blonde poker forum

I called and lost....
PokerStars Game #22264962061: Tournament #122202062, $25+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2008/11/22 12:37:09 ET
Table '122202062 1' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 2: Blackoaktn (7585 in chips)
Seat 8: Pavel2112 (2880 in chips)
Seat 9: idolaf (3035 in chips)
Blackoaktn: posts the ante 25
Pavel2112: posts the ante 25
idolaf: posts the ante 25
Blackoaktn: posts small blind 200
Pavel2112: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Pavel2112 [Ah Ad]
idolaf: raises 2610 to 3010 and is all-in
Blackoaktn: calls 2810
Pavel2112: calls 2455 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [9s Jd 5d]
*** TURN *** [9s Jd 5d] [Qc]
*** RIVER *** [9s Jd 5d Qc] [7c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Blackoaktn: shows [Ks Ac] (high card Ace)
idolaf: shows [5s 9c] (two pair, Nines and Fives)
idolaf collected 310 from side pot
Pavel2112: shows [Ah Ad] (a pair of Aces)
idolaf collected 8640 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8950 Main pot 8640. Side pot 310. | Rake 0
Board [9s Jd 5d Qc 7c]
Seat 2: Blackoaktn (small blind) showed [Ks Ac] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 8: Pavel2112 (big blind) showed [Ah Ad] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 9: idolaf (button) showed [5s 9c] and won (8950) with two pair, Nines and Fives

No

Did you know there was a whinge thread ?

Wasn't whingeing...You are rude!

 Th Td

Not meaning to be rude,so are you seriously asking then should you fold AA on the bubble when your short stack,i presumed this was just another bad beat thread on the pha board sorry if i'm wrong about that.

Sorry....I cannot be bothered explaining myself or arguing...I'm sorry for posting this thread..please forgive me!!

Admin please remove this thread. I havent posted on Blonde for a while and I'd forgot why I stopped.

bye!

 Td Th

lol this post puts him on life tilt.

Wasn't trying to be rude or have an arguement just really unsure what you are looking for people to analyse after they read your post you have ace ace you are shortest stack at the table you got it in pf you fist pump your thru to next step then the poker gods decide to be brutal and you busto i seriously didn't think you were expecting someone to say you should've folded and i'm sure you no that so pointless taking a strop when i suggest this don't need analysing and therefore belongs in the whinge thread with the rest of the bad beats not on the hand analysis board

Fair play. If Tinsel Town would like to put forward arguments for passing then we can discuss them. Discussing the pros & cons of that will be fun, like talking about the pros & cons of not breathing. Passing in this instance gets you no closer to your goal because after the hand you would still be 3-handed and very short-stacked.

Sorry dude, but if you put up a hand with absolutely nothing to talk about you will get humorous results. I read about this convict in America who was in solitary confinement for years. This guy eventually made a whole chess set out of his own poo. Yeah, pretty funny, and probably objectional to some, but there was absolutely nothing to talk about right?

Poo man didn't have to pay 50p but I'm afraid you do Tinsel.

Awaits "zomg i can't pass aces, fk the maths" posts.

I meseed about with ranges as well if you disagree with them it still comes out -ve.

My initial thought was also that this wasn't necessarily an automatic call, I think it's a good question, as the Longy supercomputer seems to suggest. The comment of 'are you seriously considering passing aces when the short stack' totally misses the point, which is that being the short stack is precisely what makes it a borderline call. If you had 100 chips more than the button then you just call, because as long as the button doesn't win the pot then you're fine. If you're the short stack, on the other hand, then you have to win the 3-way pot or you're out.

Just read the rest of thread, cringreworthy stuff. For the first time ever, I can see why OP wants to not post on blonde again.

It is a completely valid question, for reasons which Mosk outlined, the steps structure is a bit like sattellites as the jumps in payout structure lead to extremely tight play around the bubble as it is simply about finishing in the top 2 here.

is it a steps specific formula?i.e have you taken into account we are allready guarenteed to replay this step?

Yes there is a custom structure in sngwiz that copies the exact payout for stars steps.

Whether we are guarenteed another shot is irrelevant as everyone has that locked up and we are simply playing for the top 2 now.

good call by the chipleader for more than 30% of his stack with 9 5. If he folds like he should have done then Tinsel is home and dry. Bad play rewarded nicely IMO. Dont know whether i could fold AA here to be honest. Probably have to run away and time out and hope it works out.

the 9.5 is the pusher on the button 3k stack

i knew that, just checking everyone following properly*




























* the above sentence may be a lie.

good post. please note!

zomg i can't pass aces, fk the maths

I apologise I missed the fact that there was a caller b4 you!!!! doh

lets all have a cuppa, watch Im a Celebrity and we can discuss this later

Davids a shoe in for first eviction

David is an utter tossbag

I dont much like that Nicola either

The validity of the question is diminished because the result of the individual hand is posted. So the poster asks...what you say is a valid question...but asks it in light of what happened to him. You can certainly filter the post to unearth a question should you wish and then say the question is valid out of it's original context. But you would be doing that in an attempt to prove quite a fragile point. Because if I was genuinely interested in the answers I wouldn't post the bad-beat result at the same time. Would you? I find giving due care to the content of one's replies when the op isn't interested in what you have to say hard. If op really wanted to know the answer to this why does he want the thread removed after the first reply? Longy, if you are interested in PHA success then why is highlighting that cringeworthy? And why is championing the op at the expense of good regular posters at all helpful really

Mondatoo, who seems like a good poster, points Tinsel Town's bb story to the whinge thread. Fair play. Tinsel Town calls him rude?? Mondatoo says sorry. Tinsel Town flips out?? I said someone made a chess set out of poo. Where is the cringworthy part of that sequence ffs?

Obviously me and you have different views on OP's reason for posting this thread, I view it as geniune question and you as a bad beat whinge.

I happen to agreee that posting results is a bad thing all the way round and have posted so on multiple occasions, regs and newbies a like do this. So i don't see that as a reason to think OP was not asking a geniune question. If you want to debate whether results should be revealed, we are on the same side of the fence and I think 90% of PHA posts (occasionally posting results is relevant to the analysis) shouldn't include results. To stop results orientated thinking, which includes telling OP's to stop moaning.

The fact is this hand is interesting and is quite close, in fact as you can see i think it is fold and the maths backs this up. So posting the hand is entirely relevant and shouldn't have been dismissed so quickly, whatever OP's motives.

I felt the replies were unnecessarilly harsh especially when they were wrong (we can argue for calling or folding but it is close) and this is not at all in the spirit of blonde and was very reminiscent of other forums.

Whether posters are regular or not is a bit of a non-arguement especially if the debate is going to reach the level of analysis exhibited early in this thread. If what regulars post is going to be complete unconstructive and indeed quite clearly misinformed. This is not going to lead to a particularly good PHA board imo, give me a bunch of informed constructive views from newbies any day of the week. In an ideal world regular posters will exhibit the latter traits. I don't think Tinsel town was out of line or flipped out particularly, I can see why he would be disappointed by the replies he got and thought posting on blonde wasn't a worthwhile experience.

I think you know i care about PHA success and try my best to contribute as much as i can to this board.

End Mantis length post, without the good literacy skills.

Very nice. If that's how you feel fair play. Just making a discussion of it would have proved your point. You see if you defend the op by saying this....

I don't think Tinsel town was out of line or flipped out particularly, I can see why he would be disappointed by the replies he got and thought posting on blonde wasn't a worthwhile experience.

...you would be saying that after 2 posts over 5 minutes and just 8 words it's understandable that he feels disappointed in Blonde PHA, and it's ok for him to call Mondatoo rude. And after a few more minutes and a very generous Mondatoo apology it's ok to be flipping out and calling for moderation. Sorry I don't agree with this part. He was out of line. If you ignore his haste, his bad beat story and his insult then I agree he's just a newbie looking for a bit of advice.

Sigh, this really does seem like a bad beat thread to me and I did state that it wasn't my intention to be rude or have an arguement about it i asked what his thought behind folding was so was open to the suggestion that this could be a legitimate question,I think anyone who knows me or reads my posts knows that i don't look to stir it are or make blonde look bad in anyway.I greatly appreciate some of the effort that some of the better players on here(i'm certainly not inc myself in that baracket) put into helping players to analyse hands and get something out of the pha board which is why i find it annoying when people waste 5 minutes of peoples time just to read a bad beat then it puts of a good player from even looking at hands as they don't want to read another bad beat story.

I certainly don't think what i said was cringeworthy but everyone's entitled to an opinion I certainly wouldn't wish to make someone not want to post on here as i get a lot out of the forum so try to give back whenever i can maybe i haven't done that here but i really don't see anyone ever folding in this spot to be fair,the maths seems a bit strange to me obviously i'm not clued up enough on cetain aspects of maths in poker,as i see it we've the nuts we get it all in pre we're at least 80% fav to win the hand,i believe and if we win the hand we are gtd seat through to next step they guy gets look on us.If we fold for some bizzare reason imo i guess we just hope the other player busto's

Apologies to those who think i was out of order

And Longy has kindly lifted the fog of you ignorance.  Irrespective of the OPs motive for postng the hand illustrates dramatically a hugely important concept in steps tournies.

Mondatoo...I apologise for calling you rude..I understand ,looking back, why you'd feel this was a whinging bad beat thread I'd opened.
I've been playing poker long enough to accept bad beats.. I accept i should have presented it differently and perhaps refrained from 'flipping out'.


I insta called here..and afterwards felt that I should have folded considering the Step structure. I called into a three way pot which i had to win.

Thanks to all who responded

TT

 
 

Fair play i can see why you'd flip out which is fair enough glad to see you have seen the support for your post.I still don't see how in this situation anything can explain a fold here but maybe i will learn someday that the -ev and the rest of the maths stuff can somehow make this a fold,just out of interest if this exact same scenario came up again would you consider folding ?

Although it would seem that the op motive wasn't to moan at a bad beat, i don't see this as being irrespective since I and many others find it extremely annoying to look at the pha board just to read a couple of bad beats which is why i referred to the whinge thread since that's how this read to me.I understand maths in poker however don't have the software to work out that this is a -ev play in a steps format long term.

Maybe I and others could get some benefit out of this thread then if you or longy would like to go a bit further into the concept of playing steps and being shortstacked on the bubble,such as what is our raising range,what is our calling range to an all in but then if AA is -ev surely nothing is are we just folding with the intention of hoping the other short stack busto's.Thanks

Steps are actually are very good description for the laddering process of each individual level but the payout structure in each level.

In this case in a step 2 when we are 3 handed everyone has locked up another try for level 2 and the 3 players are all shooting for the same prize. There is no reward as long you finish in the top 2 whether you finish with 1 chip or 10000 chips. Therefore survival is key and therefore chip utility and not pot odds is a main concern.

So bearing in mind we are doing everything to stop ourselves finishing 3rd, when in this situation we have two all ins from players that cover us. We are going have to be damn sure that we will beat both players.


So if we do call we need this exact scenario to survive Hero > Beats both villians - 70% of the time

Or we could fold and let them tangle, where their ranges are probably a flip against each other, so button busts about 50% of the time. Or button beats sb and we still have about a 20% chance of getting in the top 2 with the chips we have left. So we finish in the top 2 about 70% of the time.

So in this very simplified model of the situation we achieve our goal 70% of the time in both scenarios, hence this is pretty close.

In reality calling sometimes doesn't bust the button and he may make a big comeback a small % of the time and on the plus side for folding that sb was actually ahead of button and busts him more than 50% of the time.

 this is most deffo worthy of a pha thread imo. what is the answer?

Top thread.

How did he make the white pieces?

[ ]I realised that both the other players were all in and not just the short stack
[X] I would rather admit that i'm a complete tool who didn't read the op properly and hadn't realised this till reading longy's post yesterday then a donk who couldn't see the benefits of folding AA in this spot
[X] I will now go and hide for a while till this thread is on page 5+ so i don't have to read it again lol
[X] I am a donk anyway
[X] I again apologise to you tinsel town,i just read the title of your thread should i fold aces and went to the end of the hand and only noticed you that you had lost to the 9 5
[X] Hope this made you laugh at my utter stupidity and just ignore any future posts i make on pha blonde i talk shit

That is all  :)up ;dingdell; ;dingdell; ;hide;  ;grr; ;grr; ;grr; ;grr; ;grr; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated;

[X] I contemplated just deleting all this and leaving it to me just looking like an idiot
[X] I am an idiot
[X] Fuk it just press enter enjoy all  ;)

Six weeks eating nothing but Vitalin Complete Dry Dog Food.

 :respect: to everyone who contributed to this thread.

I believe all the pieces were brown. While I suppose this may cause some practical problems when playing I would imagine that because the guy was a murderous fiend, locked in solitary, and had a chess set made of poo, potential opponents were hard to come by. However, I still think he should have experimented with dietry change just so the pieces looked purty.

lol

[X] I am in the process of getting together a group of blondes who will take it in turns to bump this thread every time it's in danger of leaving the front page

 rotflmfao :)up

Am I right in assuming that if ICM says that you should fold aces here then the ranges are completely irrelevant? We're ahead of every range except AA+.

If this is the case then on a steps bubble with 2 all ins when you are the short stack you should always fold.

Did you mess with the AA player stack size to see how short you need to be before it becomes +EV? That would be interesting to know.

Ranges are pretty much irrelevant, in fact the tighter ranges include ax hands which we have even more dominated than two random cards, so the wider their range the worse it is for us. Though the sb's range vs the button's range makes a difference as when we fold we want sb's equity in the hand to be good.

No this doesn't mean we should always fold with two all in's in front of us, stack sizes matter and if the stacks were shallower than they are here, it becomes a call.