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Title: What the hell has he got?? Post by: EvilPie on January 14, 2009, 12:20:58 AM Playing in a live £75 tournament at DTD. Was sat next to oppo on previous table and have some history of me re raising his button raises when I was SB to his button. We have already talked about this so we both know the score.
We are now sat opposite each other and it's my BB. I'm on 25k, he's on about 12k, blinds are 300/600 + 50. It folds to him and he raises it up to 1600. This is a fairly standard raise for him. He never seems to raise more than 3 x BBs and is often in the 2.5 BB area. He's been quite active especially in unopened pots but so have I and like I say we both know this. He also doesn't often flat call. It's either raise or pass. Anyway I flat it with Kh 7h and we see a flop of Ad 6s 9c I check and he checks behind. Turn comes Kc. Check, check again. River comes 4d so I lead out for 2k hoping to catch a few extra if he's got a bit of the board or a small pair. The pot is now 3900. He has a little think and repops it to 7k leaving himself about 3.5k behind. What's my action here? What can I be putting him on? Is it worth calling off 5000 chips? Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: booder on January 14, 2009, 12:24:48 AM fold pre please
Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: Cf on January 14, 2009, 02:52:50 AM Can't really fault the preflop call, plenty in the pot at this stage.
Don't know if I like leading the river though. As for what does villian have? Almost ATC here. You've checked both the flop/turn and are now firing on the river. You don't mention any history of villians post flop play (eg, does he usually cbet?), but your line here is hardly strong. Given that I say he could have almost anything it's almost worth calling given that you're getting 2 to 1. But I much prefer to check this down, or even check/call if you feel you're ahead, as he probably has a better hand than you a decent amount of the time here. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: NoflopsHomer on January 14, 2009, 03:24:15 AM fold pre please Or raise, don't flat and play a marginal hand unless you're comfortable playing spots like this on the river. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: MANTIS01 on January 14, 2009, 05:21:35 AM I don't think you were ever ahead.
Why doesn't he bet the A on a rainbow board? Prob because he has it. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: boldie on January 14, 2009, 06:09:01 AM fold pre please Or raise, don't flat and play a marginal hand unless you're comfortable playing spots like this on the river. This. there is a reason he only raises less than 3BBs at a time..and you playing K7 is it. I reckon you're well behind here. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: Longy on January 14, 2009, 07:42:18 AM Pre flop- Fold >>> Raise>Shove>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Call.
Playing this hand oop this deep is not good imo, you are never going to extract enough when you flop a monster and when you make marginal hands you have horrid reverse implied odds, which will be a sod to play oop. Shades of the Claw vs Simon Galloway hands this. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: EvilPie on January 14, 2009, 09:28:17 AM I need to turn this round now and tell you the reason for posting this hand.
It was actually the opposite way round. I was the one who'd raised and he flatted from the BB. I wanted to get people's thoughts on how I had played the hand from the other guy's perspective and see what he could put me on to call the 5k on the river with his K7. As it was he was correct to call as I had QQ. I couldn't see how he could be strong here so decided to bluff at the pot with the 5k raise and he managed to find the call. It wasn't a snap call either, it took a few minutes. I couldn't see what he could have to bet 2k on the river. I had put him on the king but with a better kicker. Something like KJ / KQ was my thinking. I figured I could even get weak aces to lay down with this bet. I couldn't see the point in calling, it was too much of my stack and I'm only beating a bluff. By raising I figure I can get a lot of better hands to pass. Is this a mistake? Should I just give up on the pot and pass? I thought my 5k raise looked strong, certainly stronger than K7 but he said he just couldn't figure out how I could be strong to have played the hand the way I did. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: TheChipPrince on January 14, 2009, 09:48:01 AM ***118 118***
Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: MANTIS01 on January 14, 2009, 10:34:10 AM Whatever your thinking the bottom line is you represented the A on the river at a price of 7k when you could have represented in on the flop for 2.5k. Paying 3x the price for the same move can never be classed as prudent poker imo.
Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: EvilPie on January 14, 2009, 10:52:59 AM Whatever your thinking the bottom line is you represented the A on the river at a price of 7k when you could have represented in on the flop for 2.5k. Paying 3x the price for the same move can never be classed as prudent poker imo. Yeah I know what you're saying. The guy was no fool though. He can see through a c bet rep quite easily and is likely to raise to put me to the test as his stack is much bigger than mine. I thought afterwards that I should maybe have repped it on the flop, checked behind on the turn then jam the river if his betting allows it. I don't think I'm deep enough here to get away with this though. At some point we're going to end up with him shoving first or me shoving with no FE. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: GreekStein on January 14, 2009, 11:07:26 AM Why didn't you bet the flop or turn Evil?
Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: EvilPie on January 14, 2009, 12:03:22 PM Why didn't you bet the flop or turn Evil? I didn't bet the flop because I wanted to give him a chance to make a move on the turn. I assume I'm ahead on the flop because he reraises me from the BB with most aces. However, if I bet there is a strong chance that he will raise me knowing that I'm on a standard "find out where I am" type bet which will put me to a big test. I expect him to take a shot on the turn but when the K comes my hand is now a lot more vulnerable so I'm pleased with the chance to check and keep the pot small. When he bets the river I just don't think he's that strong. The way he played the hand made me feel that I could get him off the pot. If he was strong he would be betting earlier because he has a good chance of getting my chips. I can't imagine that I'm ahead though so it's either raise it or pass. I know that this is one of those hands where I'm turning a big hand in to a bluff but I was well aware of this at the time. I might as well have had nothing but I still think the call would be poor as I can only beat a bluff. I thought the raise would see off a lot of hands that were beating me. Oppo was Ben Vinson btw. He's a very good player and knows what he's doing so I needed to be very careful how I played this hand. Unfortunately I wasn't careful enough :) Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: MANTIS01 on January 14, 2009, 12:25:22 PM If you raised pre with A-10 what would you do on the flop when it was checked to you?
Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: MC on January 14, 2009, 12:35:56 PM What is confusing is the check on the turn. I'd only expect him to do this strong if the King improved him.
I dunno, either he has 2 pair or possible set, or he has air. But I guess it's much more likely he's strong in this spot, and you should probably muck. I can see why your radar was buzzing on this one though... Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: GreekStein on January 14, 2009, 12:45:12 PM Why didn't you bet the flop or turn Evil? I didn't bet the flop because I wanted to give him a chance to make a move on the turn. I assume I'm ahead on the flop because he reraises me from the BB with most aces. However, if I bet there is a strong chance that he will raise me knowing that I'm on a standard "find out where I am" type bet which will put me to a big test. I expect him to take a shot on the turn but when the K comes my hand is now a lot more vulnerable so I'm pleased with the chance to check and keep the pot small. When he bets the river I just don't think he's that strong. The way he played the hand made me feel that I could get him off the pot. If he was strong he would be betting earlier because he has a good chance of getting my chips. I can't imagine that I'm ahead though so it's either raise it or pass. I know that this is one of those hands where I'm turning a big hand in to a bluff but I was well aware of this at the time. I might as well have had nothing but I still think the call would be poor as I can only beat a bluff. I thought the raise would see off a lot of hands that were beating me. Oppo was Ben (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=47) Vinson (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=47) btw. He's a very good player and knows what he's doing so I needed to be very careful how I played this hand. Unfortunately I wasn't careful enough :) Reason I asked the question was exactly what you mentioned - we're likely to be reraised by a BB with an ace pre flop especially given your history with him. Such a dry flop I'm assuming most live players at this level won't often raise you without it and on this flop he's so unlikely to have connected at all. However, the fact that it's Ben Vinson does make a difference as he isn't exactly your normal £75 freezeout player and capable of putting you in an awkward spot. I'm still betting this flop I think though - as its also equally hard for him to rep an ace or something that's hit that board hard and I just don't want to give him free cards. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: EvilPie on January 14, 2009, 12:48:56 PM If you raised pre with A-10 what would you do on the flop when it was checked to you? Against this oppo. I think I check giving him a chance to do a few chips on the turn. Obviously the King wouldn't be a scare card for me in this situation so I would bet the turn when it was checked to me. I may also bet to make it look like a c bet rep of the ace hoping for a raise out of him which would be highly likely. It's difficult to answer this but looking back at the situation I think I check. Thinking about it now I should probably bet the flop hoping for a raise anyway. I didn't put him on the ace from the outset so if I do get the raise I'm hoping for I can just shove my QQ. Problem here is that with 2 cards to come there's no FE against weak aces if he happens to have one. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: EvilPie on January 14, 2009, 01:05:28 PM Why didn't you bet the flop or turn Evil? I didn't bet the flop because I wanted to give him a chance to make a move on the turn. I assume I'm ahead on the flop because he reraises me from the BB with most aces. However, if I bet there is a strong chance that he will raise me knowing that I'm on a standard "find out where I am" type bet which will put me to a big test. I expect him to take a shot on the turn but when the K comes my hand is now a lot more vulnerable so I'm pleased with the chance to check and keep the pot small. When he bets the river I just don't think he's that strong. The way he played the hand made me feel that I could get him off the pot. If he was strong he would be betting earlier because he has a good chance of getting my chips. I can't imagine that I'm ahead though so it's either raise it or pass. I know that this is one of those hands where I'm turning a big hand in to a bluff but I was well aware of this at the time. I might as well have had nothing but I still think the call would be poor as I can only beat a bluff. I thought the raise would see off a lot of hands that were beating me. Oppo was Ben (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=47) Vinson (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=47) btw. He's a very good player and knows what he's doing so I needed to be very careful how I played this hand. Unfortunately I wasn't careful enough :) Reason I asked the question was exactly what you mentioned - we're likely to be reraised by a BB with an ace pre flop especially given your history with him. Such a dry flop I'm assuming most live players at this level won't often raise you without it and on this flop he's so unlikely to have connected at all. However, the fact that it's Ben (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=47) Vinson (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=47) does make a difference as he isn't exactly your normal £75 freezeout player and capable of putting you in an awkward spot. I'm still betting this flop I think though - as its also equally hard for him to rep an ace or something that's hit that board hard and I just don't want to give him free cards. I was happy giving a free card because I thought my QQ was good and don't want him to pass hands that I'm beating. I didn't expect the free card to be a king unfortunately. I was hoping to let him catch up with a 10 or J or maybe make him feel his 9 was good if he had that. I guess his check on the turn is quite strong as I expected him to lead out to steal following my check on the flop. This is why I checked behind because I suspect he could now be ahead. I didn't really understand his bet on the river and it just seemed weak so I thought I could nick it. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: GreekStein on January 14, 2009, 01:12:19 PM Why didn't you bet the flop or turn Evil? I didn't bet the flop because I wanted to give him a chance to make a move on the turn. I assume I'm ahead on the flop because he reraises me from the BB with most aces. However, if I bet there is a strong chance that he will raise me knowing that I'm on a standard "find out where I am" type bet which will put me to a big test. I expect him to take a shot on the turn but when the K comes my hand is now a lot more vulnerable so I'm pleased with the chance to check and keep the pot small. When he bets the river I just don't think he's that strong. The way he played the hand made me feel that I could get him off the pot. If he was strong he would be betting earlier because he has a good chance of getting my chips. I can't imagine that I'm ahead though so it's either raise it or pass. I know that this is one of those hands where I'm turning a big hand in to a bluff but I was well aware of this at the time. I might as well have had nothing but I still think the call would be poor as I can only beat a bluff. I thought the raise would see off a lot of hands that were beating me. Oppo was Ben (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=47) Vinson (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=47) btw. He's a very good player and knows what he's doing so I needed to be very careful how I played this hand. Unfortunately I wasn't careful enough :) Reason I asked the question was exactly what you mentioned - we're likely to be reraised by a BB with an ace pre flop especially given your history with him. Such a dry flop I'm assuming most live players at this level won't often raise you without it and on this flop he's so unlikely to have connected at all. However, the fact that it's Ben (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=47) Vinson (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=47) does make a difference as he isn't exactly your normal £75 freezeout player and capable of putting you in an awkward spot. I'm still betting this flop I think though - as its also equally hard for him to rep an ace or something that's hit that board hard and I just don't want to give him free cards. I was happy giving a free card because I thought my QQ was good and don't want him to pass hands that I'm beating. I didn't expect the free card to be a king unfortunately. I was hoping to let him catch up with a 10 or J or maybe make him feel his 9 was good if he had that. I guess his check on the turn is quite strong as I expected him to lead out to steal following my check on the flop. This is why I checked behind because I suspect he could now be ahead. I didn't really understand his bet on the river and it just seemed weak so I thought I could nick it. It's always easier in hindsight for me to say bet the flop but with QQ i dont think checking back is horrible. When he bet 2k on the river how often do you think he does this without an ace or king? Just trying to decipher whether there is any merit just calling here. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: MANTIS01 on January 14, 2009, 01:12:37 PM If you raised pre with A-10 what would you do on the flop when it was checked to you? Against this oppo. I think I check giving him a chance to do a few chips on the turn. Obviously the King wouldn't be a scare card for me in this situation so I would bet the turn when it was checked to me. I may also bet to make it look like a c bet rep of the ace hoping for a raise out of him which would be highly likely. It's difficult to answer this but looking back at the situation I think I check. Thinking about it now I should probably bet the flop hoping for a raise anyway. I didn't put him on the ace from the outset so if I do get the raise I'm hoping for I can just shove my QQ. Problem here is that with 2 cards to come there's no FE against weak aces if he happens to have one. OK bud, well if you had the Ace you say you would either c-bet the flop or bet the turn. With the Q-Q you check the flop and check the turn...and then represent on the river. So you can see a big clue there for your savvy oppo. You said that you weren't careful enough playing this hand, but I reckon you were too careful, maybe because you rate villain. I would play the Q-Q just like an A-10. Would I be wary of the raise from oop villain if I bet the flop with A-10? No. So I can't really not c-bet in case that situation develops...because it probably wont. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: EvilPie on January 14, 2009, 01:32:37 PM If you raised pre with A-10 what would you do on the flop when it was checked to you? Against this oppo. I think I check giving him a chance to do a few chips on the turn. Obviously the King wouldn't be a scare card for me in this situation so I would bet the turn when it was checked to me. I may also bet to make it look like a c bet rep of the ace hoping for a raise out of him which would be highly likely. It's difficult to answer this but looking back at the situation I think I check. Thinking about it now I should probably bet the flop hoping for a raise anyway. I didn't put him on the ace from the outset so if I do get the raise I'm hoping for I can just shove my QQ. Problem here is that with 2 cards to come there's no FE against weak aces if he happens to have one. OK bud, well if you had the Ace you say you would either c-bet the flop or bet the turn. With the Q-Q you check the flop and check the turn...and then represent on the river. So you can see a big clue there for your savvy oppo. You said that you weren't careful enough playing this hand, but I reckon you were too careful, maybe because you rate villain. I would play the Q-Q just like an A-10. Would I be wary of the raise from oop villain if I bet the flop with A-10? No. So I can't really not c-bet in case that situation develops...because it probably wont. Yeah this is pretty much how I was thinking afterwards. I couldn't figure out how he makes the call but then when I work the hand through it doesn't really look like I've got the ace. If I'm deeper stacked here I definitely play the QQ stronger and lead out on the flop. Saying that though I also prolly check with the ace to try to trap. I guess I need to strengthen up my short game a bit. This was very much an oppo dependant hand and I think I muffed it tbh. I thought that the move on the end was good but looking back it's not too difficult a call especially given his stack size. Appreciating the input mate. Ta. Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: MC on January 14, 2009, 06:04:34 PM What is confusing is the check on the turn. I'd only expect him to do this strong if the King improved him. I dunno, either he has 2 pair or possible set, or he has air. But I guess it's much more likely he's strong in this spot, and you should probably muck. I can see why your radar was buzzing on this one though... lol shows you why I should read the whole thread, didn't realise you turned it around my bad. Looks like you'd have got your bluff through me! But it was a suspicious one so understand his call... Title: Re: What the hell has he got?? Post by: EvilPie on January 15, 2009, 03:03:09 PM What is confusing is the check on the turn. I'd only expect him to do this strong if the King improved him. I dunno, either he has 2 pair or possible set, or he has air. But I guess it's much more likely he's strong in this spot, and you should probably muck. I can see why your radar was buzzing on this one though... lol shows you why I should read the whole thread, didn't realise you turned it around my bad. Looks like you'd have got your bluff through me! But it was a suspicious one so understand his call... tbh I was pleased you'd not read the whole thread. This was just the sort of input I was looking for at first. I just wanted to know what he could be putting me on and turning it round seemed the best way to find out. Cheers. |