blonde poker forum

I visited a casino last night where I noticed something strange going on with the raking in the cash games.  The rake itself seemed very reasonable and was 5% capped at £5.  But then I noticed that for some reason, they rake all uncalled bets, as well as what is already in the pot.  So for example, if there is £5 in the pot, and for whatever reason someone moves all in on the flop for £100 and everyone folds, the whole of the £5 that was already in the pot would be taken as rake.  This also creates other problems, and I asked about this too.  Say two players are heads up in a pot and player A has £100 and the player B has £50.  If player A announces all in for £100 and player B folds, the whole of the £100 is raked, even though player B could only have called £50 if he had wanted to.  However, if player A had said "I'll put you all in" and player B folds, only £50 of it would be raked.  This is totally ridiculous.

I spoke to the card room manager about this, but then decided to take it higher up and spoke to one of the managers who has said he will speak to the general manager about it.  But I just wanted to know if anyone had ever heard of this anywhere else.  It seems completely completely stupid from where I am sitting and will only kill all the cash games in the long run as no one will be able to beat the rake.

I have always been told that "i put you all in" is NOT a proper bet and hense does NOT count.

5% rake is a joke anyway


Where is this?

I've definitely never heard of this.

When I was in Ireland dealing at the IPO last year, I was told that you raked what was in the pot and uncalled bets were never ever added to the pot.

sigh..no flop, no drop..it's the only way a place should do things.

It's still no flop no rake, but even so...

sorry my bad..so where was this?

It was at an otherwise very good casino.  I've intentionally not named them because I feel I owe them some loyalty.  I normally have a very good relationship with them.  I have since been promised that it will be reviewed and changes will be made very shortly.  If they aren't made I'll quite happily publically tell blonde who it is, as I think poker players need to be protected from situations where people seem to be determined to suck as much money out of poker as is humanly possible.

Just point out to them that an uncalled bet isn't in the pot and is the property of the player, so shouldn't be raked.

btw - to flushy, I think 5% capped at £5 is reasonable for a dealer game uk casino, given some of the nonsense figures bandied about.

Yeah prob, i have never played a raked cash game in the UK (except in illegal venues) so don't know the rate, if those are the rates then i am glad the venues i play in are still table charges!

visit lots of "illegal venues" in search of grannies do you ?

Back room of the local bingo hall!

No need to that far, they spend all their time in the Rendezvous

Imagine the scene, first time I get up from behind the screen and decide to try bricks and mortar, i pootle off to the local casino, pay my way into a comp and I'm greeted by two of the most friendly and accommodating guys you could possibly meet. They asked me if this was my first time in a live game and offered me a run through of the rules and procedures of a live game, i couldn't have asked for a better and more approachable entry into what is quite an intimidating environment. As the night drew on, a cash game was started, great another window into this world of live poker! at some point, however, the atmosphere changed. Something of a debate had started over the rake... Now I'm not sure, but not since i was eight years old have i truly thought that throwing a tantrum was the way to behave, harassing someone who is clearly not a baby eater, and who has obviously taken the point being made on board, (but was not in a position to do some thing about it there and then), sulking , and then finally walking out in a huff that only a pop diva would have been proud of. Now obviously i don't know if this is the usual way poker players communicate with those who are trying to provide an honest and enjoyable environment for them to play in, but hey, i don't think i was the only one who was thinking, "Grow up, why don't you, you've had your say now play the game".

 Qd 2d

I'm sorry, are you trying to say that you were at the casino in question that evening, and saw exactly what happened?

If so, then try and explain properly, rather than throwing unsavoury accusations around and such. The OP happens to get on very well with the guys that run the card room, in fact if it wasn't for the OP and other regular players, you wouldn't have had a cash game to play.

The casino in question is a great place for newbies to start out. It's a lovely atmosphere, and the 2 main guys are brilliant at helping internet players make the transition into live poker. You've experienced this, fair enough. However, what you have to consider is that even in a casino like that, some players are trying to earn a living solely from poker. They will take it more seriously. In this case, the OP and the other players who are trying to earn a living, are not able to do so to their full ability because of something that is clearly not right. The manager has admitted it's not right, his boss has also admitted it's not right, and it needs to be changed.

If the OP chooses to leave because of this then that is her choice. It has nothing to do with you. The cardroom manager at that casino encourages their regular players to speak up if there is a problem, and they are well known for actually listening to their customers, something a lot of casinos do not do, so I seriously doubt that the OP was "harassing" somebody, more like getting their point over properly.

Would you have reacted the same way if it was your livelihood affected? I bet you would.

Oh yeah, welcome to Blonde. I'm sure making unsavoury accusations at a well known poster on here was such a good way to start...

Venues will keep doing this un-challenged.

imho you made the right move by giving you opinion, wheather its deemed right or wrong by the casino.

Be interesting to see the outcome  :)up

I have to say I am EXTREMELY offended by this post.  From someone who's first visit it was to this casino you have no idea about the relationship I have with this casino.  As you have stated it was your first visit to a brick and mortar casino so you maybe don't full undertsand how rake usually works in live games.  What this casino had done (and I think unintenionally as the cash games are very new) was something that would 100% completely kill the game.  It was "unintentional" daylight robbery.  As someone who plays poker for a living, I would be skint by the end of the year if every casino I played in had this rake.  I first tried to explain to the supervisor WHY it was a bad idea to rake uncalled bets, using a similar explanation as I did in the original post in this thread.  That was met by a response indicating that it was out of his hands.  I did not behave like a diva, nor did I storm out in a huff.  I carried on playing in the game until I lost my money, walked out of the cardroom to bring this matter to the attention of someone more superior because I DID understand that it was out of the supervisors hands, as it always is in this casino.  I stated that I couldn't carry on playing in these games until something had changed, because it is my living.  I did not once raise my voice to anyone, nor did I sulk.  If you are referring to me sitting around in the card room not doing anything this was because I wasn't ready to go home even though I had finished playing.  I was chatting to my friends.  If you have bothered to read any of my posts in this thread, I deliberately HAVE NOT stated which casino it is, because I love that casino in general.  You are right, it is the friendliest casino I have ever visited.  I am a regular there and am very familiar and dare I say friends with many of the staff and other players.

"Grow up, why don't you, you've had your say now play the game".

Because I cannot play the game.  No one can beat the rake.  I'm sure you have a job in the real world, well this is my job and I have a right to speak up and protect myself and the other players.  For what it's worth, I have spoken to several of the other players since then, and they all 100% agreed with me on this matter.  Please don't come onto blonde and make such a harsh attacking post as your first on a matter you clearly don't understand fully.  I'm sorry if I have done anything to offend you, but I am just looking out for myself and the other players, a lot of whom are my friends.

For what it's worth, the casino in question have now stopped raking uncalled bets since it was brought to the attention of people who have the power to make changes. 

Oh yes and one more point - Myself and the cardroom manager are well known (and ribbed by the staff and other players) for out heated debates on the subject of poker, and no matter how heated it may seem, we never fall out about anything, and it is all taken as a healthy discussion.

Well put and well said mate.

I have a feeling that this might all be a set up anyway.  It has been pointed out to me that how would a new person to the live game know things like "somone...who has obviously taken the point being made on board, (but was not in a position to do some thing about it there and then)"

My money's on your friend the cardroom manager  ;D

I do not understand how as a player who attempts to make a living from poker you would entertain playing at a venue Ware there is a rake from each pot, rather than an hourly table charge,as is the case of all GC regulated casinos.
Is it because the venue is local and your incidental charges are minimal so outweighing the costs of attending a casino with hourly charges,or do you have a great feel on the other players,giving you a greater+EV.
Rake per pot is a virus that's creeping into UK poker, and through the constant bleeding of money from the table,and hence poker community,means it becomes impossible for you to sustain a living over the long term,as eventually 'new blood'will dry up.beaten out of the game by the per pot rake.
I noted this problem years ago when i played in Amsterdam Whar I was perplexed by the 6 gilders per pot rake,whare if the table stayed unbroken for a few hours, the costs are crippling.
A better example is the Star city casino in Sydney that Pab refereed to in his post. Here the $200 sit own gets raked at $8 per pot(most pots hit the max, due to the crazy playing style) plus a $1 per Han per player charge.
I won't explain the maths, but just to say that if a 10 man table sit down together for 4 hrs without bringing new money in, and starting with $200 each, and no new players coming or going,the house takes all the money on the table.
A quick explanation can be given, but you can work it out for yourself.
So as Flushey says, never play in anywhere except a venue that hourly charges.
Rake per pot is a cancer, that will, if it is allowed to get out of hand, or if more unregulated venues are allowed to flourish  will kill live poker.
live poker cannot bear this bleeding out of money from the playing community.
Vote with your feet.

excellent post, hourly charges are MUCH preferred.

DTD rakes from the pot, and it doesn't appear to be putting people off.  Maybe it is from the higher stakes games, I don't know. 

With respect Kin, that's not the point. You can't beat the "rake" on roulette, or a one arm bandit, but it doesn't put people off.

An hourly charge is also a "rake", this is not as clear cut as saying rake is bad , hourly charge is good.

For players such as Tom and myself the rake at DTD is not a hinderance as opposed to paying say £10 per hour.

With respect, that was exactly the point:

Correct. Obviously what really matters is the size of the rake or the hourly charge.

Depends on the stake you play your cash game at compared to the hourly charge. The 2-2 Omaha which we played didn't that have a 5% rake with a max of 8£?  (I think, so correct me if I'm wrong on this one) I know I'd rather pay a tenner an hour than the above.

It depends very much on one's style of play. The more pots one plays then obviously the more rake one pays.

Ralph, I understand that entirely,and it's true you Tom and propably myself by virtue of our style of play can ourselves make it pay.(though I will not myself play at a raked table). For the greater poker community Per Pot rake is very bad for the game and as in Boldies example can be excessive,and a real strain on players finances over time.

Kin, due to personal circumstances,I've not had the pleasure of attending DTD, though I'm coming to BB6. and didn't realize they raked per pot.I can only imagine those that pay the rake willingly,accept the cost for the overall expiries they are getting for their money.I must however keep the faith, and unfortunately have to concider my stance on playing cash at DTD, though as I said to Ralph, my style of play may allow attendance,we'll see,depends how strong my resolve!

And thus, Compo pays £596 per hour, because he's in every pot, & Karabiner, depite paying the Max Rake on both hands he plays each night, contributes £16...... (that includes his OAP rebate)

It's all relative though Brendan, depending on the amounts.

Would you rather pay £50 per hour, or 1% per pot?

I agree..but if we pay a max of 8£ rake per pot and would compare that with, say, a 10£ an hour table charge..everybody pays more when the pot is raked as we surely all play more than 1 pot an hour? I am not complaining about the rake at DtD but an hourly charge is much preferred if the hourly charge is reasonable...and it should be much preferred by almost all players in most cases. (unless you are the nit of all nits and I dare suggest most people in a live cash game (especially dealers choice) are not.

The main reason most people think they prefer a rake to be taken out of the pot is because they don't like paying a lump sum which they consider to come out of their poker budget for that evening, whereas they consider rake that is taken out of the pot to be coming out of their poker winnings.

If you take your average session I think you'll find that a table charge of around 10£ an hour is not actually more expensive.

It would be interesting to hear from someone at a place like DtD or a casino about what they think an average table charge (per hour) would actually be at each level..only then can you compare it to the rake they currently charge.

Raked pots are not bad per se, the problem is that venues are exploiting the fact that with raked pots it is difficult to track how much money is being taken off the table, meaning venues can set the rake at a level which would bring in more money than the equivalent hourly charge. Even the densest person can calculate how much the table loses when some guy comes round every hour and takes £10 from everyone.

Maybe one of the cash nits that plays at DTD or another raked venue can keep track of how much rake is taken in an hour as they sit there waiting to get dealt a hand in their opening range. It would be interesting to compare it to what the hourly charge would be for that table.

Where has the word "Nit" suddenly come from, and what does it mean?

You, of all people, should know :)

An really tight poker player. Don't know they exact etymology but would guess it comes from the fact that poker nits hang on to their money the way head nits hang on to hair.

Of course, I now expect someone to say that it actually comes an old term of abuse for gay handicapped poker players and so shouldn't be used by people nowadays as some people may take offence.

For the unenlightened here is the dramatic effect the per pot rake can be a disaster for the players.

Based on the figures outlined n Pabs 'well' thread,and those seen live by me at the STAR city casino in Sydney.
At the $200 sit down cash table.At the Star, this means everone sits down with $200.
So on a 10 man table there's $2000 at the table.
Each pot is raked $8 max,and as I've said in another thread,ALL pots hit the max rake. plus theres a $1 per hand charge from each player.
So assuming 30 hands per hr, that's 30*8+30*(1*10)=$540 per hr
There assuming 10 sit down play for 4 hrs with no one adding money, and no new players means the house takes all the money the players sit down with.
I know this is an extreme, though true example, but it shows what can happen in an unregulated system,and this is my concern,if venues are allowed to squeeze they will and the poker community will suffer.
DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/index.php?affiliate=blonde)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/index.php?affiliate=blonde) charge according to Boldie £8 max per pot rake. Be aware folks
Thin end of the wedge. springs to mind.
Not all venues have management that are as caring of the poker community as Rob and co.

Just to avoid any confusion..I think that's what it was when playing the 2-2 Omaha cash game..someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 it actually comes an old term of abuse for gay handicapped poker players and so shouldn't be used by people nowadays as some people may take offence.

Is that an official AQA II answer?

The one time I made the long journey up to Nottingham a friend of mine was playing heads up against someone at a table at DTD and despite making the guy lose his initial buy in and 'dog's life' half buy in he actually ended up losing a small amount having played not much longer than one hour on the table!

I know Rob Yong is running a business but I feel their raking system is a little excessive when DTD is meant to be a venue that caters for the pure poker player. As a regular at the Gutshot in London I feel the same is true of this place. I myself dont mind paying these rake charges as I am not playing for a living and happy to support such places but i certainly wouldnt play anywhere in any venue that had house games (basically casinos) that raked a cash game as opposed to charging a session fee.

You are correct Boldie the rake at DTD for £1/£2 and £2/£2 is presently capped at £8.

The £5/£5 games are capped at £10.

These figures are not set in stone and may be(and have already been)adjusted if and when the management feel it is necessary.

OK..if it is capped at 8£ and a table charge of a tenner per player per hour is thought of as the norm I would suggest every player should want to pay an hourly rate rather than a rake. I think this would only change once the hourly rate would go up to about 20£.

I hope i didn't say that, i have played in many rake venues but i always prefer the hourly charge.

Rake is fine as long as its reasonable, Vegas is usually pretty fair, having said that last time i was there i went to the bellagio because 30-60+ was 1/2 hourly charges!

I am not aware that anyone suggested that anybody was being a nit, reread AndrewT's post.

also coming into use as the verb to nit = to wait for a playable/premium hand, so we should soon be seeing the regular use of the word nitting

intersting.  So if a player is really nitty one could say he's nitting a sweater rather than just your regular nit, who  might be nitting a pair of socks.

Greekstein's post reads strangely out of context - did he delete it afterwards?

yeah - i did delete it. why? it was strangely out of context. lol

sorry i was picking up fag ends from the thread so to speak and didnt read a couple of comments properly hence why i deleted that post! sorry

We always - I think - use the Rake method when we play Online Cash, & accept that without protest.

Why so, I cannot help but wonder?

If it's such a bad thing Live, why is it OK Online, where so many players claim to be able to beat the Rake with some to spare? Bearing in mind, too, that Online play is 3 or 4 times faster than Live Play, & thus I assume, we pay a lot more Rake.

Personally, in Live play, I'm ambivelant really - I can find arguments for & against both sides, but I'm quite happy to play either way, as both have pros & cons. I must say I do find it an irritant when Tables break because the Table Charge has fallen due, but, you know, there's merit to both arguments.

I do find it strange how we call a few hundred quid quite easily with a so-so hand, & yet beef about Rake or Table Charges though. We are a strange bunch.

Tikay just posted my thoughts raking each hand is the online way and has proven to work allowing the winners to make a profit and the losers not notice it. Which keep everyone sort of happy and keeps the game moving along.

The problem comes when the rake is so high that the regulars notice it and vote with their feet, therefore the games don't run and ultimately everyone loses.

DTD got mention in this and without going into the arguement about overheads, what a great place it is. Having played the cash games down there if you are anywhere near half comptent at poker, you will beat the games quite handly.

agreed..the cash games at DtD are the softest I've seen anywhere for a long time..atleast the 50-1 and the 2-2 were..don't know about the higher levels.

Probably accept online rake becuase its capped at $3 (£1.52 approx) and most multi tablers get rakeback?

exactly Simon.......................and you can sit in your pants,eating pizza at no cost.