blonde poker forum

Thought I would post this one up, mainly because I enjoy abuse from Flushy

£300 side event in Walsall, blinds 100 200. My stack is 6200.

Sam (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1429) Trickett (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1429) playing about 15k opens in the HJ to 600, James (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=183) Akenhead (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=183) calls in the CO (playing about 10k) and I call on the button with K9ss. Flop comes Qs 2s 2h, Sam bets 1k, James calls, I call. Turn 6d, all check, river is Js completing my flush. Sam bets 3,100, James folds. I've got 4,600. Sam is obviously a very good player, and someone I have a fun history with, including stacking off with A9 in the grand final last year AIPF :)

I folded, and Sam showed a pair of 3h 3c, having turned his hand into a bluff and said "I was probably winning anyway, right?"

Just wondered if anyone would share my thought process in this hand, which I'll post up later

You folded a king high flush?  Not sure why you called preflop and the flop bet if you are folding when you actually make what you hope to get.

i think calling pre is pretty bad here.  i dont think it will show a profit even vs bad oppos let alone 2 v solid regs.
if id flatted pre, id prefer you to raise + get it in on that flop rather than peeling.
and i cant even fold 1 pair when i get to a river card, so id have a good run trying to fold a flush.

I agree with this part for sure, and fold pre would be my usual as am not deep enough to take advantage of my position. Think I was getting a bit caught up in the quality table banter :(

Do you fold if the A spades comes?

Lol i lose concentration sometimes if there's lots of banter...

The call pre wouldn't be so bad a little deeper, but for 10% of your stack I don't like it.

You have to shove the flop once you've called really, and Flushy is really gonna give you some for that river pass lol. Flat calling might even be bad here!

Would be tougher

Again, agree preflop, not doubting that

On the flop raise/get it in is much more standard I agree, but I didn't feel that Sam is c-betting this flop without a decent piece of it, as it's so unlikely me and James are both going to just be folding to him. Given the history I have vs Sam I also felt he was never going to pass to me here, that's why I opted to just call. If the pot was headsup, or if it was a weaker player in between us, I would probably get it in as his range would be wider

I think the fact the shove would leave Sam with a player behind him means he's folding more hands that you're glad to see go, 99-JJ and even QJ. Admitedly AA, KK, KQ (and QQ!) have us in bad shape and they are all plausible hands. But his betting range is much wider than this. James is rarely going to have a deuce here, and the only other monster is QQ.

I think the only hand you are losing to on the river is an ace high flush and possibly Jacks. I think with a boat, they would both bet the turn. If he has the flush, it's just a cooler...

Reverse implied odds of calling this hand are too great vs Sam and James here. I don't like squeezing here either as you know Sam may be happy to get it in light with you because of your history. Just fold and pick a better spot imo.

Has Sam been opening a lot or has that been difficult with you and James behind him? I'm assuming he has been pretty active anyway so can't see myself folding to his river bet here as what's he trying to rep bar an Ace high flush that you don't beat?

As played, I much prefer getting it in on the flop though as even if Sam calls you a little light here with pairs/hero calls you're in decent shape and he's prob folding a lot of the time too.

I've just moved to the table within the last 5 hands. This is the 1st pot Sam has opened in that time, but he has a good stack so am not sure how he's been playing tbh

I'm guessing that you thought your hand must look like exactly what is.. and that Sam obviously knowing this wouldn't value bet a worse hand on the river??

Dont you think though that if he puts you on the hand you got or similar  (maybe 89/67ss) etc..and the fact he knows you obv capable of folding a big hand it would make more sense for him to check the nuts and let you value bet yourself...if he actually had it ??

I doubt Sam thought Karl's hand was as strong as a flush

You dont think it makes up a fair chunk of his over calling range on flop?

You could be right though.. I probs over thinking it

It does look like the overcall is a flush draw but I'm guessing because of this history that Karl talks about vs Sam thinks Karl's range is probably a fair bit wider than most ppl's there.

I can't imagine Sam putting Karl on a flush and then thinking he could make him pass his hand given their dynamic but then Sam and Karl are both much beter players than I am so what do I know!?

I think Sam was putting Karl on a kinda marginal hand like a small pp and thought he could make him fold it.

Yeah you probs right.. think I was getting carried away lol.... interesting to see what karls thoughts were tho

Sam doesn't think Karl has a flush, surely Karl would jam the flop with a flush draw, so the over call looks nothing like a FD, a mid PP maybe not a FD.

Obv this hand is a fold pre, a raise post and a call/jam on the river.

Infact i have no idea what you were thinking when you passed this?!!?

fair enough, looks like u were spot on greek

Yeah but these days Flushy just copies what I write on here anyway. :P

I'm interested to know what you can put Sam on for him to not fire a second bullet on the turn.

He's out of position so no point getting trappy with a full house. If he's got a set he's likely to protect it or pot build with another bet.

I can't even see why he checks with the nut flush draw here giving him the chance to bluff if misses the river by repping the made hand.

I'm not saying that I'd put him on 33 but I definitely can't see anything he could have that's beating you.

Obviously your history with him may be an issue here but I think you need to be careful not to let that affect you too much if you're laying down here.

I don't think Sam needs to stop and put Karl on any specific hand does he? He simply knows his only chance to win the pot is betting out. So he bets out. I would say this guy looks down at his 3-3...looks at the texture of the board...thinks how strong he's gonna look if he bets into 2 live oppos on that river, and just bets. Most importantly...he is really liking the bet out option with 3-3 cos his oppos fold king flushes here. Really no need to put people on hands if they fold king flushes in this situation. I think Sam plays this v simple and it's the right strat too, cos Karl's been too complex in his thinking...prob as anticipated by his oppo.

FML.

Time to come clean. I mis-posted the result but for the right reasons. Sam in fact was holding As 10s

I didn't post this to start with as the discussion wouldn't have been half as interesting, and not posting a result at all would have people just saying it's an easy call or be obvious that I was going to be beat as it wouldn't be a very interesting story if I called and was good would it...

Ignoring the accepted fact that pre-flop should be a fold...as stated I didn't like the jam on the flop because I felt Sam had to have something to c-bet into me and James, and that whatever this something was he wasn't going to fold it to me.

When we get to the river, Sam quickly bets 3100. When I tried to come up with a range of hands Sam would take this line with, I wasn't fairing too well. In my eyes he has to have a flush at minimum. What sense does it make to bet the river into 2 people who have called you on the flop when the flush hits, if you don't have at least a flush yourself? Of course there are some flushes that I beat but the K, Q, J and 9 are all accounted for. On top of this the board is already paired. Even a small flush might fear being outpipped behind him given the action, and whilst they would still bet the river I fancied Sam may take slightly longer to determine his bet size with these hands.

Of course Sam's hand doesn't determine whether this is a good or a bad call, hence this post shouldn't change anyone's previously posted opinion. Flushy has already labelled it the worst fold he's ever seen, an award of which I am quite proud. These live players are so tez imo.

I have a headache.

sigh, bragaments.

betting out with 3-3 would be skillz

Rather just a massive level to ensure people try to bluff their chips off to me tomorrow :D

I was praying this was true.

Dont get why u bother playing £300 comps? I mean its $450. Surely just play online and win 3x 1st place in a night instead?

Im loving this thread.

Nice post Karl.  Hope your on the opposite end of the cardroom from me tomorrow (meaning I'll now probably be sat to your right)

sigh, bragaments

this post is class, just shows how ridiculously easy it is with hindsight.

Knew he should of checked the river ;)

Going back to what T_Mar said. Considering every boat calls and the K flush folds is this actually a plain bad v bet from Sam?

I still don't know what's going on here but if Sam had A 10 spades then you made the correct pass.

It doesn't mean that long term this is a good pass. You are more likely to be winning here than losing imo.

If you always pass such a strong holding given this betting pattern then surely long term you are -EV.

Yes you got it right but I still think you should have been coolered here and lost 3100 more chips.

What was your reasoning behind the pass? I would guess against most players you make the call here? This is obviously a pass based on your opponent and how he plays specifically against yourself but I'm curious to know what triggered the pass.

Was there something he said or did earlier in the hand that gave you a clue?

It's only an official hero fold if you have sound reasoning to back it up. "I just had a feeling" will not suffice btw.

So so unlikely Karl has a boat unless he flopped quads that Sam can pretty much rule that one out.

As Karl said in one of his posts, himself and Sam have some history hence Karl once stacking off to Sam with A9 so I don't think this is a bad bet as Sam may expect a call from Karl here with a wider range than what would normally call on this river. I'm sure if Sam thought Karl had the king high flush he would have got out of his seat, picked up Karl's chips and put them in his stack without the need to bet as he definitely wouldn't expect Karl to lay down his hand given their history. I think the key here is the history between the two players.

I agree with what you say. But that said, it's a pretty funky hand to put up for discussion if the key to the answer is only found in the personal history between the two players. Hand is impossible to discuss for anyone else therefore.

fair point but I know no more of their history than you do apart from Karl's brief mention of it and the fact it made him stack of to Sam really light before.

I just mentioned that this being the case there is more chance to believe Sam might think Karl would call here a bit thin and hence the bet wasn't as bad as suggested.

I did post my reasoning for it previously, namely the fact I thought it was pretty impossible for him to be bluffing in this spot into both of us and the fact that it made no sense to value bet worse hands than a flush on this river, and the confidence, timing and bet sizing that tilted me towards it being nut flush or house. If the bet size relative to my stack was a lot smaller I would probably have made a crying call but with it being for most of my remaining stack I had to be much more disciplined and trust my instincts that I was beat

I do strongly disagree with EvilPie's statement that I'm more likely to be winning here than losing but then I would because I folded

In hindsight Sam and I agreed a check raise on the river would be better from him but obviously things are much easier when you know each others cards

Fold or shove preflop. Imo.

Interesting hand tho.

In hindsight Sam and I agreed a check raise on the river would be better from him but obviously things are much easier when you know each others cards

Nobody knows who's got what when you say "it was pretty impossible for him to be bluffing in this spot into both of us and the fact that it made no sense to value bet worse hands than a flush on this river".

The 3 of you must be such uber nits these days if you only VB Flush+ here.

Start playing poker plz.

Woooooo, I finally made a decent analysis in one of these things!

I still couldn't find a pass a King high flush though, would have to be jack high or lower (accounting for the Q high board and the way the hand played out)

Is your reasoning going to be waffle?

deleted my post (sat affo pub post my apologies) agree very intersting hand but still think the pro,s are over complicating things, and have to get the chips in here v aggro opponents imo

Stick to your online games plz

I think it was a great fold, one I cant make. but there you go, please pass on my best wishes to James & sunny for tomorrow, cheers

Honestly the more i read the more i think the whole thread is a level so you everyone thinks you have the nuts only when you raise.

English only in the cardroom please Mr Dempsey

Shove any two preflop.....

Play worse.

+1

Officially my favourite type of contributor to this particular forum. Every post you make is enlightening us with the gospel of how we must play, and for that we are forever grateful. If poker was as simple as you seem to think from looking at your limited posts, we would all be millionaires by now. Presumably you already are.

Bump

Ha brilliant. Wonder how this Neverbluff fella has got on since

LOL

<3

ROFL.

wiiiiiiiiiiiiii

lolllllll

lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

Had to do it.

Found hanging after the 1st, the double or the triple?

lol  rotflmfao

Well played George.

Bump of the week.

lol excellent

haha, superb bumpage

 ;oopsy;

bump!!

You might have been my inspiration to play live :)

 ;popcorn; ;popcorn; ;popcorn;

love it all.