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Title: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: TEX FITZ on November 07, 2008, 02:45:29 AM hi guys, i was in a pub tourny last night and i think an unfair ruling was made against me during a hand. Chip counts/blinds don't really matter but it was between the 2 chip leaders, rob and me (he had me covered by about 1000 chips)
rob was introduced as new to the game but i later found out he regularly visits casinos to play. scenario :- pub tourny 10 players, 5 left. Play for points (small kitty between top 3) SB - rob BB - me all fold to rob, he makes up and i check FLOP - rob checks, i bet 1/2 pot, rob calls TURN - rob checks, i bet the pot, rob calls by now we both getting short stacked, but still enough to continue playing. RIVER - within a second rob throws his cards into the community cards face up, i see i'm beat (he paired the board with 2nd bottom pair on the turn)??? so i assume he's mucked and start gathering the pot then a voice pipes up "hang on it's tex to bet" so rob grabs his cards back from the middle and puts them back in front of him (no line on the table) i then say to the table that he played out of turn and threw his cards so i win. then the DEBATE started :- "he didn't say fold" "you can still bet" "you haven't showed to prove you won" rob stayed quiet throughout the DEBATE we call over the TD (pub landlord) and he says he 'thinks' he saw something like this in a casino and robs hand is live because it hadn't touched the mucked cards. rob then says "oh well i'll check" He has more chips than me, but being a bit peeved and thinking he wont call with 2nd bottom pair i go all in. amid comments of "he's bluffing" "you've got more than him" "you need points" etc, rob calls and i'm out. was that the correct ruling or were the short stacks trying to climb up the ladder. i'm over it now but i know if i used that tactic i would be severly frowned upon as me and missus usually take their money off them. It's not a big game but classic pub players - limp limp limp limp limp RAISE call call call call call your views/opinions would be greatly appreciated as i would like to know the exact ruling on this, i know rules differ but surely this must be a black/white situation Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: turny on November 07, 2008, 03:14:49 AM there are no black and white rules in poker unfortunately!
Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: Rookie (Rodney) on November 07, 2008, 03:16:34 AM tl;dr
Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: LeKnave on November 07, 2008, 04:19:15 AM tl;dr lol. and lol pub poker. the whole of pub poker is probably totally bent for the pub regs. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: Horneris on November 07, 2008, 04:55:46 AM Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: Karabiner on November 07, 2008, 08:58:22 AM Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: LeKnave on November 07, 2008, 08:59:54 AM lol, too long; didnt read. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: AndrewT on November 07, 2008, 09:31:44 AM we call over the TD (pub landlord) This is why pub poker is rubbish. The landlord is generally only interesting in stopping fights breaking out - apart from that he doesn't care what happens. When Rob threw his cards in you should have clarified what he had done - 'Have you folded Rob?' - before you start gathering in chips, rather than just assuming, to avoid exactly this type of situation. And bluffing into a sizeable pot isn't a great tactic in a game full of players like this. It's not a big game but classic pub players - limp limp limp limp limp RAISE call call call call call Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: AlexMartin on November 07, 2008, 09:49:04 AM his hand is exposed and mucked. its dead. but pub poker is terrible dude.
Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: EvilPie on November 07, 2008, 10:17:10 AM I would just like to say that not all pub poker is terrible.
Me and Stu run an event every Monday at our local and it's really good fun. We regularly get 25+ runners and have peaked at 36 so it makes for a decent little tourney. It is really well organised and there are never any disputes because we know the rules that we use and everybody knows that what we say goes. If this happened at our place the cards are dead as soon as they are thrown at the dealer so you win. There could be an argument if you'd checked first and he exposed face up that if they didn't actually hit the muck then it was a showdown. In your situation though you've been done over. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: StuartHopkin on November 07, 2008, 10:27:55 AM I would just like to say that not all pub poker is terrible. Me and Stu run an event every Monday at our local and it's really good fun. We regularly get 25+ runners and have peaked at 36 so it makes for a decent little tourney. It is really well organised and there are never any disputes because we know the rules that we use and everybody knows that what we say goes. If this happened at our place the cards are dead as soon as they are thrown at the dealer so you win. There could be an argument if you'd checked first and he exposed face up that if they didn't actually hit the muck then it was a showdown. In your situation though you've been done over. I disagree Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: EvilPie on November 07, 2008, 10:40:20 AM I would just like to say that not all pub poker is terrible. Me and Stu run an event every Monday at our local and it's really good fun. We regularly get 25+ runners and have peaked at 36 so it makes for a decent little tourney. It is really well organised and there are never any disputes because we know the rules that we use and everybody knows that what we say goes. If this happened at our place the cards are dead as soon as they are thrown at the dealer so you win. There could be an argument if you'd checked first and he exposed face up that if they didn't actually hit the muck then it was a showdown. In your situation though you've been done over. I disagree [ ] I care Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: ariston on November 07, 2008, 10:48:16 AM dont think its angle shooting its just standard dumb pub players.
ruling should be his hand is dead as he has chucked it face up exposing his cards when action is still to take place. The fact there is no line doesnt matter- he has clearly folded his hand by throwing it face up into the community cards. Having said that pub games tend to be friendly/non serious affairs where cards are often shown and comments are regularly made by players not in the pot so I wouldnt worry about it too much. If you want serious poker go to proper tournaments held at casinos/dtd wherever. If you want a giggle and a drink go to pub games. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: TEX FITZ on November 07, 2008, 11:38:01 AM thanks for response guys, even the constructive ones.
There was no heated debate, shouting, fists etc. i accepted it, got up and went to the bar. i'll remember THEIR rules in case i need to use them in my favour. i know what you mean about standard pub games, add on the fact me and GF intruded into their regular little game a while back. picture the scene - strangers walk through saloon doors, 2 seconds later you hear the proverbial pin drop. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: AlexMartin on November 07, 2008, 11:46:15 AM I would just like to say that not all pub poker is terrible. Me and Stu run an event every Monday at our local and it's really good fun. We regularly get 25+ runners and have peaked at 36 so it makes for a decent little tourney. It is really well organised and there are never any disputes because we know the rules that we use and everybody knows that what we say goes. If this happened at our place the cards are dead as soon as they are thrown at the dealer so you win. There could be an argument if you'd checked first and he exposed face up that if they didn't actually hit the muck then it was a showdown. In your situation though you've been done over. yeah, soz, didnt mean to tarnish all pub poker, just the ones iv been to have been dire. sounds like u run a decent one evil. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: StuartHopkin on November 07, 2008, 11:52:04 AM I would just like to say that not all pub poker is terrible. Me and Stu run an event every Monday at our local and it's really good fun. We regularly get 25+ runners and have peaked at 36 so it makes for a decent little tourney. It is really well organised and there are never any disputes because we know the rules that we use and everybody knows that what we say goes. If this happened at our place the cards are dead as soon as they are thrown at the dealer so you win. There could be an argument if you'd checked first and he exposed face up that if they didn't actually hit the muck then it was a showdown. In your situation though you've been done over. If your ever in Nottingham on a Monday night you should come along! We get more runners than Gala! 4k Stack 12 minute levels, dealers provided and even a laptop showing the clock, average and prizes etc. yeah, soz, didnt mean to tarnish all pub poker, just the ones iv been to have been dire. sounds like u run a decent one evil. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: AndrewT on November 07, 2008, 12:03:39 PM i'll remember THEIR rules in case i need to use them in my favour. Except next time, their rules might be different... Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: Cf on November 07, 2008, 12:31:57 PM Ok. Here's my spin on it:
- The act of exposing the cards doesn't mean the hand is dead (unless you specifically have a house rule saying this), but there should be a punishment after the hand for doing this. - The act of throwing the cards to the dealer shows a fold, but this is an out of turn action. His cards should be returned to him. He has however, acted out of turn and is bound to this action should you check to him - so do that. At it happens, by making an aggressive action you've given him the option of calling this bet. As for the people saying "he's bluffing" etc - this is way out of order, but at a pub game I doubt there's much you can do. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: RED-DOG on November 07, 2008, 12:42:01 PM Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: EvilPie on November 07, 2008, 12:52:32 PM I would just like to say that not all pub poker is terrible. Me and Stu run an event every Monday at our local and it's really good fun. We regularly get 25+ runners and have peaked at 36 so it makes for a decent little tourney. It is really well organised and there are never any disputes because we know the rules that we use and everybody knows that what we say goes. If this happened at our place the cards are dead as soon as they are thrown at the dealer so you win. There could be an argument if you'd checked first and he exposed face up that if they didn't actually hit the muck then it was a showdown. In your situation though you've been done over. yeah, soz, didnt mean to tarnish all pub poker, just the ones iv been to have been dire. sounds like u run a decent one evil. 4k Stack 12 minute levels, dealers provided and even a laptop showing the clock, average and prizes etc. FYP Your quoting skillz are on fire today mate. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: gatso on November 07, 2008, 02:07:42 PM Ok. Here's my spin on it: - The act of exposing the cards doesn't mean the hand is dead (unless you specifically have a house rule saying this), but there should be a punishment after the hand for doing this. - The act of throwing the cards to the dealer shows a fold, but this is an out of turn action. His cards should be returned to him. He has however, acted out of turn and is bound to this action should you check to him - so do that. At it happens, by making an aggressive action you've given him the option of calling this bet. As for the people saying "he's bluffing" etc - this is way out of order, but at a pub game I doubt there's much you can do. well fuck me, I actually agree with cf on a ruling. td got this spot on as the guy was not facing action then his cards should always be returned to him as long as they can be identified 100% and have not gone been mucked. putting them face up on the community cards meets these criteria. then we carry on with the hand before giving him a penalty afterwards I'm not happy with that ruling but I think it's the correct one, if someone can point me to the rule that says this is a pass then I'll happily change my mind Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: Cf on November 07, 2008, 02:21:42 PM Ok. Here's my spin on it: - The act of exposing the cards doesn't mean the hand is dead (unless you specifically have a house rule saying this), but there should be a punishment after the hand for doing this. - The act of throwing the cards to the dealer shows a fold, but this is an out of turn action. His cards should be returned to him. He has however, acted out of turn and is bound to this action should you check to him - so do that. At it happens, by making an aggressive action you've given him the option of calling this bet. As for the people saying "he's bluffing" etc - this is way out of order, but at a pub game I doubt there's much you can do. well fuck me, I actually agree with cf on a ruling. td got this spot on lol, I don't agree with my ruling because I've just reread the original post. The villian acted first here? "i then say to the table that he played out of turn" - This is what threw me. But it would appear the villian is SB, hero BB so the villian was acting first. If this is the case then he has folded, and it is your pot. Whether he said "fold" or not is irrelevent, the act of throwing your cards into the middle of the table is a fold. It is your pot, and you do not have to show your cards. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: EvilPie on November 07, 2008, 02:23:32 PM Ok. Here's my spin on it: - The act of exposing the cards doesn't mean the hand is dead (unless you specifically have a house rule saying this), but there should be a punishment after the hand for doing this. - The act of throwing the cards to the dealer shows a fold, but this is an out of turn action. His cards should be returned to him. He has however, acted out of turn and is bound to this action should you check to him - so do that. At it happens, by making an aggressive action you've given him the option of calling this bet. As for the people saying "he's bluffing" etc - this is way out of order, but at a pub game I doubt there's much you can do. well fuck me, I actually agree with cf on a ruling. td got this spot on as the guy was not facing action then his cards should always be returned to him as long as they can be identified 100% and have not gone been mucked. putting them face up on the community cards meets these criteria. then we carry on with the hand before giving him a penalty afterwards I'm not happy with that ruling but I think it's the correct one, if someone can point me to the rule that says this is a pass then I'll happily change my mind Isn't there a rule about it being in the interests of fairness? It's not like the guy accidently mucked his cards thinking that the other guy had bet and it was his turn. He threw them towards the muck face up which to me is a clear fold. As soon as they were pushed towards the dealer he should scoop them up and put them in the muck thus killing them off completely. He clearly intended to fold so I think it should stand. In the interests of fairness obviously. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: gatso on November 07, 2008, 02:27:50 PM Ok. Here's my spin on it: - The act of exposing the cards doesn't mean the hand is dead (unless you specifically have a house rule saying this), but there should be a punishment after the hand for doing this. - The act of throwing the cards to the dealer shows a fold, but this is an out of turn action. His cards should be returned to him. He has however, acted out of turn and is bound to this action should you check to him - so do that. At it happens, by making an aggressive action you've given him the option of calling this bet. As for the people saying "he's bluffing" etc - this is way out of order, but at a pub game I doubt there's much you can do. well fuck me, I actually agree with cf on a ruling. td got this spot on lol, I don't agree with my ruling because I've just reread the original post. The villian acted first here? "i then say to the table that he played out of turn" - This is what threw me. But it would appear the villian is SB, hero BB so the villian was acting first. If this is the case then he has folded, and it is your pot. Whether he said "fold" or not is irrelevent, the act of throwing your cards into the middle of the table is a fold. It is your pot, and you do not have to show your cards. lolz, I did exactly the same, as I would imagine did the td. so I still agree with you cf, clear fold now I unserstand the situation. sorry tex but you cost yourself the pot by not understanding who acts first in a pot Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: gatso on November 07, 2008, 04:03:34 PM Isn't there a rule about it being in the interests of fairness? It's not like the guy accidently mucked his cards thinking that the other guy had bet and it was his turn. He threw them towards the muck face up which to me is a clear fold. As soon as they were pushed towards the dealer he should scoop them up and put them in the muck thus killing them off completely. He clearly intended to fold so I think it should stand. In the interests of fairness obviously. matt, not relevant to this particular situation as I'd misunderstood it due to what op said to the td but in general a player going to pass oop by throwing in their cards does not necessarily constitute a pass. the easiest example to illustrate this is a player in the bb; how many times have you seen a bb push their cards forward with the intention of passing only to have theim pushed back by the dealer and informed that they have the option to check? they clearly intend to fold yet in pretty much every cardroom anywhere they will not be held to it. same is often true with open folding on a later street, the dealer's like that little box that pops up online to protect you and let you know that checking is free Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: TEX FITZ on November 07, 2008, 06:05:21 PM i have somehow mislead the issue, rob did not act out of turn (he was SB) but all other actions were as i stated, sorry for any confusion
Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: gatso on November 07, 2008, 06:11:10 PM i have somehow mislead the issue, rob did not act out of turn (he was SB) but all other actions were as i stated, sorry for any confusion yeah, figured that out eventually. the problem is that once this happened... i then say to the table that he played out of turn and threw his cards so i win. then the DEBATE started :- ...you've put it into people's heads that he did act oot, as demonstrated by this thread, and it's not surprising that the ruling went the way it did Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: tikay on November 07, 2008, 06:15:08 PM ..and this tickled me......
"....lol, I don't agree with my ruling..." Especially after Gatso said he agreed with him for the first time! I have a headache now. Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: Cf on November 08, 2008, 02:26:44 AM ..and this tickled me...... "....lol, I don't agree with my ruling..." Especially after Gatso said he agreed with him for the first time! I have a headache now. You're not the only one :) Title: Re: is this angle shooting, correct ruling or victimization ? Post by: MANTIS01 on November 08, 2008, 06:39:04 PM The guy's hand isn't dead and it isn't in the muck, it's just exposed. He can't make action now but can call or fold if you bet. I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist about this. What a good advantage for you. You can now use that advantage to play your hand out whatever way you want. Either push and get him to fold or check and allow the best hand to win. Claiming the pot on a technicality because you can't win it otherwise lacks class imo.
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