blonde poker forum

Notes on player were, pretty tight ABC had 3bet me once previously and id 4-bet jammed JJ and lost v his KK. When he flatted me pre i kinda narrowed his range down to mid pairs and AJ/QK type hands.

PokerStars Game #18682585912: Tournament #94741694, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level XXI (4000/8000) - 2008/07/14 - 20:36:59 (ET)
Table '94741694 12' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: RiVeRs HoMe (658184 in chips)
Seat 2: ThEcLaiMEer (256265 in chips)
Seat 4: Lustcarr (577431 in chips)
Seat 7: Swansen (541583 in chips)
Seat 8: Mixclusive (165302 in chips)
Seat 9: ioalou (416780 in chips)
RiVeRs HoMe: posts the ante 800
ThEcLaiMEer: posts the ante 800
Lustcarr: posts the ante 800
Swansen: posts the ante 800
Mixclusive: posts the ante 800
ioalou: posts the ante 800
Mixclusive: posts small blind 4000
ioalou: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ThEcLaiMEer [9c 9d]
RiVeRs HoMe: folds
ThEcLaiMEer: raises 12250 to 20250
Lustcarr: calls 20250
Swansen: folds
Mixclusive: folds
ioalou: folds
*** FLOP *** [6d 7c 3h]
ThEcLaiMEer: bets 32000
Lustcarr: calls 32000
*** TURN *** [6d 7c 3h] [2s]
ThEcLaiMEer:???

what is everyones plan going into the turn we have 200k left.

are you;

check/calling
check/raising
check/folding
bet/calling
bet/ folding 

and why?

Oooooooh i remember this hand! An absolute stinker. Did he tell u what he had after he got knocked out Rick?

c/c then c/c to let him bluff and value bet worse.  obviously if the rivers a 9 ill prob c/r or donk it depending on reads

im check/raising to see where i am imo

Are you folding if you check raise and he shoves?

No sure you can check raise here, as it becomes a check shove. Pot is 121k and if he leads, he will lead for 80k I'd imagine, and it's not like you can min raise leaving 40 behind and then fold.

If your read on how he plays is correct (and he wouldn't get cute with a big pair), it's looking an awful lot like a set, or even TT because there is no flush draw to be hanging around with if he has a suited AQ/AJ.  Dunno - it's a tough one.  I might be pretty lame, and check fold unless he makes it really cheap, as you still had 200k so a decent amount to work with.  Based on what your say on the player, 88 might be the only hand you are beating right now.

Quite a bit here for me depends on the payout structure.  If it's pretty flat for a while would be a lot more tempted to chance my arm.


Tough spot all in all.

He cannot be flat calling the flop with TT/JJ and possibly QQ.... This would be yuck.

KK/AA seem likely here, otherwise flopped set.

He could of course be floating here, I think I prob lead for 65k and if he ships them in I reluctantly fold with tourney still in tact.

But previous time the villain had KK he re-raised pre-flop, so unless he's varying his play, seems more likely he has midpair or 2 big cards this time.  I'd classify TT as mid pair, and wouldn't necessarily re-raise with it in his position, unless Hero has been raising light.

Didn't read initial comments tbh.
Was just going with no notes.

Some players do mix it up tho you know! And trigg is known to raise light.

I don't think you want to let this pot get out of control and so I don't mind checking. Not really with a view to giving up on it but more to see what he does. I think the info you get from your oppos bet size (if he does indeed bet) is going to be of a better quality to determine his hand than the you bet he shoves scenario. You put 65k in, he shoves, you fold, is not the best use of 65k imo because you will never get better hands to fold. Checking the turn allows worse hands the chance to bluff, you get to see the river for maybe less than 65k/maybe free, you get better info. I think I like this best because the board itself isn't a worry. He's either got it or he's floating and pumping another 65k only gets you losing money when he has it, and he probably has it.

 But putting another 65k in means you take his chance away to bluff you (90%) of the time...

Pot is big enough now to take down..

You check, he bets 65k what do you do?
You check, he bets 85k, what do you do?
You check, he bets 100k, what do you do?

Posted by: Rookie (Rodney)

If you take away his chance to bluff you then how are you going to make money from the hand on those occasions where you do have the best of it and thus turn an overall profit from this sort of situation generally? If you bet again into a floater he will prob fold. If you bet into a set you lose those chips and may face a shove. So you would only bet on this dry board to get better hands to fold, which wont happen, or for value. Yes he could have 4's, 5's or 8's and will call a value bet, but it's just as likely that he has a set or over pair and so betting is just setting yourself up to play an expensive pot.

The pot might be big enough to take down but can you take it down by betting? and why would you want worse hands to fold when the chances they'll improve are rather slim? I would call a 65k bet and prob push a 100k bet. Close though Rookie and I'm not saying you're wrong.

The reason I am betting is to try and make the most easy way out of what is now a tough situation.

Betting out again will not force out any better hands tofold, i agree. It just stops the risk of us going broke to better hands - by check shoving, and stops the risk of us being bluffed, by check folding.

I don't get why you would want to check call in this spot at all tbh... But each to there own!

The reason I want to check call is I think it is likely whoever has the best hand right now will have the best hand at showdown. Betting gives any hand we beat right now the easy way out of this tough situation not us imo. I'm not sure I want out just yet anyway. Only worse hands fold if we bet, but I don't want worse hands folding. I want them to take a stab for the 65k I was just about to put in anyway and also I deny them the chance to raise me off the hand. I want the pot to stay within the realms of how likely I am to have the best hand. I see the chances as fair but not great, so I don't want the pot to get too big. Betting allows all hands to inflate the pot by raising whether they beat us or not. This works better in context to how I play because if I raised with 4-5 pre I would c-bet the flop and check the turn as well.

I don't like this play at all.If my "quick" maths are right the pots about 110k so you want to check with the intention of raising it if he bets as little as half the pot, a min raise would have you pot committed if he moves over the top.

I agree with mantis and would check (although this seems a bit weak) to see what he does, if he checks i'm check calling the river whatever card comes (unless he makes a crazy bet).If he bets half the pot or less this would make me very worried as it'd look like he wanted a call and with your stack you'd still have 20+bbs so i'd possibly fold in this spot if he overbets it he can probably have all my chips if he's got the goods and a wp to go with it

ugh, i dont like it, but i think its a c/f.

Opponent appears reasonable and will have position on us turn and river. Need more reads but can gather he's fairly tight. The range of hands he flats us with pre that then flats the flop can be narrowed down significantly. Doubt this guy guy is floating us here too often, board is relatively dry and not ideal for funky shit on later streets. The pairs he flatted with pre either have a set or are overpairs with the single exception of 88.

Of all the options available, c/f looks the best. Check/raising is spew, is it for value or are we bluffing him off 1010/JJ? Super-high variance (not that thats always a bad thing) but here i think we are crushed way more than we are ahead. He's rarely drawing on that board as we hold two nines.

b/f is OK but again its hard to see what he calls with pre and on the flop that doesnt have us completely crushed. I dont mind barreling a scare card on the turn, if an A or K pops its prolly fine to fire. But i think pissing away 65k with no plan for the river when he calls is horrid.

bet/calling is horrendous, as we will have to call a river shove and cannot be happy or think we are good hardly ever.

check/calling might be ok v a passive opponent that isnt going to hand-read you well, but v a good opponent its horrible as on the river he is gonna shove 100% of his range.

gr8 hand though Trigg, deffo one of the trickier and more marginal spots we get to look at.

Posted by: AlexMartin

I think a lot of these hands are difficult to answer without context and history as we know. Like I said before I will happily c-bet the nuts on the flop before checking the turn. Mainly to take advantage of this inclination for good players to shove 100% of their range on the river. With this history on show I doubt a good player shoves the river because if his oppo has shown before that a turn check doesn't necessarily mean weakness then a river shove would be crazy. I think if you have shown before that checking does mean you are ready to fold then don't be surprised if your oppo bets 100% of his range. I still can't discount A-K or 8-8, even a smaller pair here. I still think speed and size of oppo's turn bet needs consideration before we decide to fold though.

yeah, i do agree that it does depend a lot on oppos turn bet sizing and timing, but it is pretty damn hard for us to be infront. surely AK gets it in pre. Checking is most deffo the right way forward though, as the hands we are beating should just try to get to shodown cheaply. nice post mantis though.

Posted by: AlexMartin

action man raises to 20k pre from a stack of 256k and the tight ABC player who wants to get involved in this hand has 577k. These stacks are plenty big enough for a tight A-K to flat here with position. He might even pick up a squeeze from one of the later players, see what action man does before it gets back to him, then decide. If you add to this the fact that the only time this guy did raise action man, he quickly jammed all-in, flatting with A-K could be quite appealing for this guy. Calling action man's standard c-bet would be in keeping with his non-committal approach to the hand. Bad play I think, but quite possible. So if we're too keen to c-fold then his bad play suddenly becomes a pretty good float and I don't want that. Agreed that we are in a very foggy situation here though.

Very good PHA this one

2nd part coming up later

This.

I wonder if the cautious "our oppo could well have a set" mentality would be as strong if we substitute our 9-9 for A-A? If we had A-A and c-betted the same flop would our thoughts be orientated aroung check-folding the turn if our oppo called? I don't think they would and this bothers me. We are more focussed on sets because we reasonably assume big pairs raise pre (this player has shown he does this). The chances our oppo has a set are the same whether we have 9-9 or A-A and we lose the same amount. Do people c-fold their Aces in this same situation? If not how can we say c-folding nines is good because our oppo has a set? I appreciate he could have a bigger pair but I also appreciate he could have a smaller one. The % of chips he is putting in compared to his stack still suggests unpaired over-cards are quite possible.

i was really stuck on the turn, and think i made a bad bet because i didnt know where the hell i was in the hand.
Is it too weak c/folding turn? if we do this are we exploitable to regular floats?

PokerStars Game #18682585912: Tournament #94741694, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level XXI (4000/8000) - 2008/07/08 - 20:36:59 (ET)
Table '94741694 12' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: RiVeRs HoMe (658184 in chips)
Seat 2: ThEcLaiMEer (256265 in chips)
Seat 4: Lustcarr (577431 in chips)
Seat 7: Swansen (541583 in chips)
Seat 8: Mixclusive (165302 in chips)
Seat 9: ioalou (416780 in chips)
RiVeRs HoMe: posts the ante 800
ThEcLaiMEer: posts the ante 800
Lustcarr: posts the ante 800
Swansen: posts the ante 800
Mixclusive: posts the ante 800
ioalou: posts the ante 800
Mixclusive: posts small blind 4000
ioalou: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ThEcLaiMEer [9c 9d]
RiVeRs HoMe: folds
ThEcLaiMEer: raises 12250 to 20250
Lustcarr: calls 20250
Swansen: folds
Mixclusive: folds
ioalou: folds
*** FLOP *** [6d 7c 3h]
ThEcLaiMEer: bets 32000
Lustcarr: calls 32000
*** TURN *** [6d 7c 3h] [2s]
ThEcLaiMEer: bets 64000
Lustcarr: calls 64000
*** RIVER *** [6d 7c 3h 2s] [5s]

Valooo shove

My guess is you c/f though

Now we have arrived at the river I like the check suggestion on the turn even more. Why did we bet the turn again? We knew better hands probably wouldn't fold. So did we bet for value? If we did then of course pushing is going to maximize this value betting strat. But I wouldn't be pushing with any confidence in this situation. The problem is that we have half our starting stack in there and are not much closer to the truth with regard to our oppos hand. But the reason we have half our stack in there is because we put it in there by choice. And why did we do that?

The reason is this....

Posted by: mondatoo

Posted by: action man

A lot of players imo have this notion that if you check you are weak. Or a check and a fold should go hand in hand. Why? If you c-bet the nuts and then check the turn are you weak? Would you feel weak? I think if you have a rough idea of where you are in a hand and exercise your option to check then this shouldn't automatically make you feel weak. If you play poker with one set strat that means you c-bet always and then check when you are ready to give the hand up then you would feel like this. But if you mix your play about to keep your oppo guessing, sometimes bet, sometimes check, then you will be infinitely harder to read. If your oppo then connects your checks with certain weakness then he will be making a mistake, and this is what you want.

By betting on every street in order to not appear "weak" you have now inflated the pot to beyond the likelihood that you have the best hand. Your hand is not weak and had showdown value, but now because there is so much in the pot (because you put it there) a bluff is very likely if you check because the risk is very worthwhile. If you mix your play up you don't feel such an inclination to avoid checking and your oppo wont feel such an inclination to bet as an auto response to your check. Just to keep firing on this dry board has turned a genuine hand into a bluff. Nobody is value betting with confidence here. 8-9 just got there as did 5-5 so I don't know what we beat, but I'm sure it's going to cost you all your chips if you want to find out.

Good post Mr Mantis

in this hand or later?

tough  spot,

but what on earth where you hoping to achieve with the gayhe 1.5 bb raise in the first place?

I believe the gayhe raise was 2.5 bb, unless we are back to this I call youz and I raise youz business

sb 4k  bb  8k     raise( gayhe) 12 250  ?

only 2.5bbs if u add  a premium
wrong thread?