blonde poker forum

Final table of the Blonde $5 f/o, 472 runners, 5 remain, blinds 5k/10k

UTG has been very solid, has shown down good hands and hasn't been tricky, raises with both steals and high pp's so v. hard to read, has 160k chips (3rd)

UTG raises to 40k, passes to me in the BB with 210k (2nd).

Holding  8d 8s

What's the best move here? Given his play to this point, I'm finding it very difficult to put him on a range of hands, he's shown a couple of un-called raises (when 6/7 handed) one was QQ, the other 810s, most of the times he's been called or raised he's been able to win either by holding a good hand or out-playing post-flop, so I'm giving him a lot of respect here.

I reckon flat-calling is the worst thing here as I'm OOP on the flop, so it's either a) min raise, meaning he's pot committed to pot it all-in on the flop, b) raise all-in and hope it's a race. c) fold and give away 10k.

I reckon both a and b would result in an all-in pre-flop so might as well push myself.

I folded pre as an UTG raise for 25% of his stack even though only 5-handed implies he's happy to play for all his chips. At best I'm racing, at worst I'm the under-pair.

Should I be looking at this hand as an opportunity to win the tourney as if I take it down I'll have about 375k with the next player on 225k and therefore be in a great position to take it down, or is it an unnecessary gamble?

Yours views on this sort of situation would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers Peeps.

looks like ideal stop and go territory to me. flat pre, jam not too terrible boards, like Q73, K92 etc is more optimal than flipping/dogging v a fairly tight range i assume. Risky, but fun :)

errrr this is a shove, anything else is just spewing equity

I either shove or fold here...most likely shove and find myself cursing as he calls with a marginal hand like KQ off suit and hits

Firstly, i like the way youve written the question, explains everything we need to know, and what your thinking about your options...

I dont think we can fold here, not 5 handed...  I would only flat call knowing i'm pushing virtually any flop as a deceptive move, but more than likely they all go in pre-flop...

"WHAT IS THE BEST MOVE HERE"

depends really. If you like money you shove. If you have fallen out with your money you flat or fold.

why do players always have this mentality?  This sort of paranoia makes mtt players on a whole really exploitable. You say he say shown 8Ts after him raising pre, therefore his range is probably almost any2 here. Your 88 plays very well against that range.
   Also on ipoker without running antes people are more willing to raise/fold with  less than 15bb. even more so in $5 mtt. Snap shove FTMFW

FIGJAM

why shove>sng w this stack. Assuming hero wont bottle it. zero FE pre, some post some of the time. We obv arent folding, but v racing ranges i think my play beats yours.

Thanks for the comments guys, but I'm finding it hard to understand why the view is that the shove is so ++++EV as everyone seems to indicate.

Folding, I lose 5% of my stack, which can easily be regained with a steal myself. Shoving, I'm risking (basically) my entire tournament on a coin-flip (at best). I'm getting 50/50 on my money, so I want to be at least 50/50 to win in order to take this bet. Surely that makes sense in odds terms.

If I'm either, a) Racing, I'm marginally ahead so odds wise it's a good call or; b) 7/1 underdog which odds wise is a very bad thing.

Some of the phrases used such as "spewing equity" and "depends really. If you like money you shove. If you have fallen out with your money you flat or fold" seem to indicate that a shove here is the best move over the course of time, however, given the stats, I can't see how this is ++++EV. I can't see it being more than 52/48 in my favour.

I fully understand that the guy is playing A2C and I'm pretty sure I'm ahead, but I know that with 25% of his stack in, I have no fold equity. I would much rather be pushing and stealing than calling and gambling.

My point is why risk everything calling-off in a marginal situation when given the stack sizes (av 20BB) there is still room for some play here. What is so wrong in looking for a 60/40 situation to shove, surely this will end up in a higher ROI over the course?

Cheers guys.

As many people have said before, Poker is a game of decisions and pushing people to make bad decisions. I would much rather be putting those decisions on other people by pushing myself (with fold equity) than calling off and just hoping the Gods will be good to me.

This post just put me on uber tilt.

Am going to wait at least 1hr before replying to avoid a forum ban.

lol, quality

I'm sorry if I've said something you that you have found offensive here. I'm still a novice at this game and am trying to learn.

So I'm sorry if what I've said is a load of ill-conceived tripe, but the question I asked is still a valid one. If I am wrong, can someone tell me why so that I can learn.

I'm part of Blonde because I enjoy the jovial banter and the willingness of (much) better players to help teach newbies and novices like myself. If I've got this idea wrong then I'll gladly feck off and not come back.

;popcorn;

 ;boldie;

I don't think i am ready yet so will do it in stages.

How are you ever 7-1 pre with a PP?

tuffster, you say you are a novice but you speak so objectively. This board is all about gathering opinions and thoughts on hands and situations. You can do a lot worse than to listen to flushy on this matter.

Im sure he will reply to your post soon in a constructive and educated manner. A few bullet points for you if i may be so bold.

• 20bb average stack is a crapshoot and no amount of +ev should be passed up.
• it is possibe he is raising and folding to a shove with a rag ace/connectors/two pictures etc..
• with a 20bb stack 5 handed the best ploy imo is to shove on a lot of peoples button raises with semi-decent hands, or shove on utg with pairs + AT+
• people will be trying to ladder up the pay scale in a $5 tourney so their calling ranges are a lot tighter than you would imagine.
• if, say you pass the 88 pre, and dont find a playable hand until you have 10bb then get AK v 44 and win the race, you are back to where you were with the 88= 20bb

FIGJAM

ok whats figjam?

Fk I'm Good   Just Ask Me

Action Man,

Thanks for the advice and pointers here, it's greatly appreciated, some pointers on where I can improve my game are what I'm looking for so that hopefully soon I'll become a more proficient player and hopefully start to turn enough of a profit to fund my rabid alcoholism.

I concur that Flushy is an excellent player whose advice is greatly appreciated, however, when he implied that I'd written the most stupid post in the history of Blonde, I did rather take offence to that. I know I'm no where near being a proficient player and I was looking for someone to tell me why my rationalising was deficient, so thanks again for the pointers above, they spell it out for me.


Mis-type on my part, should have been 7-2 dog to an overpair. (I'm probably wrong here as well though)

Like I've said, I'm not a good player, I just play for fun and have become part of Blonde to join in the witty Badinage and pick up some helpful advice along the way. So to everyone out there I offended with my lack of knowledge, I'm sorry, don't worry, it won't happen again.

Right, so if he has 22-77 pre what does he do?

He still has the option to fold, you deffo have fold equity here.

He has opened to 4xBB with no antes, this weights his hand towards the lower range, smaller pairs and big aces.

You are going to be an 80-20 fave here more often than an 80-20 dog.

"Racing, I'm marginally ahead so odds wise it's a good call" Do you play live a lot? This is a major tilt issue, shoving with FE is not the same as calling!!!!


Its not 52-48, if i run this through with a range of 22-TT AT+ (i am assuming he is raising less with the biggest pairs) ignoring all the times he is raising with T8 again, and all the times he folds AT when you jam. You are still a 58% favourite.

You are not good enough to pass up 58%, simple as. In reality i think his raising range is much wider and you have FE so will pick up chips far more often. Thus further boosting your equity.

P.S. 20BB does not leave room to play.

Posted by: Tuffster

I am very much in favour of the shove here myself, and as such i'm afraid I don't agree with your logic Tuffster. We're playing short-handed poker and there are 4 other players hunting this victory. Retreating from situations like this and justifying it with marginal stats just means you're going to get battered in this format. Much better to be pressuring the table and calling the shots yourself.

Short-handed poker is about getting people to move out of your way rather than moving out of theirs. Pushing is +ev because your fold equity is huge and your image will be good. Hard to control proceedings when you fold your cards.

I held back the tears for a whole page untill i got to this comment, they came.

If the first bit is true then you needn't be too fussed about fold equity, although it is a nice bonus if he just rolls over.