blonde poker forum

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5 left in a live MTT, standard payout structure

blinds are 1500-3000 and there are 300,000 in play

passed to the button who has 75,000

He makes it 18,000 to play, which is way above the standard table raise....

the SB passes

the BB, who travels around with the button and has 80,000, sighs and flat calls the 18,000


on a board of 6 5 5 8 J, no flushes possible

Both players check 3 times

on their backs

BB shows AQ suited

Button turns over KK and wins the pot

the short-stack complains to dealer and asks for a ruling on "soft play"

You are the TD

what do you say?


a) there is no case to answer here, KK is nowhere near the nuts, deal the next hand

b) this is soft play, its bad etiquette and if witnessed again will be punished

c) its outright collusion, 10 minute penalty away from the table for the button

d) you say nothing

e) do you come to another conclusion?

A or D

c).

Exactly the same thing, I'm told, happened in the Betfred Girlie Tourney at Reading on Saturday. Neither the Dealer nor the TD said a word.

It's not really the Dealer's fault - they needed training as to these matters. But it has to be done.

Something along these lines also happened at DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/index.php?affiliate=blonde)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/index.php?affiliate=blonde) last week I'm very reliably informed - but the Senior Management there are all ears & eyes, & action has been decided - it won't happen again!

We have to sort this trait out, it's bang wrong. A few Ban-Sticks will do the job.

I'm with the wise one on this one. C for me.

I think i go with C.

In fact i think I just throw them both out the tournament for being so stupid. Raise, fold on the river no ones any the wiser.

how can C be correct? you rule that 2 players are colluding and then punish 1 of them? don't think so

who said punish one?

KK has the made hand and The bb Ace high

could button be soft playing his bb friend, and bb blameless? (rhetorical)

Sorry, I misread the question. Shoot them both.

op

fyp

OK, shoot the Button twice.

There is way too much of this crap these days.

yes but then that's not answer C you see

e) it is then!

Ah...shoot them both IMO. AQ guy/girl might just be hopeless and scared of the 5 (lmao) but KK player should really be shot.

I don't think this can be ruled as outright collusion - hard to pin anything on the BB when he hasn't hit, and is out of position.  I'd go with B here.

Sad to hear this sort of stuff is still apparently happening on the women's tour.  I got into a right hoo ha last year when rumours were flying round about similar stuff happening then - seemed like no one was interested in doing anything about it.  A lot of the dealers at Reading seemed to be fairly new to dealing poker, and we had to help them out a bit at times.

i think the exact opposite

d

I did too actually

I saw far more blame with the button than the bb

though really all-in pre was what I would have expected.

You are both right of course.  I misread it as the Button having AQ and the BB having KK.  KK guy is the soft player.  I'll edit my post accordingly! 

OK most of us would push in the AQ....but (in order to try and ladder up and not go out), calling the raise to hit and then checking to see all 5 cards isn't that unusual !!

The button is clearly soft playing and should be punished.....c)

I agree - I'd probably have played AQ the same (I know, I know)

I would take both players into the car park and beat a confession out of them :)

Surely the button could just say 'I thought he was trapping with a 5' - end of discussion.

It's not up to the dealer or TD to tell a player how to play his hand.

Only if it becomes a pattern could you use circumstancial evidence to punish the players - as a one-off you can't, otherwise you leave yourself open to ruling on every hand where two players who knew each other got involved. If one bets the turn and the other folds, are you going to ask to see every hand 'just in case they're colluding'?

I vote g)

/endthread

I wanted to say something along these lines but couldn't be bothered. Punishing anyone here is wrong imo.

The circumstantial evidence is there. It's never, or rarely, going to be proveable (as in a Court of Law) as such.

And if a few innocent players should get pernalised, or just given a "strike one - warning" well no great harm will have been done, & the message will get out. It's becoming endemic, & something has to be done, but it's almost never 100% prove-able. Too bad, shoot a few innocent ones, life will go on. Try to avoid those with theatrical tendancies though.

All that's needed here is a semi-jokey comment from the TD - 'I hope you two aren't always going to check down an overpair, ha ha'. Gets the message across that if there was anything dodgy, and it happens again, it will be noticed.

Well that would be a good place to start I suppose. Then can we have them shot?

If they were colluding wouldnt they before the start have agreed  ''any over-raises = fold''?

Tikay, your post is almost all nonsence. Obviously something has to be done but you simply cannot think it will be fine to punish innocent people on a hunch.
A word in the ear, or announcement, in any such instance should be a starting point.

Move the short stack to the car park.

Agree as far as the BB is concerned here - if I got punished for playing the hand as played I'd not be happy.  Certainly enough evidence to give the button a warning though imo.

I really don't think there is nearly enough evidence to merit a warning in the example provided.

Sorry I find myself agreeing with Attilla the Tikay on this one. The only way to stamp it out is to punish both. If the big blind hasn't tried to steal he should be shot anyway for a lack of spine. I have on occassion checked three times to get induce the bluff on the river.....does that make me guilty. If they were colluding why would they both show. The guy with the kings would show and the other guy would throw their hand in the muck

Am I missing something or have you agreed with both sides in your post?

Well, it may be nonsense in your opinion, but I'm not sure that just because we think different makes my view "nonsense".

As I already said, in reply to the noble Lord Andrew, yes, a word in their ear for starters is fine.

But the fact that it's a difficult thing to prove has been the excuse behind which poker has hidden for far too long, & it's become almost accepted now. We may live in a wet society, but if we don't tackle this firmly, now, this cancer on Tourney Poker will come to be part of the game. The players who were (allegedly, reportedly) doing it in Reading last weekend never even knew it was wrong.....!

If a few innocents along the way get a slap round the chops in curing this, well too bad. It may be nonsense in your opinion, fine, but I see this happening almost every night. It's a bad bad thing, & it has to be tackled.

Irrespective of your views on how this hand was played, (always a subjective thing) how would you deal with the rampant collusion that is polluting the Live Game these days?

A career in politics awaits

My apologies, the use of the word "nonsense" was wrong here.

I don't play a massive amount of live poker, perhaps 3 or 4 times a month, and tbh I'm not totally sure of the course of action that should be taken. I've not noticed this type of collusion in my local cardroom but if I ever spot collusion I point it out sharpish.

I don't suppose announcements at the start of the tournaments with warnings (as well as asking other players to be vigilant) would suffice really?

Thanks fella, we are just chewing the cud here

I quite like your final sentence.

I play a good deal of Live Poker, & I see a lot of soft play / same viillage / collusion / cheating. We have to stop it.

i may have read op wrong and  i have'nt read the restof thread but beetween these 2 players they have half the chips in play, they both then put %25 of there stack on the line (the loser will then be under avrg) then slow play..

If they are colluding why would they call each other in the first place, and why would you ship %25 of your stack to someone and then slow play it, I put this down to just cagey play nothing else.

And what exactly do you know about being a TD?

Oops - just remembered who you are. Or were......;)

I hear you, but it's soft play. Someone has to go broke on this hand, or at least make a play at it down the streets.

I can't imagine any reason why some sort of Flop Bet was not made, if not by A-Q man, then certainly by K-K man, & that assumes the pre-flop play was "correct".

but now we're getting in to the realms of punishing people for not playing a hand 'well'.  We all play hands badly from time to time.......

I agree, I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest they're working together, so option (b) would be the most appropriate and having done that you certainly would expect not see the problem again between them.

thanks tk, I am still that person tho, hav'nt totaly forgot everything..

But as claw said its punishing people for not playing a hand well, its not collusion because they would'nt have called in the first place. If we start punishing people for playing hands badly we will lose all the value out of the game, and kev won't even be allowed to sit down...

It was a £100 Comp, not a £5 Rookie job, & the players knew - trust me - exactly how they'd play this against anyone else.....

do you really think the play of the AQ was that perverse?

And if we allow same village-soft play to go unchecked we will also lose the "value out of the game".

I've never - never ever - seen a single person penalised for soft play/collusion in a UK Venue, despite that fact I've spotted it & reported it several times. The players must play the game properly, but some responsibility sits with TD's/Cardroom Supervisors/Floor too, & they must accept their responsibility to address such issues. Are you saying it never happens?

Was it Jennifer Tilley with the KK???

Arguably, no.

But K-K man was happy to check behind every street, just waiting for an A to fall, that's OK? I think not.

lol 'I thought he had pocket fives'

I agree

of course it happens, we've all seen it (as a td and a player) but so much goes on all the time, people will soft play but how do we monitor it ?.

Mike

what are Grosvenor's TDs doing about this?

Not enough IMO..its turn a blind eye because it's too difficult etc etc

Make a few rulings, make it known its not tolerated and it stops, in time

So you  - one of the most Senior, experienced, best, & most respected TD's in the UK agree that it happens "all the time" - you clearly do - but think there is nothing we should try & do to prevent it? With respect, I'm astonished.

Let's agree we have a problem - I think we do agree, your Post says as much.

So now we have to find a means to combat it. And if a few innocents get mistakenly punished, by, say, an Orbit or two away from the Table, too bad, they won't die. We need to do something, & the innocent players deserve the same protection that the "same villagers" have enjoyed for so long.

I plan to chain myself to Buckingham Palace railings & go on hunger strike, or streak across a Cardroom, unless something is done.

Tk I think i'm blushing...ty

But I did'nt say that we should'nt try and stop it, it's a very hard thing to judge. I mean who am I (although I do like your description of me...although I notice no mention of attractive) but who am I to say someone has'nt played a hand properly.

I can see it now some jumped up littl td strolling across the room "excuse my Mr Threw I don't think you played that hand correctly, that'll be a lap out for you".

It's all well saying we will address all the problems in poker but do you think the staff are upto it ? and to me that is the crux of the matter..

i apore soft play and collusion (why i donmt play MTT team comps)

but in this case i dont think there is a case to answer

if there was they would of went raise fold preflop

as if someone was softplaying why get involved when there is only the 2 of you in the pot with same stacks

after the flop yes the kings could of bet out but he might of been looking for the BB to bet out on turn or river

on the river there isnt much point in the KK betting out as he will only get paid or reraised by a better hand

this way he knows he gets to win the pot if he is ahead anyway

  [ x ]   Hunger Strike.

  [   ]   Doesn't 'bare' thinking about.

....but can we have a rule in place which can be enforced at one level but not at another? 

what does this mean please?

he means deplore.

I think

he's beyond salvation.

you don't need to. rules don't have a fixed penalty so at your fiver rookie night you hand out warnings and explain why, with more experienced players who clearly know that what they're doing is wrong you shoot them and then make them sit out 2 orbits

The amount of buyin isn't always a sign of knowledge (or ability)!

no but the words rookie and experienced were used with good reason

Let's forget the actual play of the hand in question.

We know it goes on, & we know one of the most experiencecd (ex?) TD's in UK Poker knows it - he said as much.

So, Phase 2. What we do do about it? All this "well we can't really do anything" does not wash with me. Why are we so scared of punishing, possibly, a few "innocent" players (it's only, on first strike, an Orbit or two) rather than being pro-active & actually dealing with what is a serious & growing problem?

Why are we all so damn scared of grasping this nettle?

Agreed, but you take my point, I'm sure. These guys knew better.

I just don't see why we are bending over backwards to be fair to the suspected colluders, while the guys who play the game properly have no such protection.

I go for C as although I understand the sentiment, I don't think you can penalise the other player for not bluffing a pot.

how many places were paid?

7, all were in the money

payout 1400-900-630-500

maybe he means abhor -- there really is no hope for him at all

I reckon it's abhor..

did the players know each other?

i tried collusion once and my mate knocked me out ffs. It doesnt work in the long run.

There are rules in play already for this TK in Grosvenors for not playing the game in a sporting fashion, I agree that we should do something about it, but my main concern would be the ability of td's  that would have to decide who was soft playing and who was just playing like a welshman

A true friend would fold A10 after raising to 24,000 and it only costs another 6,000 to look up AA. Honestly.

tell the story of the A5 v AJ on an AA5 flop mate :D

not on a public forum, i like my legs ;)

declaring ur hand to the table and telling the dealer 'don't worry, he is calling' didnt really help. was trying to help u, u were very shortstacked and obv out of ur depth at that final table and could obviously do with the chips. ur aces werent even suited so dont moan.

The essence of the problem is that most players and casino staff do not understand what constitutes collusion or soft play, they don't really know what it is or why it is against the rules.

You cannot ask cardroom staff to enforce a rule that they do not understand and penalise players that do not know that they have done anything wrong.

When I first began running tournaments I would be very reluctant to get involved in a situation that was likely to provoke an angry and confused response particularly when I was likely to get little or no support from casino management.

If you want to start making taking punitive measures against colluders or 'suspected colluders' then the poker community first need to be educated as to the different behaviors that constitute a breach of the rules and, perhaps more importantly, why those behaviors are considered to be cheating.

It goes on far more than we'd like to belive I think. I saw a thing or two very very dodgy indeed, very recently but decided I am a chicken and chose not to be proved right or wrong.

+1


As far as the OP is concerned, you might as well not have bothered.  There is no way that anything can be done about this for several reasons probably the most important being that the staff don't have the knowledge or the inclination to make these kind of decisions.  If you don't like it, don't come back and if others don't like it they shouldn't go back. 

I LOLed.

It's not that it's the casino staff being uneducated, but every single situation in poker is different. It's very hard to tell a player that "You didn't think to bet your Kings at all throughout the hand, and so we have reason to believe you are colluding or soft playing your hand now we're giving you a penalty."

Having heard the incident told to me by another blonde member, and realizing that these two individuals are friends, it's a little different. By friends, I mean two people that arrive in the same, talk to each other in their own language in between hands and generally are considered friends, then yes, I think there's more of a window for somebody to step in and say something. One of those incidents that require the application of common sense and knowledge to a particular situation, really.

It's just very hard to rule on, and potentially opening yourself up to a lot of trouble in the future.

I was playing $2/$5 in the Wynn with Riverdave last night.

He was in the BB with  7c 2h 5 way action limp to him and he checked the BB

Flop came  Jc Jd 7d  UTG bets $15 his buddy next to him called all others folded.

Turn and river check check UTG shows  7h 7s his buddy calls  Jh Js. Riverdave makes a compliant to dealer who just shugs and deals the next hand.

Ok its cash game not a comp but surely something should of been done

yikes....why don't we just go back to the old days..just punch the crap out of two guys that play like that..like the cops did in Rounders

 :goodpost:

Why should anything be done? Unless they are actively colluding against other players or there is a rule in the casino that soft-playing isn't allowed, no one is affected.

everybody is affected as it means there will be less money on the table.

There will be the same amount of money on the table DUCY?

Not if someone is stacked and reloads (as would usually happen here).

Ture but thats not what boldie said..

Sorry mate, that's what I meant though.

You might have a point there but I'm not sure that it's grounds for hanging tho.

Anyway the hand is obv made up Riverdave is never folding a 7 on that flop.