blonde poker forum

I have just had a read through these Tournament Director's Association rules.

I had not heard about them until Craig from Sheffield mentioned that they are now in force there.

Well they are IMO excellent, and cover virtually everything.

What is stopping everyone using this model ?

Nottingham Gala would improve immensely by adopting the TDA rules,
especially when the BB moves to the worst seat available.

Although there could be a problem interpreting "a hand is in play after the first riffle"
as some of the dealers do not know how to riffle !

I see these TDA rules as a real opportunity to formally unify all rulings in all cardrooms.

I agree Ralph, they are excellent.

They are bring freely adopted in mainland Europe, less so in the UK. I think Blackpool use some, but not all, of them. Most Thomas Kremser run Festivals use them.

"What is stopping everyone using these"? you ask. Nothing. Except, that is, the fact that Poker has not organised itself, & has no real Association, Governing Body, or Structure, & seems determined to remain fragmented.

It would be a boon to the Casinos, because it would remove from them the onerous responsibility of making their own rulings & being kicked in the goolies when folks don't like the rulings. The Casinos get it in the necks because we don't like the Prize Structures, but who's fault is that? Ours! It's our money so we ought to have set up a body that told the Casinos how WE want OUR money to be paid to US. But in the absence of such a body, we ought to be thankful that the Casinos retain an interest. But unless we get our house in order, the Casinos will eventuallty tire of the anarchy of poker, & they will give over the space they currently dedicate to poker to slots or other more reliable & predictable income flows.

I have had a look at something called the "International Poker Association". After much thought, I cannot convince myself that this organisation is the right vehicle to take us forward. Consider their take on "Membership Levels" - "....... The IPA understands how imperative it is that they offer different membership levels to acknowledge the various accomplishments of professionals, recreational players, as well as students of the game of poker.....". Then take a look at their Steering Committee. Charlie Shoten. David Chiu. Harley Hall. Jesse Jones. John Cernuto. Kenna James. Mark Gregorich. Maureen Brooks. Pete Costa. Roxenne Rhodes. Stan Goldstein.

Note the thin European presence. Note the lack of "regular guys". Whose interests do you imagine THAT bunch of guys & gals will be looking after?

This may be the way to go, but I cant agree that "differing Membership levels" will ever be right. The little guy - & there are LOTS more of us "little guys" in poker than big names - we need looking after too. We are entitled to at LEAST an equal voice. And, though it may come as a shock to America, poker exists in the rest of the world, too.

Food for thought, though.....

And here's a link to some IPA material. The more I read it, the less I like it, for the reasons I gave above. But the fundamental aims & goals are about right.

http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/pokerblog/archives/000396.php

How about doing something about it yourself Tikay?
What about the blondepoker governing body?
What an undertaking it would be though!!
How would it be funded? golf takes a prize money percentage but they do decide who plays in the first place!
As you said earlier about casinos and space, if you start telling them what to do will they allow it?
Do you mean just rules or do you include running festivals, big events etc?
I think some sort of organisation is necessary but where do you start, how far do you go, how far can you go?
I'd like to know just what people actually would want from a governing body.
Ian

There was a European players association a few years back.

Tom Gibson was involved and I will ask him to post something here
.
I'm sure he will give some useful insights into the pitfalls and relative benefits,
although I believe their association was more to do with European rankings etc.

Wow, talk about a loaded question..... I will answer it later, but be warned, it may be heavy reading!

But I WILL answer your first question now - "how about doing something about it yourself Tikay?"

I already am Ian - I am agitating for it, nudging folks to think about it, trying to warn them of the organisational void that Poker has found itself in. Eventually, the penny will drop. But I think your question was really why does Tikay not actually DO something about it, rather than just talk about it. That's an easy one. I simply dont have the "presence", the experience, the depth of knowlege of the poker world that is necessary. It needs someone with authority, someone who we all trust, & someone who has a blend of business knowledge, orgnisational skill & people skills, all this on top of respect from the Poker Community. That makes for a pretty short short list!

More later. Once I get on my hobby horse, there's no stopping me, eh?

Karabiner/Ralph - please do.

Rankings are the last thng that concern me though, we are reasonably well served in that respect already. I do have one or two minor - & they are minor - reservations on the current ranking system, but let's not muddy the water, that is a collateral issue. I would very much like the Rankings to be more widely publicised, but that aint as easy as you might think! The current Ranking system works OK, so let's worry about more pressing things.

But I'd be interested in Mr Gibson's views on the wider problems.

The jury's out as far as I am concerned on that one Tikay.

But they obviously have some valid points,
although it's direction seems to be more towards marketing and merchandising rather than player's welfare.

What a fascinating discussion, I wish I was clever enough to offer an opinion

mind you Ive never let that stop me before

Agreed Ralph.

And it's the welfare of poker as a WHOLE that concerns me. Players, promotors, venues, casinos, TD's, the whole lot. The last thing we need is a players union banging the table.

so correct me if i am wrong, but are you saying what the game needs is a sort of co-operative governing body incorperating people from the groups that you mention ?

 And do you see it being a purely european organisation or a global one ?

You are not a milion miles away from how I see it Kev, though I don't like the word "co-operative".

Think of Rugby Union & the RFU. British Tennis & the LTA, Then ask yourself how magnificent Twickenham Stadium or All-England Lawn Tennis Club at Wimbledon are, then ask how they found the funds.

Global or European? British will do for starters. Eventually, each country or continent will form their own affiliate, & in due course, they will merge. But that's getting a bit ahead of ourselves!

Although i agree in principal to what you see as the way forward, i cant help but feel that the ego's of some of the "Names" in the poker world would mean that getting everyones backing would be hard to achieve, and as sponsorship becomes more and more prevalent in the game, surely their interests and indeed televisions companies interests will be big hurdles to negotiate.

And providing there is enough interest (and i cant believe that there wouldnt be ) who would decide which individuals are best suited to stand on behalf of the players ?   would all players be polled , from 05/10c internet players to full time pro's ?  logistical nightmare i think, but where theres a will ..etc.

Would be very easy to organise a poll over the Internet. Of course that introduces teh difficulty of catering for those who don't have Internet access.

I disagree Kev. The aim would NOT be to fight ANYBODY, the Governing Body would be there to work WITH & FOR EVERYONE, for Poker as a whole.

Big names not happy? They'd not have a choice. Their SPONSORS would be happy, 'cos they'd have a say. The TV guys ditto. The Venues ditto.

Anyway, I will answer all this later.

I think that maybe the cart is getting ahead of the horse here.

The first step is to get all cardrooms to abide by the same rules.

The TDA rules are the best and most complete that I have seen.

Once everyone is singing from the same hymnsheet, I believe that progress will be a lot easier.

P.S. Big up to Nottm. Gala for adopting TDA's table balancing policy.

what is needed to start this off is every card room in the country to have a meeting at the meeting would be 2-3 players and either the card room manager or a proxy for him/her. also at the meeting could be 1 rep from from each of the online sites (if they wish) we would then have a braod range of views to hammer out how we want the game in this country to go forward.

problem 1 is getting everyone to agree to meet
problem 2 is finding a location to meet, people in around london dont like to go leave london for anything why should they when everything is on there doorstep, people in the north hate traveling to london as its so expensive and would be cheaper for everyone to have it somewhere in the north or midlands.

soultions would to be to have an indepentaly moderated SECURE internet chat, this would entail a toally indepenant chairperson that would insure order was maintain it would have to be secure so only thos invited could gain access to speak (although a case maybe made for railbirds who have no chat priviledges, this could all be set up and done very easy if there was enough will shown by the cardrooms and the players.

wrong once there is an assocition in place it will be easier to get everyone playing by the same rules

what i mean by the last post is that a ruling body dictates the rules of the game

at the moment each casino/chain is its own ruling body so they make the rules

one body one set of rules

that would be a steering group to a governing body not the governeing body itself

Wow, this is GREAT stuff, keep it coming boys.

And it pleases me muchly to say it - Ironside, when the going gets serious, talks a great deal of sense.

Lets hope we get more solid contributions from blondeites. Tell you what, the lil ol blonde Forum is coming along nicely, eh?

Personally I feel that the way forward is to gently persuade cardroom supervisors
who are not already using these TDA rules to adopt them.
Let's face it many of them may not have heard of them.

Generally speaking it would only involve some fine tuning, as most of the rules are in place.

The more cardrooms who adopt the rules, the easier it will be to bring the rest into line.

My feeling is that gentle player-generated persuasion would be more effective than some ruling body
which the casinos may choose not to recognise, trying to tell them what to do.

basically ATM its would be good to try and get the casinos on board with 1 set of rules TDA

but if we get a governing body sorted it would be easy to MAKE them follow the rules

by a simple letter to the gaming commision (infact they should also be invited to the steering group)

The European Poker Players Association ( EPPA) was the brainchild of Mickey Finn. Its aim was to promote poker, mainly tournaments, by establishing Ranking Tournaments, proper Blind/Ante structures, reduced hotel rates and a Ranking Points System which culminated in an annual freeroll event for the leading ranked players.
It was a brave project which achieved many of its objectives. The strength of poker in Europe today can in many respects be traced directly back to initiatives which the EPPA kick-started. Virtually all newcomers to poker today have no idea how uncoordinated and indeed haphazard the scene was in those pre- computer days.
All the founders of the EPPA were enthusiastic players who had to plough completely untilled soil to get their ideas established. Having no idea how successful the EPPA would be they offered a lifetime membership for thirty pounds, thinking  that this would be sufficient to cover their administration costs. Of course it was ridiculously insufficient so when, after a few years of enormous growth in the tournament scene, the EPPA Committee had to introduce an annual membership fee of 30 pounds (  a laughably low amount when you consider the money on offer) they got lots of flak from guys who expected a lifetime supply of circulars, initiatives etc for their initial fee.
One of the big problems any organisation faces is the fact that the poker scene is now composed of so many diverse nationalities , to say nothing about the online scene. Trying to get any sort of agreement from players in Bergen, Belgrade, Moscow and Manchester, for example, is a daunting proposition. Perhaps though the fact that everyone now has access to e-communication may help overcome that problem.
I think that if any new Association is to get off the ground it will need to have a healthy membership in every country where it aims to have influence. It will probably also need a small fulltime staff to handle all the issues which will inevitably arise and for this to happen it will need to be properly funded.
I hope this is helpful to your debate.

A lovely post Tom, thank you for the time you have given to help us air this very important subject.

I don't intend to debate it now, except to say, I particularly like your closing paragraph, identifying as it does the need for each country to get the ball rolling independently before it goes pan-European. For me, the initial target has to be the UK.

One little step at a time is all it needs.

Plenty of folk will tell us why we can NOT do it. I am more interested in hearing & exploring how we CAN do it.

i would suggest that there need to be 2 groups

a governing body to look after the game

and a players association (like the one now defunt) to look after the players intrests

neither could do each others job but both could work well together

There's also the British gaming board to consider, they seem to be constantly changing/introducing rules that have a bearing on casino based poker.
The only real issue to think about right now is funding, would folks pay for this?
As a shop steward i was constantly getting grief from union members that NON members enjoyed the exact same raises/benefits etc as those paying subs, would you pay when others won't?
You can't really involve TV companies/poker sites/casino groups too much because they would inevitably gain influence.
Good stuff!
Ian

The Funding would not be a problem, but I'll explain that another day.

But the Groups you suggest should not be included - I disagree in respect of the Casino Groups. We need them. They MUST be included if it is to work.

I was thinking the only real way would be to add a small rake to certain tourny's/festivals.
The BGB seem a bit indescriminate with their power and don't forget casinos HAVE to abide.
Ian

Well well. The wheels are turning. Before we embrace the all wonderful TDA rules. Yes at first glance they seem good. However.

1. Y would companies use them when they haven't been involved in the process of formulating them?

2. If casino groups did use them would they then be invited by the TDA to meetings where rules are discussed?

3. They are concise but leave many many situations uncovered. Leaving any decision with whomever is in charge. And I know how u all hate inconsistency.

Grosvenor have changed their rules and incorporated a few of the TDA rules, but some rules can't be changed because they are actually there to comply with certain Gaming Board Regulations. Of course the rule changes haven't been enforced or displayed yet due to someone not typing them up and sending them out. Typical Big Casino company mess.


Yogi

To answer Yogi's questions......

1). I see no reason why Casino Groups should refuse to implement TDA Rules (or whoevers) simply because they were not involved in formulting them. It's not the Casino's job to make the rules of how we play poker, they dont want it to be their problem, & nor do we. Lets not forget who's game this is.

2) Nio idea, but theres no reason why they should not be allowed to contribute to the debate, as they have valuable feedback gained from implementing rules on a daily basis.

3). They will be improved with the passage of time & experience. Or we can forget all about the TDA Rules, & formulate another set. It does not matter whose rules we use, so long as we all use the same rules.

?). Where TDA Rules conflict with the Gaming Board Directives, obviously the GB wins. So if a set of largely standard rules are eventully drafted, they may need to be on a country by country basis, to comply with local law. In Denmark, for example, Rebuys & add-ons are not legal. In the UK, you are supposed to be sat down at the start of the tourney. In Austria, you can turn up 2 hours late. These local anomolies cannot be avoided. The law is the law.

Yogi, I feel that any set of tournament rules always has to leave room for the TD's discretion.

If you feel that someone is "angle-shooting" you need the latitude to make a different ruling than for a genuine mistake.

That is always going to be the TD's call

Agreed Karabiner, there is no way round this. And TD's are like referees in football - there are good ones & bad ones, those who know the law precisely, & those with the intelligence to interpret it sensibly.

Paul Jackson - a good pal I might add - pulled a stroke at Luton recently, quite deliberately & with aforethought. He knew the punishment was that his bet would HAVE to stand - exactly as he wanted!

So Simon was, in due course, asked to give a ruling. After pondering it for a few moments, he announced that Paul's actions constituted a moody, and as such, his bet was NOT allowed to stand.

Common Sense by a TD beats rules any day!

I see no reason for casino groups not to implement them either. But that is not my call. I was only asking questions that will come up. I've been to RULES meetings. I know the sort of people that would need convincing. My GOD people can get VERY funny when u question their rules. I am of the same opinion as the majority of people anyway. The basic rules should be uniform across the country and the world. Unfortunately I can't ever see it, too many egos and companies who want to do things their own way. After all to quote someone who will have to remain nameless.

" If they want to play in our clubs then they play by the rules we choose"

I have used this quote, purposely out of the context that it was said. But I am sure that this is the overwhelming attitude from Senior managers in the casino industry.

I hope I'm wrong.

Yogi

Cant believe you havent mentioned my idea here seniore Yogi.

A little off topic i guess but in regards to players and casinos grouping together to have a say in how things go.

An idea i have had for a long time and one i have put forward to be considered here in blackpool is thatw e have our first Player forum.

Very similair to the situation in most proffesional football clubs, where once over a period of time groups of players are invited to a discussion with Supervisors, senior dealers and managment of a particularcardroom in order to discuss any arising problems and work out any possible solutions that could be implemented.
After all both sides have some very interesting ideas that can be oput forward.

I feel this could be a huge step forward in the industry as it gives clubs the chance to gain an advantage of competitiors by producing player friendly setups which will generate more players and more appeal. It will also give players a rare insight into how the cardroom machine operates behinmd the scenes and give them chance to listen to explanations of why certain things that maybe they dont agree with, happen within that club, instead of the usual memo or just being told by soemone how didnt make that executive decision.

I put this forward at my former club about 2 years ago and it wasoverlooked.

But remember if this happens anywhere your all my witnesses that it was MY idea lol and not the great Yogis hehehehe.

Be interesting to hear peoples thoughts on this though.

That's a GREAT idea!

Folks are better able to understand, & more likely to accept situations if they know the reasoning. Why don't you start earlier/later, have more/less freezeouts, accept/not accept people turning up late for comps da de da de da.

Tremendous idea. You sure it was your idea? - I think Ironsode will claim this one.....

The reason I din't mention it is so you could have all the credit.

For too long now I've been using your skills and taking all the credit.

Thought it was time to come clean

HEHEHEHEHE

Yogi

I've been using TDA rules for a few years, and they are very good, but you just have to adapt them
to European cardrooms which isn't hard to do, just a pain in the bum  :o