blonde poker forum

result of this is elsewhere on the forum...but its interesting

blonde player in the event at the weekend

10,000 starting..40 min clock

opponents unknown

first orbit, blinds 25-50

EP makes it 200

blonde makes it 600 with  Kc Kh

LP flat calls 600

EP makes it 2400

blonde flats

LP flats

flop  Ad Kc Qs

EP pushes in


thoughts on play pre-flop, the decision now and alternatives please

Thanks for posting this tighty.With only a 1/4 of my stack committed here i would seriously condsider folding here.The reason i'd fold is i just don't think he could have any other hand here than aces,would he seriously 4bet it with ak/aq or even qq this early on in the tourney.Also imo i don't like how the guy who pushes plays this at all if he does have aces i don't see why he'd make that play with the nuts(i say nuts as surely nobody could still be in the hand with j10) and i would have probably bet it but not as much.

there isnt any chance of me folding this on the flop. If u thought he could have AA pre then you should fold then, not wait til he hits a set ( and you do) and then fold. Instacall, you'll always have a great story to tell the grandkids if he turns over AA.

What hand are you putting him on to make ths play though celtic.I'm not sure i would fold pre (cause i'm not good enough lol) but i do think i can fold here with all my chips at risk so early on.I would possibly re min raise pre if he calls i no he has aces and i ain't putting anymore in unless i hit my trips (without an ace on the board ;).Would nobody else consider a rr pre flat calling seems not the best way to play with this structure imo if board comes low you're not getting away from it this way you lose 4k or you dbl up.

No history..

Possible AK

or maybe qq.

I am not folding.

200 raise in early, hmm, stinks of jj qq AK. but then that is why i am crap online recently

ldo u cant fold top pair never mind a set lol

Post flop its going in..AA,AK,QQ the range of EP

Pre-flop action probably takes QQ out.

Pre flop its slightly more debateable than post I think.

I'm going broke 100% of the time here.

I also like AA players shove on the flop here. PF action suggests at least 1 opponent has KK, AK, AQ and it's likely these holdings stack off here

what all the above say really. been trying to type it for 10 mins but basically he could have ak, aq, QQ and i just cant find a fold on the flop.

As for pre-flop i would rather fold than call the extra 1800 and be faced with a decision on a 10 high flop where i felt i could be behind anyway. hope that makes sense.

How much do you think he should raise to with AA ?

Although we no nothing of any opps as of yet do we really give him a 4bet range of ak/aq/qq so early on a just don't see him doing this with those hands.

As i said i don't think i'm folding pre but i don't like flat calling it either.

Is there really a need to get involved as it's played out?  Someone's raised 12xBB then a reraise to 2400? It's only 25/50 - surely one of them has to have aces, I can't see any other reason for it to play out like that preflop during the first level.  Even if you are leading, it's not worth the risk, if the guys are willing to get it in this early without aces, then they'll give you their chips later on in better spots.

That said, as it's been played, I would have called preflop and gone busto on the flop, I probably wouldn't have gotten away from it either. I'd like to think I'd have thought like above, but I think that I'd have gone here too.

200 is fine imo.

one of those 2 people is our hero

Oops, my bad.  There's still a caller of the 12xBB and then a reraise, that's a big commitment.

the cold caller of the 600, and then the 2400 (which is itself called) had JJ!!!

I think he plays this worst of the lot!

yeah but we can't put one of them on AA. it's in their range but putting someone on a single hand is pretty poor and v scared play, even more so with no info.

and the sickest part of the hand is when he sees the 10 hit the board

I think he played it fine +ev move to get a chipset

He should've called the all ins imo  ;)

Seriously though yeah he played it bad surely every1 is folding this pre flop

JJ has to call the 2 all-ins IMO, he has a gutshot to treble up in the first level. Folding there is bad poker.

Hey, that's good, I'm not a bad player cos I'd have gone bust here too :D

I'm not saying it's great to be folding here, but I wonder why during the first level of any tournament no matter how great the structure, someone is always going to be getting it all in.  Later in the tournament I don't have issue with, but at this stage, you are either massively ahead or miles behind.  Winning this hand isn't going to win you the tournament, losing it will cost you it.

I probably go broke preflop against an unknown. It isn't quite as clear cut as aa vs kk situation where you should go broke every time, as we are 200bbs deep and ep raise sizing are pretty good imo, therefore probably knows what they are doing. Too many people end up doing this with ak and qq for it not to +ev.

I felt the flop everytime as played, ak and qq are still very much still in eps range imo. The call preflop is fine imo as a trap, but not as a "god damn i don't what to do here, maybe i can pass the flop" move.

you can never ever ever fold this flop imo

+1

+2

and never folding pre either.

I can't fold this on the flop, but I could if it was all-in pre.

I don't know how you can call the re-raise pre-flop and then fold on the flop. If you folded the flop it would make the pre-flop call nonsensical. You could push pre-flop if you wanted but you called to see the flop. Now that you have made that choice what sort of flop were you hoping to see? The only realistic way out of the hand is a plain A high flop. If the flop comes low and raggy how could you fold then? If you fold then why did you call the re-raise pre-flop? You are surely committed. But with this flop you've actually improved. If there was any doubt the push from ep widens his range to include lots of hands you beat. Like Longy says A-K and QQ are just as possible as A-A. No way I fold here. 

If there's a conundrum in the OP I cant see it!!

Play pre-flop was the question really

forget post flop, its going in universally of course

+1

Many many players would be tempted to slow play their set of Aces here.

Looking at the bets alone, with no info, he could be a mug overvaluing a pair of 9's but we just don't know this player yet.

so and I am assuming this is a live game, what other info is on offer preflop?

was the re raise from EP a snap raise?

Any physical tells? 

has there been any change in behaviour?

surely there must be more info that just the bets available.

+3

Does EP even have a hand?
I have seen it a few times where people like to get it in on the first orbit just to send a message.

It was an APAT event - the chances of this happening are zero...

Ok, considering the preflop action it can only be AA, interesting play on the flop.
I guess he knew at least one of the opponents would have an almost impossible to fold under set

There are morons that 3 - 4 bet AK - AQ,  Gladly I am not in this group, could this chap be in this category?

when is the conundrum going to be posted?

After countdown.

Is Carol coming to tell us the answer?  ;kev;

(http://content.funnyhumor.com/pictures/countdown.jpg)

Lol - absolute quality

Ok nobody except me is thinking of folding here, i wish i'd not knowing the outcome however,i've answered honestly how i see it.

I don't understand why if we don't put him on aces then why aren't we re-raising pre with KK we could rr to around 5k if he calls do we not then get our answer and half our stack left why flat call it and then "see what happens".I personally don't think i'm going busto 1st orbit at 25/50 with 10k starting stack and such a good structure with KK

then you're never going to get full value from your KK either on all the other occasions when you're ahead as you're playing scared with it just because it's early in the comp.

So you've just started and have no info on anyone but you want to see a flop were his range is aa/kk/ak/aq/qq(questionable).If you rr as i'm suggesting and he calls what is his range know? If he folds we rake in decent pot an str8 away have increased our stack by nearly a 3rd.If this was half an hour to an hour in this would be totally different situation imo but it's not it's like the 3rd hand or summit.Maybe i'm wrong but most seem to feel the optimal play is flat calling pre and then on a low board all the chips are going in i just don't see how this is the correct play to make?

yes please. we are a long way ahead of that range, about a 2/1 fave. by folding you're narrowing his range to a single hand which is v v weak without a real good tell like him having seethrough cards or something.

If we re-raise we still end up playing against the only hand that has us crushed pre but our oppo may lay down some hands that we have crushed

so its went 200-600-call the 600 re raise to 2400, if u re raise here again ur aswell turning ur hand face up and makeing aq ak fold , you want max value out this hand

i guess that its your hand. can i ask why were u calling the 4bet pf? was it b/c 1) you read ep raiser for AA and wanted to set mine or 2)was it to trap and open up is range to stacking him on a low flop Vs his QQ JJ or even TT? or 3)other?

my thoughts to 3 situations

1) i think in level 1 of this tourny u cant set mine for 2.4k with 10k effective, its just not profitable. if the flop comes 8 high and he pushes flop what would be your play? ur effectively only losing to AA, so i prefer a fold pf than to set mine fold. (btw if this is ur play pf you can sort of argue a fold on the flop as u put him on aces so u effectively missed ur set, but in that case i think ur play PF is poor and -ev overall)
2) if ur plan pf is to trap with KK (not a horrible idea) then u have no decision at all on the flop. u still lose to AA so u were going broke regardless. i play the hand like this sometimes.
3) u tell me....

gee

It wasn't my hand m8 just i asked tighty the blonde who it was to post it and tighty done it for me as he was offline.

I would agree set mining would be a bad play here i am not keen as i've said on the flat call pre... i think i've said all i can on my thoughts on this hand.I'm suprised i'm one of the only people suggesting we can get away from this.

i could pass pf, i could pass on a Axx flop, but if i call with kk then i am going broke on a low flop. this is essentially a low flop as u still on really losing to aces

just to add to my short post , the reason im flatting his 2.4k bet is to trap him the only flop thats gonna scare me is axx , the amount of times i see players making this 2.4k bet with ak aq jj qq even 1010! is a wayyy higher percentage then them having aa , even more so cos of the overcaller , with that flop or even an 8 high flop its the same thing ur going broke if he has aces but thats a chance im willing to take even if its the first hand

I think e1 is folding on a Axx flop tbh.

+1

FYP

This is a low stakes game with a ridic structure, most of the people playing will never have played before in this structure, add to this they are below average standard i can't see how you can narrow them to AA.

I've seen people flip over JJ in this spot in events where the juice is more than the buyin of this comp

There is no juice

The "ridic" structure is most appreciated by the recreational players who never get to play deep stack live games in casinos for that money, and with added value

The standard: your comment is subjective. I beg to differ, sure there are some learners but there are plenty of v good players too

I never said there was juice, i meant ridic as in redic deep rather than just bad.

Judging my the number of APAT hand posts that used to get stuck up on here after the events i am going to stick to my guns and say the standard is awful.

what was the result of this hand anyway i take it the guy did have aces?

yes mate

w/e the standard the hand analysis should not start on the flop. its a PF decision. once u have called PF then IMO its busto time on that board.

yeah deffo thats what i was saying to you last night, too many times the people i play e.g ur standard casino player have hands that i crush so i dont see any need to re raise his 2.4k bet and let hi pass aq ak jj type hands, just wondered what the outcome was if he did have aces