ruling

[Cf]

This one caused quite a frenzy at the £25 triple chance at Alea last night...

It's the last hand before the break, and I am dealing. The hand played as follows:

100/200
3 limpers
I limp in CO with KdJd
SB complets
BB checks

Pot: 1200

Flop: 429 (no flushes in this thread)

All check

Turn: J

SB/BB check
MP bets 400
Limpers fold
I call
SB raises to 1600
BB folds
MP calls
I call

Pot: 6000

River: 9

SB checks
MP bets 800
I call
SB calls

Pot: 8400

MP mucks, having missed his draw
I table KJ
SB tables J2 and announces 2 pair

I fail to read that I have 2 pair with a K kicker and give him the pot. I then turn both sets of hands face down, along with the flop and put it in the muck. The burn cards/flop are left where they are and we go on break.

A couple of minutes later the light bulb clicks in my head and I go "hang on a minute...".

I inform the TD of what has happened and if anything can be done. As the next hand has not yet started he says we can reconstruct the hand. I am able to perfectly remember the action above, and the pot total is confirmed by a seperate stack of chips that has not yet been sorted in the villian's stack.

The interesting part... there was no camera covering this table. And as it was the last hand before the break most players had left the table. Myself, the other player in the pot, and a third player at the table confirmed my hand. However, the villian would not, saying he didn't see my hand, only that he announced 2 pair and was awarded the pot.

What would you do?

[Dingdell]

In the muck - hand dead - no discussion.

[AndrewT]

If you don't realise your mistake (and it was your mistake - you were dealing) straight away, then it's gone.

Considering it was you who messed up, trying to get the TD to award you the pot afterwards is a bit whiney.

You made a mistake, it cost you 8400 chips, you'll learn to read a board better in future. We've all done it at one point when we start playing live - suck it up and move on.

[gatso]

far too late, you have no claim on the pot here.

made worse by you being the dealer as you should have been checking that the pot went to the correct player

[pokerfan]

agree with above,hand dead

[doubleup]

yes its too late to do anything


and ffs stop being so passive

[Cf]

A couple of points. Firstly, I tabled my cards face up. From RRoP:

2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)

Secondly:

5. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.

6. If a pot has been incorrectly awarded and mingled with chips that were not in the pot, and the time limit for a ruling request given in the previous rule has been observed, management may determine how much was in the pot by reconstructing the betting, and then transfer that amount to the proper player.


Obviously I was a bit of an idiot for not not reading the hand properly... but there are provisions in the rules to fix mistakes such as this. The fact it was the last hand before the break means we have obviously not yet started the next deal.

[gatso]

If you're going to quote Robert's Rules 2, 5 and 6 I suggest you also keep in no. 3 which affect any ruling

3. The proper time to draw attention to a mistake is when it occurs or is first noticed. Any delay may affect the ruling.

the fact that you were the dealer and thus responsible for awarding the pot combined with the fact that you happily went on a break for couple of minutes after the award should imo lead to you losing this pot

it's also interesting to note that this hand has been posted on another forum by the TD and while you claim that 2 other players backed you up the TD says that only 1 other confirmed your hand and makes no mention of most players having left the table

[Cf]

If you're going to quote Robert's Rules 2, 5 and 6 I suggest you also keep in no. 3 which affect any ruling

3. The proper time to draw attention to a mistake is when it occurs or is first noticed. Any delay may affect the ruling.

the fact that you were the dealer and thus responsible for awarding the pot combined with the fact that you happily went on a break for couple of minutes after the award should imo lead to you losing this pot

it's also interesting to note that this hand has been posted on another forum by the TD and while you claim that 2 other players backed you up the TD says that only 1 other confirmed your hand and makes no mention of most players having left the table

Well, the rule states that it's before the next deal. I think 1 or 2 minutes (literally was all it was) is a reasonable amount of time.

Had there been a camera on the table I am confident I would of awarded the pot as dave made every effort to fix what had happened, something I really appreciate.

The issue was confirming the hands, and whether 2 people siding with me was enough. (again, not something I want to argue over, but i'm 99% confident it was 2 people, if dave thought it was 1 then fair enough, 10 people surrounding the table all voicing their opinion at the same time wouldn't have made life easy for him - but whether it's 1 or 2 players probably doesn't make a great deal of difference)

Don't get me wrong, I know it was a silly mistake for me to make, but that's why the rules are there to cover it. The decision was to not change anything because dave felt he couldn't adequetly confirm the hands. In my defence, I didn't make a fuss once the ruling had been made and just got on with the game. Thankfully, I didn't get rattled by it and managed to make a recovery from my now crippled stack. I posted this thread on here just to see what other people's opinions on the matter were, and their reasons for said opinons.

[gatso]

Well, the rule states that it's before the next deal. I think 1 or 2 minutes (literally was all it was) is a reasonable amount of time.

on a slight tangent cf I'd be interested to how you'd feel in a slightlly different situation.

tourney goes on a 2 hour dinner break and just before you come back you realise what happened. it's still before the next deal so would you still feel the same way or would you consider it a different situation because of the time involved?

would be interesting if your oppo had been all in and someone had to tell him that he was out 2 hours ago when he thought he'd doubled up

[Cf]

I think the issue here comes down to confirming the cards.

The rules state that the hand can be reviewed providing the next deal has not yet taken place. The reasons it being needed to be done before the next deal are obvious.

In the 2 hour example then I would think that if there is camera footage then the pot should be awarded to the correct player. In the case of the allin player then yes, it would suck to be him, but it should never have been his pot in the first place.

Without camera footage I would think it impossible to redo the hand, as after 2 hours people will most likely not remember the action accurately enough.

[pokerfan]

if a cards in the muck its dead in my eyes. it really is that simple.
as for camera footage lol

[Grier78]

Sorry but you deserve to have lost the pot due to how badly you played it, regardless of the rules.

[Dingdell]

I think the issue here comes down to confirming the cards.

The rules state that the hand can be reviewed providing the next deal has not yet taken place. The reasons it being needed to be done before the next deal are obvious.

In the 2 hour example then I would think that if there is camera footage then the pot should be awarded to the correct player. In the case of the allin player then yes, it would suck to be him, but it should never have been his pot in the first place.

Without camera footage I would think it impossible to redo the hand, as after 2 hours people will most likely not remember the action accurately enough.

This has to be a wind up? You can't really be serious?

1. Cards are in the muck - end of.

2. It is your responsibility to ensure you know what you are doing as a player. In any game if you were dealt the wrong number of cards for example it is your responsibility to point it out. You mucked your cards, the hand is dead. As Andrew T said - we've all done it and it's horrible when you reaslise what's happened but move on. Learn from it. 

[Royal Flush]

This has to be a wind up? You can't really be serious?

1. Cards are in the muck - end of.

Errr hand was tabled - end of.

I can't see any reason why you shouldnt be awarded this pot, you tabled the best hand other players saw it and no further action has taken place.