Hero fold

[Numpty Dumpty]

this post is class, just shows how ridiculously easy it is with hindsight.

[T_Mar]

Time to come clean. I mis-posted the result but for the right reasons. Sam in fact was holding As 10s

I didn't post this to start with as the discussion wouldn't have been half as interesting, and not posting a result at all would have people just saying it's an easy call or be obvious that I was going to be beat as it wouldn't be a very interesting story if I called and was good would it...

Ignoring the accepted fact that pre-flop should be a fold...as stated I didn't like the jam on the flop because I felt Sam had to have something to c-bet into me and James, and that whatever this something was he wasn't going to fold it to me.

When we get to the river, Sam quickly bets 3100. When I tried to come up with a range of hands Sam would take this line with, I wasn't fairing too well. In my eyes he has to have a flush at minimum. What sense does it make to bet the river into 2 people who have called you on the flop when the flush hits, if you don't have at least a flush yourself? Of course there are some flushes that I beat but the K, Q, J and 9 are all accounted for. On top of this the board is already paired. Even a small flush might fear being outpipped behind him given the action, and whilst they would still bet the river I fancied Sam may take slightly longer to determine his bet size with these hands.

Of course Sam's hand doesn't determine whether this is a good or a bad call, hence this post shouldn't change anyone's previously posted opinion. Flushy has already labelled it the worst fold he's ever seen, an award of which I am quite proud. These live players are so tez imo.

Knew he should of checked the river

[MANTIS01]

I'm guessing that you thought your hand must look like exactly what is.. and that Sam obviously knowing this wouldn't value bet a worse hand on the river??

Dont you think though that if he puts you on the hand you got or similar  (maybe 89/67ss) etc..and the fact he knows you obv capable of folding a big hand it would make more sense for him to check the nuts and let you value bet yourself...if he actually had it ??

Going back to what T_Mar said. Considering every boat calls and the K flush folds is this actually a plain bad v bet from Sam?

[EvilPie]

I still don't know what's going on here but if Sam had A 10 spades then you made the correct pass.

It doesn't mean that long term this is a good pass. You are more likely to be winning here than losing imo.

If you always pass such a strong holding given this betting pattern then surely long term you are -EV.

Yes you got it right but I still think you should have been coolered here and lost 3100 more chips.

What was your reasoning behind the pass? I would guess against most players you make the call here? This is obviously a pass based on your opponent and how he plays specifically against yourself but I'm curious to know what triggered the pass.

Was there something he said or did earlier in the hand that gave you a clue?

It's only an official hero fold if you have sound reasoning to back it up. "I just had a feeling" will not suffice btw.

[GreekStein]

I'm guessing that you thought your hand must look like exactly what is.. and that Sam obviously knowing this wouldn't value bet a worse hand on the river??

Dont you think though that if he puts you on the hand you got or similar  (maybe 89/67ss) etc..and the fact he knows you obv capable of folding a big hand it would make more sense for him to check the nuts and let you value bet yourself...if he actually had it ??

Going back to what T_Mar said. Considering every boat calls and the K flush folds is this actually a plain bad v bet from Sam?

So so unlikely Karl has a boat unless he flopped quads that Sam can pretty much rule that one out.

As Karl said in one of his posts, himself and Sam have some history hence Karl once stacking off to Sam with A9 so I don't think this is a bad bet as Sam may expect a call from Karl here with a wider range than what would normally call on this river. I'm sure if Sam thought Karl had the king high flush he would have got out of his seat, picked up Karl's chips and put them in his stack without the need to bet as he definitely wouldn't expect Karl to lay down his hand given their history. I think the key here is the history between the two players.

[MANTIS01]

I'm guessing that you thought your hand must look like exactly what is.. and that Sam obviously knowing this wouldn't value bet a worse hand on the river??

Dont you think though that if he puts you on the hand you got or similar  (maybe 89/67ss) etc..and the fact he knows you obv capable of folding a big hand it would make more sense for him to check the nuts and let you value bet yourself...if he actually had it ??

Going back to what T_Mar said. Considering every boat calls and the K flush folds is this actually a plain bad v bet from Sam?

So so unlikely Karl has a boat unless he flopped quads that Sam can pretty much rule that one out.

As Karl said in one of his posts, himself and Sam have some history hence Karl once stacking off to Sam with A9 so I don't think this is a bad bet as Sam may expect a call from Karl here with a wider range than what would normally call on this river. I'm sure if Sam thought Karl had the king high flush he would have got out of his seat, picked up Karl's chips and put them in his stack without the need to bet as he definitely wouldn't expect Karl to lay down his hand given their history. I think the key here is the history between the two players.

I agree with what you say. But that said, it's a pretty funky hand to put up for discussion if the key to the answer is only found in the personal history between the two players. Hand is impossible to discuss for anyone else therefore.

[GreekStein]

I'm guessing that you thought your hand must look like exactly what is.. and that Sam obviously knowing this wouldn't value bet a worse hand on the river??

Dont you think though that if he puts you on the hand you got or similar  (maybe 89/67ss) etc..and the fact he knows you obv capable of folding a big hand it would make more sense for him to check the nuts and let you value bet yourself...if he actually had it ??

Going back to what T_Mar said. Considering every boat calls and the K flush folds is this actually a plain bad v bet from Sam?

So so unlikely Karl has a boat unless he flopped quads that Sam can pretty much rule that one out.

As Karl said in one of his posts, himself and Sam have some history hence Karl once stacking off to Sam with A9 so I don't think this is a bad bet as Sam may expect a call from Karl here with a wider range than what would normally call on this river. I'm sure if Sam thought Karl had the king high flush he would have got out of his seat, picked up Karl's chips and put them in his stack without the need to bet as he definitely wouldn't expect Karl to lay down his hand given their history. I think the key here is the history between the two players.

I agree with what you say. But that said, it's a pretty funky hand to put up for discussion if the key to the answer is only found in the personal history between the two players. Hand is impossible to discuss for anyone else therefore.

fair point but I know no more of their history than you do apart from Karl's brief mention of it and the fact it made him stack of to Sam really light before.

I just mentioned that this being the case there is more chance to believe Sam might think Karl would call here a bit thin and hence the bet wasn't as bad as suggested.

[Dry em]

I'm guessing that you thought your hand must look like exactly what is.. and that Sam obviously knowing this wouldn't value bet a worse hand on the river??

Dont you think though that if he puts you on the hand you got or similar  (maybe 89/67ss) etc..and the fact he knows you obv capable of folding a big hand it would make more sense for him to check the nuts and let you value bet yourself...if he actually had it ??

Going back to what T_Mar said. Considering every boat calls and the K flush folds is this actually a plain bad v bet from Sam?

So so unlikely Karl has a boat unless he flopped quads that Sam can pretty much rule that one out.

As Karl said in one of his posts, himself and Sam have some history hence Karl once stacking off to Sam with A9 so I don't think this is a bad bet as Sam may expect a call from Karl here with a wider range than what would normally call on this river. I'm sure if Sam thought Karl had the king high flush he would have got out of his seat, picked up Karl's chips and put them in his stack without the need to bet as he definitely wouldn't expect Karl to lay down his hand given their history. I think the key here is the history between the two players.

I agree with what you say. But that said, it's a pretty funky hand to put up for discussion if the key to the answer is only found in the personal history between the two players. Hand is impossible to discuss for anyone else therefore.

I did post my reasoning for it previously, namely the fact I thought it was pretty impossible for him to be bluffing in this spot into both of us and the fact that it made no sense to value bet worse hands than a flush on this river, and the confidence, timing and bet sizing that tilted me towards it being nut flush or house. If the bet size relative to my stack was a lot smaller I would probably have made a crying call but with it being for most of my remaining stack I had to be much more disciplined and trust my instincts that I was beat

I do strongly disagree with EvilPie's statement that I'm more likely to be winning here than losing but then I would because I folded

In hindsight Sam and I agreed a check raise on the river would be better from him but obviously things are much easier when you know each others cards

[The Camel]

Fold or shove preflop. Imo.

Interesting hand tho.

[MANTIS01]

In hindsight Sam and I agreed a check raise on the river would be better from him but obviously things are much easier when you know each others cards

Nobody knows who's got what when you say "it was pretty impossible for him to be bluffing in this spot into both of us and the fact that it made no sense to value bet worse hands than a flush on this river".

[Royal Flush]

The 3 of you must be such uber nits these days if you only VB Flush+ here.

Start playing poker plz.

[MC]

I think the only hand you are losing to on the river is an ace high flush and possibly Jacks. I think with a boat, they would both bet the turn. If he has the flush, it's just a cooler...

Woooooo, I finally made a decent analysis in one of these things!

I still couldn't find a pass a King high flush though, would have to be jack high or lower (accounting for the Q high board and the way the hand played out)

[MANTIS01]

If this thread is a level then sry i,ve been whooshed, tbh read the 1st page posts did,nt bother with the rest of the waffling/reasoning,chips in fist pump if i,m beat then bad luck, fold not in a million, will post reasonings tomorrow

Is your reasoning going to be waffle?

[ad010]

If this thread is a level then sry i,ve been whooshed, tbh read the 1st page posts did,nt bother with the rest of the waffling/reasoning,chips in fist pump if i,m beat then bad luck, fold not in a million, will post reasonings tomorrow

Is your reasoning going to be waffle?

deleted my post (sat affo pub post my apologies) agree very intersting hand but still think the pro,s are over complicating things, and have to get the chips in here v aggro opponents imo

[Dry em]

The 3 of you must be such uber nits these days if you only VB Flush+ here.

Start playing poker plz.

Stick to your online games plz