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Title: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: Moskvich on November 11, 2008, 12:46:01 PM 1/2 FR, though I don't think the fact that it's FR is very relevant here.
HJ raises to 8, I flat on the button with JJ. Both blinds call. Flop 862 no suits. SB leads out for 18, BB calls, HJ folds. SB has about 220 back, as do I. BB has about 100 back. I make it 62. SB seems pretty solid and I think is likely to have a set a lot here if he continues... so I'm not really planning to put any more in the pot here vs him. If he passes here then against the shorter BB I'm obviously happy to get it in now or on turn. Is this a legitimate line..? I guess I'm kind of 'raising for information' but I don't really know what else to do - don't feel I can just pass, don't feel I can flat as I've no idea what I want the turn to be and am likely to be facing a chunky bet with the pot at 80-odd. The actual pot as played has a pretty absurd ending, but it's the flop play I'd like views on, cheers. Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: jakally on November 11, 2008, 01:55:42 PM I know you want views on flop play but I reraise pre (although I never play FR - not sure if that makes a difference). If you flat jacks to a LP raise then your RR range is too narow. As played on flop I think your line is fine to this point. Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: Moskvich on November 11, 2008, 02:11:37 PM I know you want views on flop play but I reraise pre (although I never play FR - not sure if that makes a difference). If you flat jacks to a LP raise then your RR range is too narow. As played on flop I think your line is fine to this point. Re the reraise - yeah I think it probably does make a difference that it's FR - I would reraise JJ sometimes here, but the problem with it can be that, since a typical perception of a reraising range is that it's QQ+/AK, I'd almost be turning it into a bluff against some opponents. My reraising range in this spot is obviously wider than QQ+/AK, but I'm not sure that hands like JJ/TT are necessarily the next best hands to include. When you say 'up to this point', do you mean it's fine to effectively be raise/folding here versus the SB? Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: byronkincaid on November 11, 2008, 02:51:19 PM no stats?
i call Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: AlexMartin on November 11, 2008, 02:51:55 PM i like the line, but i think your flop raise freezes out all worse hands. make it smaller. if sb calls i 100% check behind turn nearly all the time. on most rivers i would call but depending on bet-zigin i would fold prolly fold a 10/9.
Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: GreekStein on November 11, 2008, 03:12:29 PM Make it 46 here. 62 is too much. Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: bolt pp on November 11, 2008, 04:24:47 PM Make it 46 here. 62 is too much. I dont mind the bet size, you know for sure if you're beat if he re-shoves though fck it i think i'm having it on the flop the way it was played if he does cos i'm probably 5 buy-ins down already, i always re-raise pre here. It's like turning jj into 22 playing it multi way against 3 opp, position doesnt help that much multiway with such a vunerable holding you're almost set mining with the 4th best starting hand? Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: Moskvich on November 11, 2008, 06:05:52 PM Make it 46 here. 62 is too much. I dont mind the bet size, you know for sure if you're beat if he re-shoves though fck it i think i'm having it on the flop the way it was played if he does cos i'm probably 5 buy-ins down already, i always re-raise pre here. It's like turning jj into 22 playing it multi way against 3 opp, position doesnt help that much multiway with such a vunerable holding you're almost set mining with the 4th best starting hand? I kind of take your point, though I don't really agree... Rather than a flat call turning JJ into 22, I think the reraise potentially does just that - it leaves me playing the bottom of my perceived reraising range, rather than the top of my flat calling range. So if I reraise and then get action, then it doesn't much matter whether I've got JJ or 22, cos I'm likely to need a set to continue in either case. Obviously yes, it would have helped if both blinds hadn't come along for the ride... I wasn't any buy-ins down at this point lol. Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: bolt pp on November 11, 2008, 06:25:52 PM Make it 46 here. 62 is too much. I dont mind the bet size, you know for sure if you're beat if he re-shoves though fck it i think i'm having it on the flop the way it was played if he does cos i'm probably 5 buy-ins down already, i always re-raise pre here. It's like turning jj into 22 playing it multi way against 3 opp, position doesnt help that much multiway with such a vunerable holding you're almost set mining with the 4th best starting hand? I kind of take your point, though I don't really agree... Rather than a flat call turning JJ into 22, I think the reraise potentially does just that - it leaves me playing the bottom of my perceived reraising range, rather than the top of my flat calling range. So if I reraise and then get action, then it doesn't much matter whether I've got JJ or 22, cos I'm likely to need a set to continue in either case. Obviously yes, it would have helped if both blinds hadn't come along for the ride... I wasn't any buy-ins down at this point lol. I understand how you're approaching it but you lose a lot of the power of the buton by flatting pre and make it tricky for yourself to know exactly where you are when the flop brings overs Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: AlexMartin on November 12, 2008, 12:29:33 AM Make it 46 here. 62 is too much. I dont mind the bet size, you know for sure if you're beat if he re-shoves though fck it i think i'm having it on the flop the way it was played if he does cos i'm probably 5 buy-ins down already, i always re-raise pre here. It's like turning jj into 22 playing it multi way against 3 opp, position doesnt help that much multiway with such a vunerable holding you're almost set mining with the 4th best starting hand? I kind of take your point, though I don't really agree... Rather than a flat call turning JJ into 22, I think the reraise potentially does just that - it leaves me playing the bottom of my perceived reraising range, rather than the top of my flat calling range. So if I reraise and then get action, then it doesn't much matter whether I've got JJ or 22, cos I'm likely to need a set to continue in either case. Obviously yes, it would have helped if both blinds hadn't come along for the ride... I wasn't any buy-ins down at this point lol. I understand how you're approaching it but you lose a lot of the power of the buton by flatting pre and make it tricky for yourself to know exactly where you are when the flop brings overs huh? Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: bolt pp on November 12, 2008, 01:06:16 PM Make it 46 here. 62 is too much. I dont mind the bet size, you know for sure if you're beat if he re-shoves though fck it i think i'm having it on the flop the way it was played if he does cos i'm probably 5 buy-ins down already, i always re-raise pre here. It's like turning jj into 22 playing it multi way against 3 opp, position doesnt help that much multiway with such a vunerable holding you're almost set mining with the 4th best starting hand? I kind of take your point, though I don't really agree... Rather than a flat call turning JJ into 22, I think the reraise potentially does just that - it leaves me playing the bottom of my perceived reraising range, rather than the top of my flat calling range. So if I reraise and then get action, then it doesn't much matter whether I've got JJ or 22, cos I'm likely to need a set to continue in either case. Obviously yes, it would have helped if both blinds hadn't come along for the ride... I wasn't any buy-ins down at this point lol. I understand how you're approaching it but you lose a lot of the power of the buton by flatting pre and make it tricky for yourself to know exactly where you are when the flop brings overs huh? unless you hit a set here being 4 handed what good is position when you're pretty much folding to any overs and any connected flop? the button doesnt make the decission easier the way its played if you dont hit a set you're folding most flops(especially against the action faced) kinda pointless being in position if thats the case. I understand what moskovich is saying and why he flatted pre but i dont know what network this is on i would expect to get called by a lot worse than jj, especially 3 betting from the button(i do anyway, but my reg oppos se me do some strange stuff, especially in pos) so jj on the button is huge here for me, i want the origional raiser to put more money in and go 2 to the flop, seeing it 4 way and flatting pre causes all sorts of unnessarcery complications imo Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: bolt pp on November 12, 2008, 01:09:12 PM I know you're a busy man so i'll post your riposte for you ;)
It's not 2005 bolt, we have to mix up our play a bit more, games are a lot tougher Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: byronkincaid on November 12, 2008, 02:44:08 PM i'm quite surprised you guys think turning an overpair into a bluff is good on the flop. i'm not convinced at all yet. although it's possible the game has moved on again and left me behind a bit, raptor has spoken in his vids about doing this cos it makes it easier to play.
hmmm Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: AlexMartin on November 12, 2008, 04:30:59 PM Make it 46 here. 62 is too much. I dont mind the bet size, you know for sure if you're beat if he re-shoves though fck it i think i'm having it on the flop the way it was played if he does cos i'm probably 5 buy-ins down already, i always re-raise pre here. It's like turning jj into 22 playing it multi way against 3 opp, position doesnt help that much multiway with such a vunerable holding you're almost set mining with the 4th best starting hand? I kind of take your point, though I don't really agree... Rather than a flat call turning JJ into 22, I think the reraise potentially does just that - it leaves me playing the bottom of my perceived reraising range, rather than the top of my flat calling range. So if I reraise and then get action, then it doesn't much matter whether I've got JJ or 22, cos I'm likely to need a set to continue in either case. Obviously yes, it would have helped if both blinds hadn't come along for the ride... I wasn't any buy-ins down at this point lol. I understand how you're approaching it but you lose a lot of the power of the buton by flatting pre and make it tricky for yourself to know exactly where you are when the flop brings overs huh? unless you hit a set here being 4 handed what good is position when you're pretty much folding to any overs and any connected flop? the button doesnt make the decission easier the way its played if you dont hit a set you're folding most flops(especially against the action faced) kinda pointless being in position if thats the case. I understand what moskovich is saying and why he flatted pre but i dont know what network this is on i would expect to get called by a lot worse than jj, especially 3 betting from the button(i do anyway, but my reg oppos se me do some strange stuff, especially in pos) so jj on the button is huge here for me, i want the origional raiser to put more money in and go 2 to the flop, seeing it 4 way and flatting pre causes all sorts of unnessarcery complications imo level? Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: bolt pp on November 12, 2008, 04:44:31 PM Make it 46 here. 62 is too much. I dont mind the bet size, you know for sure if you're beat if he re-shoves though fck it i think i'm having it on the flop the way it was played if he does cos i'm probably 5 buy-ins down already, i always re-raise pre here. It's like turning jj into 22 playing it multi way against 3 opp, position doesnt help that much multiway with such a vunerable holding you're almost set mining with the 4th best starting hand? I kind of take your point, though I don't really agree... Rather than a flat call turning JJ into 22, I think the reraise potentially does just that - it leaves me playing the bottom of my perceived reraising range, rather than the top of my flat calling range. So if I reraise and then get action, then it doesn't much matter whether I've got JJ or 22, cos I'm likely to need a set to continue in either case. Obviously yes, it would have helped if both blinds hadn't come along for the ride... I wasn't any buy-ins down at this point lol. I understand how you're approaching it but you lose a lot of the power of the buton by flatting pre and make it tricky for yourself to know exactly where you are when the flop brings overs huh? unless you hit a set here being 4 handed what good is position when you're pretty much folding to any overs and any connected flop? the button doesnt make the decission easier the way its played if you dont hit a set you're folding most flops(especially against the action faced) kinda pointless being in position if thats the case. I understand what moskovich is saying and why he flatted pre but i dont know what network this is on i would expect to get called by a lot worse than jj, especially 3 betting from the button(i do anyway, but my reg oppos se me do some strange stuff, especially in pos) so jj on the button is huge here for me, i want the origional raiser to put more money in and go 2 to the flop, seeing it 4 way and flatting pre causes all sorts of unnessarcery complications imo level? imagine you go out for the night and pull a bird and her sister, you go home with them and have a few drinks, then you all go into the bedroom where you instantly pass out, flatting pre here is the poker equivelent. you get points for use of the term "level" flushy went from saying that everyother post to not at all, bout time it had a ressurection Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: bolt pp on November 12, 2008, 04:48:52 PM p.s $1800 for that book, they couldve got a lot more ::) ;D
In all seriousness if you would just write your book i'd know how to play poker good innit? [ ] jj is a good hand 4 way [ ] raiser only opens with qq+ here Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: AlexMartin on November 13, 2008, 02:30:18 AM Make it 46 here. 62 is too much. I dont mind the bet size, you know for sure if you're beat if he re-shoves though fck it i think i'm having it on the flop the way it was played if he does cos i'm probably 5 buy-ins down already, i always re-raise pre here. It's like turning jj into 22 playing it multi way against 3 opp, position doesnt help that much multiway with such a vunerable holding you're almost set mining with the 4th best starting hand? I kind of take your point, though I don't really agree... Rather than a flat call turning JJ into 22, I think the reraise potentially does just that - it leaves me playing the bottom of my perceived reraising range, rather than the top of my flat calling range. So if I reraise and then get action, then it doesn't much matter whether I've got JJ or 22, cos I'm likely to need a set to continue in either case. Obviously yes, it would have helped if both blinds hadn't come along for the ride... I wasn't any buy-ins down at this point lol. I understand how you're approaching it but you lose a lot of the power of the buton by flatting pre and make it tricky for yourself to know exactly where you are when the flop brings overs huh? unless you hit a set here being 4 handed what good is position when you're pretty much folding to any overs and any connected flop? the button doesnt make the decission easier the way its played if you dont hit a set you're folding most flops(especially against the action faced) kinda pointless being in position if thats the case. I understand what moskovich is saying and why he flatted pre but i dont know what network this is on i would expect to get called by a lot worse than jj, especially 3 betting from the button(i do anyway, but my reg oppos se me do some strange stuff, especially in pos) so jj on the button is huge here for me, i want the origional raiser to put more money in and go 2 to the flop, seeing it 4 way and flatting pre causes all sorts of unnessarcery complications imo level? nice bird analogy, made me chuckle ;) Of course 3betting pre is totally standard and probably best, but deffo flatting if there are fish in the blinds to help them make second best tp type hands that you can extract from easily. Also i dont mind flatting pre if your opponent is a TAG multitabler and/or abc solid type purely because it sucks to get 5b shoved on which AK will do a lot and i dont think its profitable full ring to get it in pre w JJ. Combinatronics means ur gonna be folding pre out of coinflips a lot. i mainly just completely disagree with this sentance bolt. i really really am not playing JJ to set mine when i flat a hj open. He will play the flop aggressively and play the turn facup a huge chunk of the time if he is a standard 200nl player, probably cbetting most dry highcard boards and givup most turns unimproved oop. Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: Longy on November 13, 2008, 11:20:11 AM Ffs i have read about 3 words in this thread and i know you are trying to tilt with misuse of the quote button.
Title: Re: JJ, is this OK..? Post by: kinboshi on November 13, 2008, 12:26:55 PM Quote Quote Quote Ffs i have read about 3 words in this thread and i know you are trying to tilt with misuse of the quote button. Quote You can't beat good quoting |