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OK - here's a thing that's been bugging me.  My daughter is now 6, and her father and I share custody 50/50.  He was raised as a Methodist and I catholic, but both of us now class ourselves as atheists.  Over the last year or so my daughter has become more curious about reilgion, and she knows many of her extended family attend church and believe in God, but that neither myself or her dad do.  Although she goes to a non-denomiational school, they sing hymns and the like at assembly, and put on the obligatory nativity play every year.

Now, usually when I'm dealing with questions about god/jesus/church/religion I answer as factually as I can, usually along starting along the lines of 'some people believe....'.  What's starting to concern me a little bit is that she is becoming much more aware of her own mortality and asking questions about what happens after people die etc.  When I was a kid it was kind of nice to be reassured that we would go to heaven and meet up with our loved ones there.  I usually say something like 'it's like going to sleep and not waking up' and when she specifically asks about heaven I say that some people believe in it. 

Whilst I try to keep as factual as possible where god etc is concerned, I go to great lengths to keep alive her belief in Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy etc and I'm kind of tempted sometimes to just go along with the God thing a bit while she's young, but somehow that seems different.

Anyway, a lot of old waffle in there - just wondered how other parents with no religious beliefs deal with this kind of thing?

unfortunately 6 is the age of unravelling,by that i mean the golden times of santa/tooth fairy are now over4/5 are simply the best 2 years with your kids in regard this area.Any older the worldly wise at school etc allways get to them and reveal the truth.As for God i would try to encourage the thought while not preaching until they make their own minds up.Im a Jedi btw lollllllllzz

father christmas and the toothfairy dont really precipitate a lifestyle choice later in life whereas it gets a bit dangerous placating a childs fears by just going along with whatevers easiest as you often believe what you're told when you're a kid and with the tooth fairy etc being things you can grow out of religion is not something that should be continued lightly with a child that isnt from parents that arnt completely into it.

I'd be more focused on having a talk with her about why she's thinking about this sort of stuff in the first place, i cant remember questioning my own mortality at this age so maybe she's getting this sort of stuff from other members of your/his family and if you're not comfortable with her being brought up like that and her dads the same then you can raise your concerns with that person whoever it maybe that you dont plan on bringing her up to be religious and you'd hope that they respect that.

If it gets a bit confrontational call em a bible bashing loonay and launch a flying headbutt IMO

I'd be honest with her about what you believe in(you can probably skip the being buried and eaten by maggots bit) but let her know that's what you believe and why you think it's important you do your best while your here and make the most of life now.

I'd keep up the "God thing" until it came out naturally through education etc.. she will likely be more equipped to understand it at that age, compared to trying to get her to understand the enormous ramifications of our own mortality at her current age.

I keep meaning to buy this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Parenting-Beyond-Belief-Raising-Religion/dp/0814474268/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230684386&sr=8-1), but haven't got around to it. Looks like it might be useful though.

I'm ex-religious, now fairly evangelical atheist, and my problem is that even non-denomination schools seem to have their fair share of teachers who like to force their religion down kids' throats. And when a teacher is telling kids that 2+2 is 4 and that God made the earth, they don't know they should believe no1, but not no2. So my eldest lad (6) seems to constantly come out with rubbish that I just now plainly just tell him is wrong.

I don't think a child needs religion for any reason personally. Santa and tooth fairy definitely exist though. And yes, that may be hypocritical, but it takes a lot more to persuade some brainwashed child that God doesn't actually exist than it does for him to find out that Santa doesn't.

The death thing is especially tough, but I just try and be as factual as I can, while trying to be fairly gentle about it. I generally go into the process of decomposition, which is especially fascinating to a 6 year old boy and diverts him from the whole heaven thing :). Not sure it would work on a girl though :).

really?  I  know I did.  It's not something she bangs on about all the time or anything, but now and again she'll say something like she doesn't want me/her dad/her nan etc to die.  I usually deal with it by saying that hopefully it's something she won't have to deal with for a long, long time, and that's usually enough.  I just somehow wish I could just give her all the heaven stuff which I found quite reassuring when I was young, but neither her dad or I really don't want to go down that road as we're quite anti-religion.

My mum beleives in God and I've occasionally caught her saying stuff as if it's fact, and I remind her to point out to my daughter that it's what 'some people believe in' and not fact, but then I feel somehow like I'm being mean.  Having just been brought up to blindly believe this stuff it's really difficult to know how to handle it as I've got nothing to follow.

ah good - I'm not alone!  That book looks great - I'm going to order it now, thanks.  I've actually been quite surprised at the level of religious content in the education system.  I went to catholic school so got it all the time obviously, but presumed a non-demoninational school would be a lot more objective when it came to that sort of stuff.  I suppose at the end of the day britain is still a christian country.

hmm - I might leave the decomposition stuff to one side for now and just stick with the 'staying asleep' bit!

I don't think it really helps if you tell her that you don't believe in God etc as i'm sure most schools still go down the route of God/Jesus/Mary etc and telling her otherwise would prob only confuse her. I remember Holly asking me about death etc and assured her that it would be years and years yet before she had to worry about anyone dying (bearing in mind that 2 weeks seems like a lifetime for kids  of that age) especially when there is an event coming up. i wouldn't get too worried yet. Wait til she's 11 and thinks Zac Efron is cooler than Jesus and she is gonna be his Mary ffs. Then you will have something to worry about!!!

Hmm i have a slmilar problem  when myself and my wife are not practicing any failth and we have liberal views o the whole organised religon thing, so whe my kids ocme home and we discuss what the have learned at school ( a faith school btw ) I explain how I see things, that way she has to assign her own objections to the subject matter.  I recall my Oldest daughter telling me how we were all created by god and came from the children of adam and eve, I had to expand on that and give her the aspect that evolution is probably ore to blame for our currnet physical attributes than some omnipresence.

There there  was the explaining of miracles and that the stuff she is taught comes from a book, a compendium of stories that cannot be confirmed beyond the Catholic church which is as good at keeping things secret as it is rattling off a hail mary.

my advice is give them the information and let them evaluate it Clare.

BTW Jesus is now a Magician and was soulstoned according to my daughter.

funny how kids are

What real harm do people think can happen to a child being taught Christianity as fact in a C of E (almost secular) kind of way ?

The worse that can happen is ...............................................................

Plenty of time to challenge belief systems for oneself later in life (as you have Claire). Children get a zillion inputs, many that conflict, and given time and a loving envirnoment I think they figure this stuff out for themselves quite easily when they're ready.

This

i was shocked with how much religion studies Lily did around christmas time this year and all based on the christian beliefs.Lily goes to a school with so many children with different religions that i know there were at least 4 complaints in her class alone.they were told its the curriculum so they had no choice.
i thought that schools would be teaching children that in this world people believe in lots of different religions.

I have to say, with respect, I couldn't disagree more. "God exists, Jesus came back from the dead, God created the sun and the earth and the people, and all the animals. Oh, and all the bacteria and viruses. He sends natural disasters to make sure we still have faith in him. It's his way of testing us.". And you think there is no harm in telling a child that as if it was fact? You end up with kids coming out with (and this is a direct quote from my 6 year old) - "When the sun goes out, God can just make a new one". Where do you start unravelling rubbish like that? If a teacher tells a child something, you hope the child pretty much takes it in no question at this age, otherwise it would take a long time to educate them. I would hope that a teacher would never lie to a child. Ever. And yet some do, and get away with it. Criminal offense, imho. A child working out that santa or the tooth fairy don't exist is a good thing - it shows they have the ability to question, to look at evidence, to deduce something. How do they do that with God? There's no evidence to look at, but plenty of people who will tell them that there is. People who deny centuries of rigorous scientific argument, testing and discussion because they, personally, don't understand it and can't believe it's possible (and yes, I'm mostly talking about evolution here).

The worst that can happen is ... you end up with a child who doesn't know how to work things out for themselves, who is emotionally stunted, who thinks that the only things that matter are written in a generally extremely nasty book written 4000-1600 years ago, who is intolerant and closed-minded. I could go on ranting, but I think that's enough for now :).

Edit: No, I'm going to carry on.
Obviously, the absolute worst thing that could happen is that your child is left vulnerable to the kind of people who will tell them that to fly a plane into a building full of people will bring them eternal paradise. Or to a cult where they are told they are not allowed to have any contact with their family because it will taint them.

How is it that a child can work out there is no santa by age 6-8, but some never work out that God is a lie made up to control them?

In Heather's class they learn about all sorts of religions, they did Diwali not long ago and they've done other things in the past and I think they have other festivals coming up.  (she's only been there since Sept so not 100% sure) They get quite into it and it looks great fun.   I was quite surprised as it's not that diverse culture round here but they take lots into consideration which is fantastic and a great opportunity for the kds to be more aware than we ever were at school.

As for our beliefs, both Mrs Silo and I are non relgious, in fact, I'd rather not have anything to do with it.  The Mother-in-Law is well in to being Christian and the Mrs is more into it than me, but no pressure is put on our daughter.  She asks all the questions and she loves some of the stories, but we wouldn't try and sway her either way but if she decides that she wants something else in her life later on, then it's up to her.  I expect more questions to be asked as she gets a bit older, but at the moment she loves Baby Jesus because he's a baby so that's all good :D

I agree with you missc, however this country is predominantly christian and i think that filters in to our school network, I am going to use a quote to illustrate the way i believe some of the "old hats" think

    Joseph Palmi: We Italians, we got our families and we got the church. The Irish, they have the homeland. The Jews, their traditions. Even the Niggers, they got their music. What about you people Mr. Carlson, what do you have?
    Edward: The United States of America, the rest of you are just visiting.

from the good shepherd, its a narrow point of view but one i think is reflected in this country a lot hence the lack of momentum to embrace other cultures

I've just rung my Dad as I thought neither of my parents were religious but as a child they sent me to Sunday school in a little tin chapel in the village, even though neither of them attended chuch regularly.  

In fact it turns out that my Dad's childhood involved a lot of church going (as he was raised a Methodist) and when I was growing up they decided that as I was questioning and starting to make decisions for myself they would give me the opportunity to do the same with religion.

It was always my choice if I wanted to go and after the first visit I decided I wanted to go again and continued going to church for about nine years, I was baptised when I was 13.  

A few years later I decided against it and stopped going, but I'm glad that I went as I experienced a lot about people and family, generosity of spirit, work in the community etc etc.

If Hannah is capable of making the choice I would give her the opportunity to choose, children are incredibly intuitive. Better to introduce it now while you have some influence and final decision. If all it does is introduce a further element of moral fibre, and decision making based on morals into her life then all to the good. My Dad just said that he knew his banging on about 'don't do this' was falling on deaf ears more and more so he let the pastor and eternal damnation have a go.

I'm not sure if the ten commandments taught me anything or just gave me ideas for the future but at that time they gave me a postive influence!

Claire, you have a PM.

oh come on Kin...post your tilty rant here!

He doesn't want everyone to know he's been born again, that's fair enough.

FYP?

Just tell her the truth.  Tell her what mummy believes, and that people across the world believe in all sorts of gods according to where they were born.  Tell her about the Egyptian gods, the Greek gods, and then about the Abrahamic god(s) and the other popular religions of the 21st century.

I wouldn't lie to her about heaven - because then you have to explain hell.  Hell isn't very nice, and neither would be a god who condemned people to eternal suffering.

You might want to introduce her to some of Aesop's fables at the same time as some of the bible stories.  I'd avoid Job, or the story of Sodom and Gomorrah - in fact probably best to avoid a lot of the stories that are pretty much x-rated until she's older.

But I don't have kids, so I really shouldn't be posting on here...

Thanks for the replies everyone.  I think Rex and I are of one mind on this one.

I understand where you're coming from too Trace - I think I'm fundamentally a 'good' person, and I think a lot of that comes from the moral upbringing that was instilled in me through the church (along with a load of crap). Maybe it wasn't, I don't know.  Hopefully the book Rex has directed me too which I've now ordered will help with doing some of that in a non-religious way.  

Thanks for the PM Kin.

You don't need a church with its arbitrary rules to have a moral upbringing.  Morals are not the sole domain of religion.  I refer again to the trials of Job or Sodom and Gomorrah and ask how they provide any moral compass?

yes I know that, of course, but it's how I was brought up so it's the extent of my personal experience.  I certainly believe being raised in a religious environment has given me a lot more hang ups too and no doubt been more than partly responsible for a lot of the problems I've experienced later in life. 

It's amazing how we all have different experiences. I think that it gave me an insight into differing views. I always listen to all political arguments before deciding what to vote for example. It comes from discussing rights and wrongs in the happy clappy tin church. Perhaps they were less sanctimonious than some churches, I think that's why my Dad chose it, not too cult like, nice people, and no booze.

yes it certainly sounds different Trace.  I was told what was right and what was wrong at my school - there was no discussion!

I'd go along with this.

Obviously you have to be wary of any school or any individuals who set out to tell her 'facts' about religion in absolutist terms of right and wrong, but generally speaking she'll work out whatever she believes in by herself.

As an example of how little influence you might actually have:
Me and my younger sister have nothing to do with the church, my older brother is a regular church goer - and my older sister is a minister.
From that I don't think you could really work out where our parents stood on it.

So as long as you make sure she avoids any complete 'brainwashing' (from either side), I don't think it's even possible for you to go far wrong.

Why shouldn't Claire tell Hannah what she thinks is right, and therefore what she thinks is made-up stories?   Why COE and not Catholic, or maybe a non-Christian religion such as Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, or maybe the Greek gods or even Scientology?

Before you do anything I think you need to establish for yourself exactly what you think of religion and exactly what benefits it confers. Some people (like here) seem to think it may confer a moral framework, whether it's based on truth or not. Others think that teaching its belief system is harmless, others quite harmful.
I was brought up in a religious environment, it was only by a minor miracle actually that I was able to extricate myself from what I was taught. All of my close and extended family members are still seriously involved in it. I don't believe its a matter of 'teach them some stuff and let them work out the rest later'. Humans are cultural beings, we're built to accept what we're taught at an early age as if it were gospel (lawl) and built not to deviate from it later even if our reason seems to be challenging it a bit. In my opinion, this is why religion still pervades our society, despite so many philosophical revolutions to the contrary: in so many families this cycle repeats from generation to generation. Kids 'believe' something cos it's what their parents/school teaches them about religion; they become unsure whether to accept or reject it really; they pass the religion on to their kids; rinse/repeat.
As for the morality provided by Christianity: certain arbitrary components may seem healthy/adaptive (do onto others as you would have them do onto you; love thy neighbour; do not worship worldly possessions; give to the poor;be humble) but in fact this is the sheep's clothing for a pretty f*cked up moral framework built around blame and guilt, that ends up pervading the personal and social attributions of those poisoned by it.
The Truth Will Set You Free.
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/nicci6ftunder/apathy.jpg)

If I was going to for one, I'd go for the Ancient Greek Gods

They had the best stories

Respect to all the atheists on here, if theres one thing to teach your kids its to question, question, question. There is not a single aspect of religion (that does not also exist outside of religion) that is worth having.

You could explain to your daughter that she is made of billions of atoms that are as old as the universe and when she dies those atoms will go on to be other living things. Or that people are made from a pattern of DNA which you pass on to your children and them onto their children and so you go on living through your children.

Any talk of heaven is just pacifying and will no doubt be neither reassuring or really answer the question.

Just my 2 cents.

Happy new year.

The atoms thing is an interesting point.  Did you know that when we die none of the atoms in our body were there when we were born?

Ain't life brilliant?

Why do we want to lie to our kids at all?

Santa/toothfairy/easter bunny /gods and religion it's all a load of twaddle.

And no, I'm not having a drunken rant, wasn't partying last night as that's happening today when all the family get together.

Religion is one of the main causes of war these days, I say teach all kids that there are no gods and we'll have less wars - of course, I know, it's never gonna happen.

Geo

Interesting points and as a dad of a 2 year old something ive been trying to decide on myself

personally I dont go to church but I do believe in God I believe there is either one god who appears to different cultures in different ways or many because i never understood how one religion could claim 100% that THEIRS is the true religion. That said I do believe in a higher power and wether you call him/her Jehovah/Buddah/Allah the basic principle is that there is right and wrong

Lets face it when the shit really hits the fan (and im not talking about having your aces cracked but the real serious stuff) most people say a prayer of some kind

As for the school thing the UK is predominantly christian when I was in the middle east I observed the religion of that country and was respectful of it , why should that be different in the UK. I actually think its good that we have a multi cultural society as it means we will slowly learn to accept the differences between us that said there are plenty of building dedicated to the various religions you have in the UK.

It does annoy me slightly where christianity always has to tread carefully in its own country where as other religions are yelling from the rooftops when they dont get their own way a good example of this is the cartoon in the Danish (i think) newspaper of Allah - there was international condemnation however had that been Jesus cartoonified likely nothing would have been said

anyhow digressed slightly but there my two pence

Is that a real gold gun?

How many towns and cities in the UK had 'festive hanging lights' that demonstrated anything religious? We got 'bells' and 'socks', which in my opinion is grossly offensive to those who worship neither.

Why is it that religion is a non opt out lesson in school?

Surely we should be able to let the children decide what path they want to follow when they are at an age where they understand and can make the decision for themselves,be truthfull and tell them both sides instead of just giving them the religious choice.

I think children should be taught about all religions.  Paganism, the Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Norse gods, the different Abrahamic gods, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Shintoism, Scientology, and all the other funny stories.  If they're all taught equally, and shown that it depends where you're born and which meme is passed on to you by your parents, they'll soon realise what they all are.

so at which age should they be allowed to make their choice?

When they are old enough. The 'problem' is that most don't make a choice.  They are indoctrinated when they are young.  They then have to 'unlearn' what they've been brought up to believe, or of course, they can continue to believe what they were taught when they were young.

What religion shouldn't do is interfere with the child receiving a rounded education in other areas. 

Anyway, I shouldn't be on this thread - I don't have children...

the problem is they don't have a choice.which is fine if they are of religious persuasion but if they are not they still have to attend R.E which IMO is wrong,surely they would be better off being educated in something else

Children aren't of a religious persuasion.  There's no such thing as a child born a Muslim, or a Christian, etc.  Their parents make this decision for them.

I think you're right about RE.  Don't they have something called social studies or something similar, which talks about religion, moral issues, etc.?  It certainly doesn't need a religious doctrine to educate children about that.

But why teach them balderdash in the first place?????


Geo

Sighhhhh Of course god is real, havent you seen Bruce Almighty or Evan Almighty ??

God is the dead spit of that old geezer from Shawshank Redemption you know.

sigh, yes seen it

dont need to be reminded of it though, still so so angry!!

i suppose the only exception to the rule are the Jewish, You are born jewish and the choice to follow the failth yours.

There are two uses of being of the term Jew and Jewish.  One is the group/race, and the other is someone who follows Judaism.  The two are very closely intertwined (obviously), but are distinct.  You can be Jewish (part of the group), and not believe in god.  So someone could be an 'atheist Jew' and it's not contradictory.  So a child might be born 'Jewish', but they are not born believing the Jewish faith.

i know that

There can't be a god, Chompy just finalled at Luton and no god would ever let that happen. End of discussion.  ;D

-1

Proof For and Against the existence of God, post yours here.

If there's no God, how did this happen?

(http://www.hollywood-celebrity-pictures.com/Celebrities/Maria-Sharapova/Maria-Sharapova-11.JPG)

god didnt do it thast for sure, You see when a man and a woman love eachother very much.........

Why doesn't everyone look like that?

Proof there isn't a god.

I was allowed to opt out of religious studies in High School. I jumped at the opportunity, I have to say. I think the important factor to remember in regards to children growing up is that they're going to make their own decision about this anyway, so you shouldn't feel worried about offering your own opinion. If someone is going to have an influence on them, so be it, let it be you.

Discussing heaven and hell is more of a sore point to me, given that I think we were led down this dark path so many years ago because of the fact we are afraid of the unknown. Religion is a cheat for death. A path to immortality. A better life. Something after this. "I don't want to die and for that to be the end. I want to believe in something more."

I do believe that religious communities instill, on the whole, a good message and a moral education but the benefits are weighed heavily against the simple fact that this person believes in a being so powerful and benign that his entire world rests on works written by a mortal group of men that hadn't got the answers we now have. God was the answer to those questions we've begun to unravel with science.

[X] My parents offered me their opinion
[X] They wanted to be the ones having an influence on me
[ ] I'm glad they bothered.

[X] Religion is a cheat for life?

Unless you believe in God, which I am coming to more and more

On the second day, God put her on a beach, and saw that it was good

(http://cajaequis.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/sharapov2.jpg)

it isn't. schools have an obligation to teach religion but all parents (at non denominational schools) have the option to opt out on behalf of their children and 6th form pupils can do it for themselves. it's only at church schools where opt outs tend to not be allowed as you kind of signed up for it when you applied to the school

They can!

(http://blogs.iona.com/vinoski/archives/jaoo-20-beers.jpg)

Works for me ;)

What would Nike be called if there were no Gods?

[ ] I knew that Nike was the greek goddess of victory. Nice spot!

then what ffs?!!!!

dont stop a story just as you've started it ;grr;

But this is the parents deciding not the kids,My eldest would love to opt out but his mum wont let him,so he has to continue to do it.I have spoken to the school on this subject and was told that seeing as i am not the parent with care i cannot have any influence on his schooling wtf!!

a cross party commitee agrees with you http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1956097/Religious-education-classes-%27should-be-optional%27.html can't see it happening though, you get on shakey ground when you start letting kids opt out of subjects

Odd. I never needed permission to not study it. I was allowed to choose the subjects I wished to study at GCSE level and R.E was actually listed as an optional given the nature of it. Couldn't pass over science or math, for example.

Claw, why don't you just set up your own religion and tout yourself as the Daughter of God? Will make it a lot easier to get your kids to do stuff. We can be your first disciples.

 :birthday: :birthday: :birthday: Kin


 rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao This made my day. You couldn't make it up

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7818980.stm

lol - fantastic!!!

But Stephen Green, national director of Christian Voice, said: "There is plenty of evidence for God, from people's personal experience, to the complexity, interdependence, beauty and design of the natural world.

"But there is scant evidence on the other side, so I think the advertisers are really going to struggle to show their claim is not an exaggeration or inaccurate, as the ASA code puts it."

O RLY?

Of course god exists

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

:D

Stephen Green is a complete tosser.  The man talks utter bilge.

FML!!!..............I agree with Dan.

Geo

QFT!!!

:D

There are plenty atheist tossers out there too

There certainly are.  There are lots of decent religious people too. 

This guy is a tosser though, and for some reason a beloved of the media who provide him with a forum to spout his nonsense.

A couple from 2 different faiths have a child how do they choose the religion for the child?

er they dont, the child should chose what religion they want.

They don't. The child has Both faiths taught/explained, and is free to choose as they please later in life.

so what would happen until then? would they go to both places of worship?

Neither or both

FYP