have far greater than 50% equity in the long run... but please squeeze this pre flop as its just going to be 2 hard to maximize value with your hand with this many people in the pot. You have the 3rd best hand in the game but it doesn't matter if your going to be playing this 5/6 way... suited connectors were made for multiway pots big pairs were not!

p.s I would probably flat call pocket jacks in this spot pre flop but I guess I'm just a nit

Good Luck at the tables.... hope this was some help Chris