blonde poker forum

This one caused quite a frenzy at the £25 triple chance at Alea last night...

It's the last hand before the break, and I am dealing. The hand played as follows:

100/200
3 limpers
I limp in CO with KdJd
SB complets
BB checks

Pot: 1200

Flop: 429 (no flushes in this thread)

All check

Turn: J

SB/BB check
MP bets 400
Limpers fold
I call
SB raises to 1600
BB folds
MP calls
I call

Pot: 6000

River: 9

SB checks
MP bets 800
I call
SB calls

Pot: 8400

MP mucks, having missed his draw
I table KJ
SB tables J2 and announces 2 pair

I fail to read that I have 2 pair with a K kicker and give him the pot. I then turn both sets of hands face down, along with the flop and put it in the muck. The burn cards/flop are left where they are and we go on break.

A couple of minutes later the light bulb clicks in my head and I go "hang on a minute...".

I inform the TD of what has happened and if anything can be done. As the next hand has not yet started he says we can reconstruct the hand. I am able to perfectly remember the action above, and the pot total is confirmed by a seperate stack of chips that has not yet been sorted in the villian's stack.

The interesting part... there was no camera covering this table. And as it was the last hand before the break most players had left the table. Myself, the other player in the pot, and a third player at the table confirmed my hand. However, the villian would not, saying he didn't see my hand, only that he announced 2 pair and was awarded the pot.

What would you do?

In the muck - hand dead - no discussion.

If you don't realise your mistake (and it was your mistake - you were dealing) straight away, then it's gone.

Considering it was you who messed up, trying to get the TD to award you the pot afterwards is a bit whiney.

You made a mistake, it cost you 8400 chips, you'll learn to read a board better in future. We've all done it at one point when we start playing live - suck it up and move on.

far too late, you have no claim on the pot here.

made worse by you being the dealer as you should have been checking that the pot went to the correct player

agree with above,hand dead

yes its too late to do anything


and ffs stop being so passive

A couple of points. Firstly, I tabled my cards face up. From RRoP:

2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)

Secondly:

5. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.

6. If a pot has been incorrectly awarded and mingled with chips that were not in the pot, and the time limit for a ruling request given in the previous rule has been observed, management may determine how much was in the pot by reconstructing the betting, and then transfer that amount to the proper player.


Obviously I was a bit of an idiot for not not reading the hand properly... but there are provisions in the rules to fix mistakes such as this. The fact it was the last hand before the break means we have obviously not yet started the next deal.

If you're going to quote Robert's Rules 2, 5 and 6 I suggest you also keep in no. 3 which affect any ruling

3. The proper time to draw attention to a mistake is when it occurs or is first noticed. Any delay may affect the ruling.

the fact that you were the dealer and thus responsible for awarding the pot combined with the fact that you happily went on a break for couple of minutes after the award should imo lead to you losing this pot

it's also interesting to note that this hand has been posted on another forum by the TD and while you claim that 2 other players backed you up the TD says that only 1 other confirmed your hand and makes no mention of most players having left the table

Well, the rule states that it's before the next deal. I think 1 or 2 minutes (literally was all it was) is a reasonable amount of time.

Had there been a camera on the table I am confident I would of awarded the pot as dave made every effort to fix what had happened, something I really appreciate.

The issue was confirming the hands, and whether 2 people siding with me was enough. (again, not something I want to argue over, but i'm 99% confident it was 2 people, if dave thought it was 1 then fair enough, 10 people surrounding the table all voicing their opinion at the same time wouldn't have made life easy for him - but whether it's 1 or 2 players probably doesn't make a great deal of difference)

Don't get me wrong, I know it was a silly mistake for me to make, but that's why the rules are there to cover it. The decision was to not change anything because dave felt he couldn't adequetly confirm the hands. In my defence, I didn't make a fuss once the ruling had been made and just got on with the game. Thankfully, I didn't get rattled by it and managed to make a recovery from my now crippled stack. I posted this thread on here just to see what other people's opinions on the matter were, and their reasons for said opinons.

on a slight tangent cf I'd be interested to how you'd feel in a slightlly different situation.

tourney goes on a 2 hour dinner break and just before you come back you realise what happened. it's still before the next deal so would you still feel the same way or would you consider it a different situation because of the time involved?

would be interesting if your oppo had been all in and someone had to tell him that he was out 2 hours ago when he thought he'd doubled up

I think the issue here comes down to confirming the cards.

The rules state that the hand can be reviewed providing the next deal has not yet taken place. The reasons it being needed to be done before the next deal are obvious.

In the 2 hour example then I would think that if there is camera footage then the pot should be awarded to the correct player. In the case of the allin player then yes, it would suck to be him, but it should never have been his pot in the first place.

Without camera footage I would think it impossible to redo the hand, as after 2 hours people will most likely not remember the action accurately enough.

if a cards in the muck its dead in my eyes. it really is that simple.
as for camera footage lol

Sorry but you deserve to have lost the pot due to how badly you played it, regardless of the rules.

This has to be a wind up? You can't really be serious?

1. Cards are in the muck - end of.

2. It is your responsibility to ensure you know what you are doing as a player. In any game if you were dealt the wrong number of cards for example it is your responsibility to point it out. You mucked your cards, the hand is dead. As Andrew T said - we've all done it and it's horrible when you reaslise what's happened but move on. Learn from it. 

Errr hand was tabled - end of.

I can't see any reason why you shouldnt be awarded this pot, you tabled the best hand other players saw it and no further action has taken place.

because they've gone on a break and according to TD only  1 other player saw cf table kj. how does he know that cf hasn't gone outside and got his mate to agree to a story? not in any way suggesting that that happened but there's no way the td can know otherwise.

yes the cards were left on the table but they're easy enough to switch around when cf is the dealer

Was it not the case he hadn't left the room?

no

I don't think you should use your energy to make a fuss about the pot. We know poker rules are pretty vague and situational, and a good case can be made for both sides here. Use your energy to make a fuss about not knowing how to read a board properly. Not knowing where you're at in a hand is bad and will cost you a lot more in the future than 1 pot that's already gone. The pot lost is your schooling fee. It was a mistake, fair enough. Don't make them!

I had not left the card room.

The interesting thing here, is that a few people on this board, and a lot of people at the casino took the train of thought: "hand was mucked, that's the end of it", even if there was footage/proof of the hand. I don't understand this. Obviously, in this case the testimony of 1/2 players was not enough, which I accept. But it was the thought that even if something could be done, it shouldn't be, that interested me.

To OP Your initial post didn't make it clear whether you're hand was tabled or not and wasn't clear about the time difference.  If it was directly after the hand and all that was required was that your tabled hand was turned up again, you might have a point.

His post did actually make it clear what happened.


He tabled his hand, his opponent tabled his hand, OP awarded the pot to his opponent, OP turned both hands face down and mucked them both.

There really can be no comeback here unless the opponent agrees he was wrongly awarded the pot.


Game over.

so that's what all the fuss was about then. Wondered what folk were going on about, during and after the break.

fwiw i think you have no entitlement to the pot but i am by no means a rules guru

Surely the hands dead as they were folded face down- too much of a chance for players to angleshoot otherwise

Well no. It was specifically tabled face up.

To all those who say it was dead... taking into account the fact that no hand had taken place after this one, assume there was a camera over the table which caught the hand, what do you think should be done then. And why?

Err once a hand is tabled it can't be mucked, that is the whole point of tabling a hand! If there is an error then it can be corrected up to the next hand.

But how can the hand be verified?

It was a self-deal game, there's no confirmation OP had the winning hand (he says 2 players say he had KJ, whereas on another forum the TD says only 1 player agreed with him).

The cards are now in the muck - the OP can't starts pulling cards out in the hope he managed to get a King and a Jack.

I really see no way in which a reversal of this pot doesn't open up a whole world of cheating ('Mate, say I had KJ that last hand and I'll see you right').


That's a different situation isn't it? If the hand can be independently verified, then there's scope for correction. There's no independent verification in your case.

Do you whine this much about every bad beat you inflict upon yourself?

Hand is tabled it speaks. If the pot is wrongly awarded to the non winning hand then it can be corrected before the next hand takes place. The dealer should be able to confirm the hands (kind of biased opinion seeing as the dealer was involved in the pot but sure others on the table could confirm the hands).

Guy who is trying to keep the pot when he knows he is beat is an angle shooter- a mistake was made so give the guy the pot, end of story.

Surely if any of the other players were paying attention to the cards as they were tabled at least one of them would say "err isn't the KJ the winning hand".

The OP himself shipped the pot to the other player, he made the mistake and should live with the consequences.

mistakes happen but they can be rectified before the next hand is played. If a hand is tabled it cannot then be mucked and declared dead and cards speak. Yes the other players on the table shouldve spotted it and I have indeed pointed errors out on many occasions (even ones where I have been awarded pots incorrectly).

imo the opponent in the hand knew what he was doing when he declared 2 pair and knew a mistake had been made. For him to try and then keep the pot once the error has been highlighted means he's an angle shooter.

Ariston do you not see how having the game rechecked is open to angle shooting?? the cards are put face down into the muck so it is impossible to determine what exact cards were out. The fact that the player dealt himself also leaves it open to suspicion. I agree if it had been video'd or even if a different dealer had been on the table and could remember accurately what cards were out then it would be a different matter.

players at the table will confirm what hand he had. His opponent is clever enough to declare 2 pair so dont tell me he didnt see the dealers cards. Anyone who is low enough to try and take a pot they didnt win deserves the poker gods to stick it to them whenever they get chance- karma is a bitch.

If other players on the table cannot confirm the hands (ie nobody can say for certain he had or had not tabled KJ) then the pot should stay with the other player. At the end of the day its a self deal comp and if the player is good enough to deal he should be allowed a little leeway for making a mistake instead of having the piss taken of him by someone angle shooting. Next time you are at a self deal comp take a look at how many players are keen to deal- not bloody many.

right well its a self deal £25 competition...how do you KNOW for certain the guy is angle shooting?? he could quite easily be a newbie- I know when I 1st started playing poker when my 2 pair was counterfeited it took me a minute or 2 to work out why I had lost the pot.

maybe this is not the case but Its the matter of uncertainty which is why I think the hand should be dead-there is less grey area if you say the hand is mucked therefore dead! I know it was tabled 1st but In my book putting the hands into the muck and conceding the pot at the same time means the hand is over- its forfeited!!

which is many peoples opinion even though the rules state that if a hand is tabled it speaks. It cannot be classed as dead if accidentaly mucked. If this happens the mistake has to be pointed out before the next hand is dealt which has happened in this scenario.

simple fact - HAND WAS TABLED SO IT SPEAKS AND IS NOT DEAD EVEN IF IT WAS MUCKED IN ERROR. now you made me get all shouty but that should be the end of it according to the rules.

yes this part is correct and tbh I'm amazed that so many people think that a hand tabled at showdown can be mucked.

however that is not the point in this situation. the point is that the dealer has awarded the pot to another player, the tournament has then gone on a break, players have left the table and 2 minutes later the dealer has claimed the winning hand which only 1 player at the table has backed him up on.

it would be so easy for the dealer and a friend to work a fiddle here, there is no way the TD can be confident about what happened so he has to go with the original award made by the dealer. it would be different if everyone at the table remembered the tabled hand but if that was the case one of them probably would've noticed the mistake to start with.

Ariston, how would you rule if no-one backed up the dealer? would you still say that the hand was tabled so the dealer wins even though no-one saw it? that's not far removed from the situation where all the players leave the table and then he comes back with one witness.

This is a little unfair.

Obviously once I realised the mistake I made an effort to get myself the pot, as it is something the rules allow me to do. When in the end I did not get the pot I accepted the ruling, didn't make a fuss about it, and got on with the game.

I think people are assuming I'm posting this because I don't agree with the ruling. This is not the case - I actually agree with it. I posted the thread to see other people's views on the matter.

You're right, it was a bit unfair, sorry about that.

It was just a reaction to the fact that the tone of your posts was actually suggesting the opposite of what you state here - that you disagreed with the ruling and were looking for people to back you up for making a mistake.

Any challenging I've done in this post was against people saying "hands were mucked, nothing can be done", as this is wrong. Now obviously, as there was no footage the hand couldn't be properly verified, but this is a different matter. I was challenging the people who thought that even if something could be done about it, it shouldn't be, as the hands had been thrown in the muck.

Roberts Rules
Decision Making
1/ Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.
5/ A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts. The next deal starts with the first riffle.

WSOP Rules
A dealer cannot kill a winning hand that was turned face up.
Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision making process. Uncommon circumstances can on occasion dictate that the technical explanation of the rules be ignored.

Last word!
If i could have been 100% certain on both players cards and what the board cards were i would have awarded the pot to you Charles. Because other players didnt see the hand or didnt want to get involved i felt i had to let the other player keep the pot.

Steady on Sir - we don't want "balance"......

Nice Post bud. Sums it up, really, & kills the thread, too!

Yeah, this thread is as dead as the hand the TD was asked to rule on... ;scarymoment;

Having tabled your hand, your hand cannot be declared "dead." That means, in usual circumstances, the error would be rectified and the pot sent your way. The problem occurs when you all leave for a break and upon realizing your mistake, no one is prepared to verify your cards and the situation becomes his word against mine and the TD can't be faulted for taking the stance that he took. It's one of those things you ought to always be certain about before sending a pot to another player.