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Title: Fish? Post by: Laxie on March 19, 2008, 07:51:31 PM I'm trying to learn Omaha. After reading something Tikay posted regarding lessons with Dingdell, I've done a little bit better lately. 4 hands from the 4 cards - or I fold...except this one.
Re-buy period of the tourney. I had seen some shocking play that had me tilting a bit. After bleeding chips to the madness, I decided to say 'feck it and play this one strong pre flop in hopes of getting some of the limpers out. I was called a fish when the hand was over. I almost agree pre flop, but after: (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a167/Laxie/fish.jpg) Soooooooooooo...am I a fish and why? lol Title: Re: Fish? Post by: KarmaDope on March 19, 2008, 07:57:41 PM In a word, no. You're probably ahead on every street, I'm not sure of the exact numbers...
Title: Re: Fish? Post by: doubleup on March 19, 2008, 08:08:26 PM In a word, no. You're probably ahead on every street, I'm not sure of the exact numbers... I can't read the HH very well but doesnt the last player have a set and a higher flush draw? Title: Re: Fish? Post by: KarmaDope on March 19, 2008, 08:12:36 PM In a word, no. You're probably ahead on every street, I'm not sure of the exact numbers... I can't read the HH very well but doesnt the last player have a set and a higher flush draw? Neither can I, I missed that...oops! Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Laxie on March 19, 2008, 08:31:19 PM phival23 (4,295) SB 20
zeus18 (4,280) BB 40 A to Z (3,210) call (40) Call (180) Kd Kh 6d 2d ntacaks (5,965) Call (40) call (180) 5Laxie (2,460) raise (220) holding...wait for it...lol 6h Ac 7h Aspades VIPstephenVIPpadd (1,390) fold Dauvilliers (1,440) call (220) 8h Qh 8d Js Flop 3h 8s 5h A to Z check ntacaks check 5Laxie bet 940 Dauvilliers all in 1,220 A to Z call 1,220 ntacaks fold 5Laxie call 280 Turn 9s A to Z check 5Laxie all in 1,020 A to Z call 1,020 River...the loverly 4h sealing the str8 flush for me and the name tag of fish. rotflmfao Title: Re: Fish? Post by: GlasgowBandit on March 19, 2008, 08:40:33 PM I think the trouble with your hand is that on the flop your drawing thin to a straight. I would prefer to check the flop and then get the chips in on the turn when you gave made the nut straight.
I don't think you are getting rid of matey with his 8 Q 8 J he has flopped top set 3rd nut flush draw and he has been given a gut shot on the turn. Not sure that you ever get him to pass that at the lower limits. Fold pre. Check flop get it in on the turn. Title: Re: Fish? Post by: doubleup on March 19, 2008, 08:52:04 PM Anyway, one of the problems with omaha that I'm wrestling with a bit is this kind of situation where a "freak" holding by your opponent makes a hand that should normally be just a bit ahead/bit behind into a big dog. I'm just trying to work out whether they are just coolers or if they can be avoided given the available info.
It's probably just unfortunate in a tournament - I cant see the exact chips, but I assume that you didn't have a huge amount behind, but I think it is quite an important consideration in cash games when quite deep. Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Royal Flush on March 19, 2008, 10:03:11 PM I think the trouble with your hand is that on the flop your drawing thin to a straight. I would prefer to check the flop and then get the chips in on the turn when you gave made the nut straight. I don't think you are getting rid of matey with his 8 Q 8 J he has flopped top set 3rd nut flush draw and he has been given a gut shot on the turn. Not sure that you ever get him to pass that at the lower limits. Fold pre. Check flop get it in on the turn. Fold pre with AAxx? As for making someone pass top set and a fd, which levels are they going to do this at? Title: Re: Fish? Post by: GlasgowBandit on March 19, 2008, 10:14:33 PM I think the trouble with your hand is that on the flop your drawing thin to a straight. I would prefer to check the flop and then get the chips in on the turn when you gave made the nut straight. I don't think you are getting rid of matey with his 8 Q 8 J he has flopped top set 3rd nut flush draw and he has been given a gut shot on the turn. Not sure that you ever get him to pass that at the lower limits. Fold pre. Check flop get it in on the turn. Fold pre with AAxx? As for making someone pass top set and a fd, which levels are they going to do this at? Why wouldn't you fold AAXX pre? Afterall its only a pair and sure to be behind to many holdings. If one of the Aces where suited perhaps you could make a case for carrying on. I don't expect anyone to pass top set and the fd on the flop but certainly they can on the turn Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Royal Flush on March 19, 2008, 10:25:57 PM Why wouldn't you fold AAXX pre? Afterall its only a pair and sure to be behind to many holdings. If one of the Aces where suited perhaps you could make a case for carrying on. I don't expect anyone to pass top set and the fd on the flop but certainly they can on the turn True, most people play too many hands pre, really you should only play if you have a straight or better pre. Only really really bad players will pass top set and a flush draw on the turn. Title: Re: Fish? Post by: GlasgowBandit on March 19, 2008, 10:30:17 PM Why wouldn't you fold AAXX pre? Afterall its only a pair and sure to be behind to many holdings. If one of the Aces where suited perhaps you could make a case for carrying on. I don't expect anyone to pass top set and the fd on the flop but certainly they can on the turn True, most people play too many hands pre, really you should only play if you have a straight or better pre. Only really really bad players will pass top set and a flush draw on the turn. How do you play the hand from start to finish then? Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Royal Flush on March 19, 2008, 10:54:29 PM Exactly the same as Laxie
Title: Re: Fish? Post by: AlexMartin on March 20, 2008, 01:52:55 AM oooooh, this hand is fun. you can justify getting it in Laxie, hardly fishy.
Title: Re: Fish? Post by: RichEO on March 20, 2008, 02:49:35 AM You have raised with AA and hit as good a flop as you can expect. You have to fire a continuation bet out. And at least you have backup if you run into a hand.
The only other way this hand would have been to not raise pre flop. Once you have done, you are comitted. There is a case for never raising aces pre flop, although that makes more sense in a cash game. KK62 is by far the fish in this hand. Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Royal Flush on March 20, 2008, 02:52:53 AM Why would you never raise AAxx pre ?
Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Laxie on March 20, 2008, 08:52:48 AM I admit it was a bit dodgy to raise having only 2 hands (AA and sooooted connectors) of the 4 I should have had pre-flop, but I was beyond annoyed at that point. Once the flop came with my AA and open end straight, no way I was backing down. Wasn't too excited about the flush draw possibilities because my cards were so low and wasn't til the chips were being raked my way on the river that I even realised I had a gut shot straight flush draw. Didn't mention that to the people at the table. lol ntacaks was the one who called me a fish when it was over and I didn't reply. He'd folded on the flop, but I'd love to know what he started the hand with to say he even called pre.
As for cash games, I've been giving them a go at the micro stakes and doing pretty ok. Most I'll sit down to is the .10/.20 just yet, but sticking to the 4 hands rule has really helped. Don't win every hand I see a flop on, but the percentages have definitely gone up, so thanks TJ & co.! Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Sunday8pm on March 20, 2008, 09:09:39 AM I think the trouble with your hand is that on the flop your drawing thin to a straight. I would prefer to check the flop and then get the chips in on the turn when you gave made the nut straight. I don't think you are getting rid of matey with his 8 Q 8 J he has flopped top set 3rd nut flush draw and he has been given a gut shot on the turn. Not sure that you ever get him to pass that at the lower limits. Fold pre. Check flop get it in on the turn. Fold pre with AAxx? As for making someone pass top set and a fd, which levels are they going to do this at? Why wouldn't you fold AAXX pre? Afterall its only a pair and sure to be behind to many holdings. If one of the Aces where suited perhaps you could make a case for carrying on. I don't expect anyone to pass top set and the fd on the flop but certainly they can on the turn ................................,-~*`¯lllllll`*~,............................................. ..... ...........................,-~*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll¯`*-,.......................................... ......................,-~*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll*-,...................................... ..................,-*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\... .................................. ................;*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~*~-,llllllllllllllllllll\.................................... ................\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/...........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,................................ .................\lllllllllllllllllllll,-*.............`~-~-,...(.(¯`*,`,............................... ...................\llllllllllll,-~*........................)_-\..*`*;..).............................. .....................\,-*`¯,*`)............,-~*`~................../............................... .....................|/.../.../~,......-~*,-~*`;.................../.\.............................. .................../.../..../..../..,-,..*~,.`*~*..................*...\.......................... ... ...................|.../.../..../.*`...\................................)....)¯`~,........... ......... ...................|./..../..../........).........)`*~-,............../.....|..)...`~-,.............. .................././.../....,*`-,.....`-,....*`....,---......\...../...../..|..........¯```*~-,,,, .................(............)`*~-,.....`*`.,-~*.,-*.......|.../..../..../...............\.......... ..................*-,.......`*-,...`~,..``.,,,-*.............|.,*...,*....|.................\......... ......................*,.........`-,....)-,..................,-*`...,-*.....(`-,..............\........ ........................f`-,........`-,/...*-,___,,-~*.....,-*......|....`-,...............\....... Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Sunday8pm on March 20, 2008, 09:12:02 AM You have raised with AA and hit as good a flop as you can expect. You have to fire a continuation bet out. And at least you have backup if you run into a hand. The only other way this hand would have been to not raise pre flop. Once you have done, you are comitted. There is a case for never raising aces pre flop, although that makes more sense in a cash game. KK62 is by far the fish in this hand. ................................,-~*`¯lllllll`*~,............................................. ..... ...........................,-~*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll¯`*-,.......................................... ......................,-~*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll*-,...................................... ..................,-*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\... .................................. ................;*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~*~-,llllllllllllllllllll\.................................... ................\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/...........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,................................ .................\lllllllllllllllllllll,-*.............`~-~-,...(.(¯`*,`,............................... ...................\llllllllllll,-~*........................)_-\..*`*;..).............................. .....................\,-*`¯,*`)............,-~*`~................../............................... .....................|/.../.../~,......-~*,-~*`;.................../.\.............................. .................../.../..../..../..,-,..*~,.`*~*..................*...\.......................... ... ...................|.../.../..../.*`...\................................)....)¯`~,........... ......... ...................|./..../..../........).........)`*~-,............../.....|..)...`~-,.............. .................././.../....,*`-,.....`-,....*`....,---......\...../...../..|..........¯```*~-,,,, .................(............)`*~-,.....`*`.,-~*.,-*.......|.../..../..../...............\.......... ..................*-,.......`*-,...`~,..``.,,,-*.............|.,*...,*....|.................\......... ......................*,.........`-,....)-,..................,-*`...,-*.....(`-,..............\........ ........................f`-,........`-,/...*-,___,,-~*.....,-*......|....`-,...............\....... Title: Re: Fish? Post by: boldie on March 20, 2008, 11:54:09 AM i have to go with the migraine man there. (I am assuming the guy has a migraine as I just about have one)
There is a case for folding AAxx in Omaha pre-flop? Sure there is..but this sure as hell ain't it here and generally folding AAxx in Omaha is more often bad than good. (Unless you don't know how to play through the board?) I don't know but I'm baffled by the comment. AAxx is likely to be behind pre? I must have been playing the wrong game when I select the Omaha tab or play Omaha tourneys. Laxie played it exactly right. Nothing wrong with raising pre..nothing at all (in nicer position would have been nicer and check raising is something I prefer if I think someone behind me is going to raise anyways BUT this is fine) If the table is a limping one (which in Omaha it ussually is) but not one where everybody calls a raise, a RAISE pre-flop is MUCH better than just limping with your AAxx. Not betting the flop and turn would have been bad..it's fine with your hand to bet here. I am stunned by anyone saying that this is bad. Sure you were behind to top set and better FD on the flop but what are you gonna do, check fold?..check call? In omaha ANY flop can give someone a set and almost any flop can give someone a FD (and in this case it would be a better one) are we going to fold every time? How the chips would not go in on that flop would be beyond me...you've got nice draws coming out of your ears! and on the turn you hit and get paid! Happy days!. Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Sunday8pm on March 20, 2008, 12:59:39 PM i have to go with the migraine man there. (I am assuming the guy has a migraine as I just about have one) There is a case for folding AAxx in Omaha pre-flop? Sure there is..but this sure as hell ain't it here and generally folding AAxx in Omaha is more often bad than good. (Unless you don't know how to play through the board?) I don't know but I'm baffled by the comment. AAxx is likely to be behind pre? I must have been playing the wrong game when I select the Omaha tab or play Omaha tourneys. Laxie played it exactly right. Nothing wrong with raising pre..nothing at all (in nicer position would have been nicer and check raising is something I prefer if I think someone behind me is going to raise anyways BUT this is fine) If the table is a limping one (which in Omaha it ussually is) but not one where everybody calls a raise, a RAISE pre-flop is MUCH better than just limping with your AAxx. Not betting the flop and turn would have been bad..it's fine with your hand to bet here. I am stunned by anyone saying that this is bad. Sure you were behind to top set and better FD on the flop but what are you gonna do, check fold?..check call? In omaha ANY flop can give someone a set and almost any flop can give someone a FD (and in this case it would be a better one) are we going to fold every time? How the chips would not go in on that flop would be beyond me...you've got nice draws coming out of your ears! and on the turn you hit and get paid! Happy days!. Good post. Very accurate without overcomplicating things... Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Royal Flush on March 20, 2008, 01:14:27 PM Someone please link this thread to Dubai
Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Sunday8pm on March 20, 2008, 01:28:37 PM Someone please link this thread to Dubai lol :D insta life-tilt Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Royal Flush on March 20, 2008, 01:37:15 PM Someone please link this thread to Dubai lol :D insta life-tilt You his driver today? Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Sunday8pm on March 20, 2008, 01:49:50 PM No why, wheres he going
Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Royal Flush on March 20, 2008, 05:23:50 PM Title: Re: Fish? Post by: RichEO on March 20, 2008, 06:17:57 PM Why would you never raise AAxx pre ? It depends on you raising frequency. I'm sure you won't have a problem disguising the fact you have AAxx but others don't raise enough and it's easier to put them on the hand and you know exactly where you are. Title: Re: Fish? Post by: boldie on March 20, 2008, 10:14:51 PM Why would you never raise AAxx pre ? It depends on you raising frequency. I'm sure you won't have a problem disguising the fact you have AAxx but others don't raise enough and it's easier to put them on the hand and you know exactly where you are. But surely that means you should be raising with more hands rather than not raising with AAxx? Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Royal Flush on March 21, 2008, 05:03:36 AM Why would you never raise AAxx pre ? It depends on you raising frequency. I'm sure you won't have a problem disguising the fact you have AAxx but others don't raise enough and it's easier to put them on the hand and you know exactly where you are. But surely that means you should be raising with more hands rather than not raising with AAxx? Thankyou Title: Re: Fish? Post by: Ironside on March 21, 2008, 08:03:40 AM laxie
never in a million year would i be folding your hand prelop in an omaha "COMP" , you have to get as much money in the middle preflop as you can to try and isolate one of the other players personally i HATE the preflop call of a raise with 88QJss when so shallow on most flops you are in so much trouble and your wasting a large % of your stack as you will be folding alot of times post flop dont know what the kings were thinking if playing that hand he should be opening for a raise to find out where he is but then again its a rebuy people take risks and play bad in omaha rebuys so they can get a stack of chips for when the freezeout starts |