blonde poker forum

Playing in the $50k $100 rebuy tonight, down to about 70 players, blinds at 300/600.  Would someone please explain to me why this person made this call.

In early position i am dealt  Td Tc.  I go all in for 5.5k.  Guy in mid position with about 18k calls, still with 2 players behind him with 20k plus chips who could come over the top.

His hand  Kh Qs.  Needless to say the  Kc came on the river.

But why did he call here - for nearly 1/3 of his stack, still with players to act behind him who could come over the top, and what could he possibly expect to be beating....... he is just hoping to get lucky.

Please also tell me that i am right in thinking that this was a terrible call by him - otherwise i will need to look at my own game very closely!

Not the worst I've seen

you push your 9x bb in, he's not thinking you've got a monster you want action with is he?

at worst he probably thinks he's a 40-60% shot with a 13k stack if he loses and presumably the two blinds need something big to re-raise and protect you.

yeah i agree with rich, make it 1800 - 2400 he probably doesnt call. The all in shove makes the hand transparent and he probably sees kq as good as AK and racing. Having said that i see your point, it's not a call i make but this is ipoker i presume and have seen a lot worse.

I think if he calls you for 5500 he definately calls for 1800 just a little bit quicker. Not a fan of the call btw.
Was he French?

having said all that i made a similar call against alex martin last who showed with a pair when i had aq as i felt i was racing, but fro me aq is diff to kq. contradiction? who knows.

but does he call the push on the flop with k high?

Doubt it , but you said if he makes it 1800 - 2400 he probably doesnt call. I disagree I still think he calls, but in making it 1800 would have allowed him to win the pot postflop by moving in with his remainding chips I agree.
I fold KQ for 5500 btw
 

Wasnt really looking for analysis of my bet, i was aware that i could have raised to 1800-2400, but decided to make the all in move at this particular time.

Just find it hard to fathom how someone is willing to put in that many chips in that position.

By the way he probably would have made the call after the flop as there were 3 spades on the board and he had the queen.

in that case matt, then in answer to your question. Bad call imo. not surprised tho.

really? Not trying to be disrespectful but its not even on the radar of odd calls that one experiences in my opinion


p.s I am a nit, I pass KQ there

i agree that there are many worse calls - but i was thinking more along the lines of the fact that it was a $100 rebuy, for me that is a big tournament, maybe not so much for him.  If it was a $5 then i could understand it a lot more.

impossible to say

if its out of your bankroll then you could be at an inherent disadvantage..

Tis a crap call. But thats why I love tournaments. They are full of awful players.

that always seem to get lucky with bad calls sigh

coz its ipoker.

The call is a pretty bad one but meh i will see worse.

As for the shove it is totally standard and easily the best play imo.

This is 2nd time this arguement has come up tonight, your hand is not transparant at all. I would shove all the following hands here ak,aq,aj,a10,qq-55 and given table dynamics possibly even wider and sometimes with aa and kk on complete donk tables, or table where making a small raise would look suspicious to the rest of the table.

Also what the hell do we do to (a) A complete nit shoves on us and we have a 1/3 to 1/2 our stack in there.
                                          (b) We get 1/2 caller and the flop come with 1 or 2 overcards.

These situations are alot worse than making our hand alledgely transparent. Just balance your range if you are worried about being readable and this involves shoving aa and kk here quite abit.

Not out of my bankroll, but at the top end.
I suppose a double up would have put me in a good position, but that doesnt help much when he hits!

Errrrmmm These 2 scenarios are completely different.
1,Open Shoving 9 BB in a mid stage part of the tourny when you are low.,

 2,  The  AgentChip AK shove thread which is obv post you are refering to is a totally different case ,

 Thought that the differences were pretty obvious to see
How can you compare them.?????

 Also who said his hand looks transparent????


Im not going to hijack thread with this one srry.

Matt50 is too short to try and get  fancy with 10's and theres nothing wrong with the shove here
( Which is the way I would have played it FWIW)
 

Incase you missunderstood me Longy I think the  shove was the CORRECT play and the KQ is a BAD call. 
Id actually commented that he was most likely going to get a call by Mr KQ what ever he did IMO

If every tournament player played perfectly how would you ever win? Looking for a reason why people make bad calls is a bit of a fruitless exercise really.....they just do. This is something to be happy and excited about.

Celtic says in his post on this thread that the hand is "transparent" which is exactly the same arguement that was put forward in the other thread that our hand is obviously ak by shoving.

Though situationally different the arguement is the same that we are effectively turning our hand over to the rest of the table, so our opponent "knows" he is racing.

I as you do think the situations are different but the same arguement has been used for both to making a smaller bet/raise instead of shoving.

On Monday i got called for 16BB by KQ with 2 tables left of the 150fo on Full Tilt, pretty shocking call.

Also on Monday i got called for 1300 chips on 15-30 of the iPoker $500fo by AT.

Without these calls i would have to get a job.

Oh my bad I thought u meant me lol
In this instance with the size of my stack 5500 compared to the blinds any move I make Im committing myself with the hand.
Happy to  pick up blinds and increase stack by 20% or preferably  double up to get back in the game. Thats why Id would take the shove option because your to short to mess around with 10s

i saw 5th in chips raise utg get re raised by CL, call the re raise, then check/call his chips all in by the turn with bottom pair/no draw holding 45os.

this was in the 150k gtd on mansion on sunday with 14 players left, truly stunned was i.

unemployablement

jeesus I knew you said that you were running bad but......- lucky that these players helped you out at the brink.

Obv i lose them, only $10k down this month so far, feels like a massive result, lol

Terrible call IMO. You could easily have AK/AQ here but he obviously thought he was racing. I could maybe understand it a little if he was BB and it had folded round but in his situation it's a fold everytime for me.

in the BB i snap call here

With kq?

yep, everytime.

against an m of 4/5 (and assuming a competent player) KQ plays well against his shove range, with the money already in i probably need about 45% equity and think i'm probably getting somewhere around 50%.

i snap pass

I think your overestimating peoples shoving ranges utg. Only the real icm/ harrington players are going to be shoving wide enough for this to be a flip. Even then its quite close.

why?

its a horrible call for 1/3 of your chips.

passing when you are behind is good poker?

not always, but in the situation i think it is.

SWEET!

 rotflmfao

i'm right i think, in the long run the call is a winning play with KQ.

it's a $100 re buy so i am assuming a decent level of player who will shove the correct range most of the time.

 ;flushy;

What are you expecting them to shove from early position on a 10 / 9 handed table then?

i have to admit here that i hadn't read the UTG part, was in my head as a cut off shove for some reason, UTG shove very marginal call, cut off shove = snap call for me.

I ask you again, what ranges are you expecting unknown players in a $100 rebuy tournament to shove? You can answer:

- UTG 10 handed
- CO 10 handed

Thanks.

a competent harrington player from the cut off, 22+ 78s+ A8os + A2s +  97s+  109os+ K7s+ Q9s+

From UTG i'd tighten it to 66+ 10Js+ A10os+ A8s+ j9s+ QJos+ K10s+

He has 5,500 with blinds at 300-600. Surely this range, including J9s+  and any two paints by the looks of it etc at a full table is far too wide?

thats what he should be shoving

so you have my ranges, whats your opinion?

also, what range would you lot call with?

what a pointless excercise.

whole thing was pointless, wish i'd never posted, only tighty and longy weighed in with anything slightly constructive, all the pros/experts had absolutely fuck all of merit to say.

LOL

Calling off a 1/3rd of my stack from an UTG shove with KQ o/s with 2 players still to act isnt a good move imo. What happens if one of the others now shoves behind? Do I fold? Thats why I think its a bad call.

Or have we now changed this discussion into a call from the BB with KQo/s? Im confused.

yes, i totally hijacked the thread, apologies op.

Lol such is PHA mate.

I thought i had posted my range, I ran it through an ICM calculator using chip equity as guide, which is pretty much sensible. I had KQ breaking even EV wise against a person pushing roughly perfect UTG range which was something like A8s+,A9o+,j10s,qjs,qjo,kj+,22+

As said before people don't push this wide as a rule, so I think folding is pretty much the best option here in the bb.

Are ICM calculators used for MTTS or is it  just for single table tournys and sit & go's?

ICM calcs are mainly used for sngs, thats why I have mine as sngs have spots in them around the bubble that are very counterintuative.

In MTT's early on cEV= $EV so i just switched the calc to use cEV.

MTT's are analysable in ICM calcs but the problem is that you have such weird payout structures/number of runners that it is hard to get a perfect answer.

*cEV= what play gains the most chips long term
$EV= what play earns the best average payout long term.

Thanks for that.

What if caller here pushes is that a better play?

And what range of cards do you need to be calling here?

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK?

I think getting involved here with KQ o/s vs UTG shove with  players still to act behind is bad anyway you decide to play it

This is why

rotflmfao

ttt. I spent fuckinmg ages doing that