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This hand has been playing on my mind since Tuesday so opinions welcome...

£50 DEEPSTACK FREEZEOUT with 15,000 starting chips. My table has just been broken and we are now down to 2 tables from an initial 55 runners. I arrive at my new table and am happy to find myself straight in on the button with 50k and one of the bigger stacks in play. Blinds are 400/800.

UTG has me well covered with about 80k. Never played with him before but my fist impression was he looked like a solid player. Folded around to me on the button and I look down to see A-Jos. What's your line here?

Personally I limped behind because I wanted to feel my way onto the table by playing a controlled pot vs unknown big stack villain. Do people raise here anyway regardless of these factors?

sb mucks, bb raps the table and we're off to the flop.

 3h 7h Js

bb checks. UTG very methodically bets 2k. I dwell up considering whether I want to call or raise this dude. I decide to call to see what he does on the turn, mainly because I've chosen to play this hand smallball and those pre-flop factors were still valid. I'm thinking...if he checks the turn I'll take it off him...and if he bets worse again then I'll just call better again...and if I'm beat then smoothing his bets is saving me money. So all sorted then. Again, does anyone want to raise here and now? If so pls give reasons.

However, before we can get to the turn the bb pushes all-in for about 8k. UTG once again very methodically considers his options. At the same time I'm considering mine. Obv if UTG folds I snap the bb for 6k more. I have also decided that if UTG calls the jam I'm gonna jam myself over the top. Any thoughts about that strat?

As it is UTG raises another 10k on top. How much do you like your hand now? What should you do and why?

1. I deffo raise pre. You have a good hand on the button with a sizeable stack. I'd also wanna play this hand heads up with position. If he re pops you, you can easily fold and give up the 3k or so you've raised to

As played I like the smooth call on the flop. I don't think there's much point in raising for value without any info on UTG and his range here- you're spewing more chips here then you would have pre flop.

The problem you have now is that your hand is under repped. Villian in the BB could easily have a draw here and utg could have top pair shit kicker and think he's good. QJ, KJ etc etc. You have shown absoloutely no strength so far so why would u call 10k?

I think if you wanna continue with your strat you should fold but raise pre next time imo.

UTG has limped for 800 right, assumed from the post though you don't say

I make it 3,200 on the button. The factors that you don't know the oppo hold less relvance to me that you've got good position and a chance to take control of the pot. If he then limp re-raises well then fine give up, at least its saved you awkward decisions down the line by merely calling, and you also get rid of the blinds most of the time who by calling you let in with any two

as played I don't mind your thinking in response to the 2k bet, its consistent with your pre-flop strategy and you don't want to inflate the pot

Once the bb c/r's to 8k and UTG makes it 18k I'm out of there fast

I'd call the bb 8k if it was heads up by the time it got back to you but its not. UTG I am thinking overpair by now

With regard to your "jam over an UTG call of the 8k" strat, i'd want more info on UTG to be considering that.

I think you should be raising pre to gain info and to avoid incredibly difficult spots like the one you found yourself in. You may have the best hand here but you haven't got any information to confirm this so you should fold. You would think one of them has at least a flush draw or 2 pair and so you are either a small favourite or way behind. Dream scenario is you have them both dominated but that won't happen enough to justify a call imo.

You have to pass now, you could've raised pre but tbh I don't mind how you've played the hand...

I have to say, this bit is a little wierd and has me thinking now. If he wanted you in surely he just flats and if he wants to keep you out surely he shoves ?

But a 10k raise ? Can we force him to fold here by shoving ? I think we might and a shove here could be an excellent play. Very tricky. I still think the fold is standard but I wouldn't blame you for pushing here believing we can make UTG fold.

If all of this had happened preflop after a raise from the button, you would have had an easy choice, and it would have cost the same. Not everyone plays UTG "correctly", he may be limping because he has a "weak" hand like pocket 3,  Ahrt  6h etc. and wants to see the cheap flop you've allowed him. BB prob has 2 pair, or top pair weak kicker. maybe even Flush draw (but not nut flush draw) and if UTG has nut flush draw he will reraise to get heads up with BB if he thinks theres any chance in hell he's ahead....

No shame in folding AJo pre in my books aswell if you want to get a feel for the table....

I think pre-flop your play is a 'little bit weak', post flop its a 'little bit weak', but the irony is its probably actually saved you money!

Fold now...  :)

If you push here UTG has to call 29k to win 53k. He has 60k at this point so would have 30k left if he loses. I think he calls here with quite a lot so not sure this play would work and he may have you crushed so think you can find better spots and should fold.

on a j73 board
the guy limped utg

this
i think u have to fold unless u have history with him.

Yeah i think this has to be a fold, but it is a very interesting spot.

FWIW i think you have the BB beat unless he has got lucky and flopped two pair, but i think he can shove here with such a wide range your normally ahead, he could easily be thinking, that flops a mess, utg is taking a stab with overs, you have shown no strength, ill have a go at squeezing. Adding aroung 60% to his stack if it gets through.

Im tempted to say that UTG has 10 10, but only because i cant work out what he is doing with his reraise.
You havent shown much strength so i dont think he wanting a call really. If he was strong would he not wait for the turn to build the pot. If not then  Ahrt Kh or  Ahrt Qh?

Will be interested to know the outcome as I dont normally post on here because I normally make a mess of these tricky spots, and would like to know if ive just made a mess of this one!

Some top quality posts. UTG did limp, sorry about that.


As for this. I agree 100% with the 1st part. At the previous table I was reading my oppos well and just steadily increasing my chip count. So I land at this new table and i'm suddenly in the dark info wise. Hate that table move when you're playing well. But that's the reason I sat on the fence and called. That was deffo a mistake.

The 2nd part I disagree with 100%...maybe. I underrep my hand vs the big stack aggressor from UTG. I like that. He can carry on burning chips into me with a worse hand imo. And he may well do that with a big stack and a drawing board. If he's got an over-pair he never folds, but may slow down on a heart turn. So the strat works both ways. I held the Ah btw. Considering my stack a raise would only get him folding worse imo. And I wasn't feeling week at this point at all.

I didn't consider the fecking bb so much though, maybe cos he had no chips. But it really changed the dynamics of the hand when he got involved. And also messed up my start.

Nothing wrong with your hand being under repped- just leads to these tricky spots and perhaps playing a bigger pot then you want to without much info

i think this is definitely a pass. theres no need to be trying to turn your AJ into a bluff here either (you said you wanted to take it on the turn, someone else said we can now make him pass). imo his line screams overpairs or sets. bb has top pair/2pair if he's any good.

i quite like your line, but i dont like the things you were planning to do if the action changed! once you've called pre we're not looking to get it all in with just top pair. a lot of you have said that his hand is underrepped but if he starts getting lots of chips in it looks more like a set or a draw than top pair - just play it smallball. and as i said at the beginning, i think its a pass now

I share your thoughts about what his line looks like. But that's now he's raised the bb's jam. There's a healthy 15k pot in the middle when he decides what to do next...and raising to get HU with the bb to play for a 21k pot is a credible strat with those hands. Would he smooth call that bet with an over-pair or a set after taking the lead though? I felt the pot was big enough that he wouldn't want to do that. So if he did that I was going to push. Cos if I only called there would be almost 30k in the pot and 40k left in my stack with a hand that was pretty vulnerable, so calling seemed rather pointless.

i like how you played it all (including the overlimp) and this is a clear fold now.

I would always raise pre due to how deep you are... Not doing so leads you to probs now imo

Again because of how deep you are, when he leads on the flop I dont mind a raise, you will get value from worse J's and FD's, by playing passively you going to lose value from the hands you potentially dominate and set yourself more headaches when he double or triple barrels... If he calls then he will give you a better idea of his hand with his turn action, if he comes back over the top you can dump (based on your read of him being solid, i am presuming you mean he's not over aggro in which case his bet/3-bet range is going to be pretty tight I would think??)

Re his iso raise after the bb jams... tough spot, not sure what is best.. probs a fold but dont like how you go there tbh

i think theres a reasonable chance that he's got a set if he flats the BB. more likely than an overpair anyway. even if he flats the BB i think we should be passing. what are you hoping for? get it in against a straight draw and a flush draw? imo you're a long way behind at least one of these guys

Again because of how deep you are, when he leads on the flop I dont mind a raise, you will get value from worse J's and FD's,

How can you distinguish between getting value from worse J's/Fd's and giving value to sets/over-pairs if you raise the flop? Let's say he has a worse J, do you not agree that worse J can easily fold if I raise but that worse J can also easily bet the turn if he decides I'm the one on a FD. How do you play the turn if he calls the raise?

i agree with this, once you've flatted pre i think we have to play this smallball given the stacks involved. the reason for limping is that you're in position and have the power to do this

Re written this  3 times lol, I dont like any of my answers so far, which probs says something in itself!

ok thinking about some more, I much prefer the flat.. pot is being inflated unneccessarily by raising - agree! .. and can still get some value when he barrels worse j's, just we keeping the pot more manageable

Still raise pre though ;)

btw.. where you playing £50fo with 15k starting chips ?? Sounds fun!

I still like the raise pre cos of how deep you are.

Deffo agree you have to fold now- however I can see him making this move with a worse jack (esp. in a 50 freeze)

FWIW if he had flatted the shove do you flat behind, jam or fold?

Grosvenor Walsall, I believe...

Yeah, Grosvenor Walsall 3 x 5000 triple chance freezeout. Fun tournament and the standard's pretty good on the whole.

I was almost certain the guy was going to call the bb's jam and i'd already decided to push if he did. I think villain calling this is more indicative of a f/d or weak J. Figure over-pairs and sets raise to avoid outdraw risk in a 21k pot, I can't give this guy credit for being super trappy at this stage. So jam and play 27k vs a ss with a wide range imo.

This hand has been bugging me. I have been wondering if the the 10k raise really means set or overpair ?

Surely JJ+ is unlikely leaving only 33 and 77 ? I think I would put in a 10k raise here with 77 with the flush draw on board so I would have to agree. There are many more hands we are infront of here though and so folding to his raise must be exploitable. If be doesn't have AJ beat here you have to say utg played it very well.

Just me biting here then....!

hmmmm, i dont like this mate, unusually i think you are kinda bracketing your opponent here (u normal no.1 people person poster in pha imo). Ur hoping hes not smart enough to be tricky. Also ur hoping he doenst have an overpair and didnt just think ill see what the other huge stack does in this multiway coup 1st, or failing that, didnt realise the 4b isolate on the flop was a viable option (like he has KK, CALL!).

be honest, have you ever folded AJ pre? :)

hope you are well fish, when is the u v mike thing again? i could use a laugh seeing butlin get spanked!!!

RESULT:

After some deliberation I decided to muck the A-J. I find the frequency of bluffing is reduced when a man is all-in and his line looked like an over-pair or a set imo. UTG villain tabled  7s 8s for middle pair....and bb villain showed J-x to scoop a nice 21k pot and keep him in the tournament.

Now UTG villain took a lot of stick from the other players at the table (not from me) for this play, because of course I send bb packing with the A-J if I don't get pushed out. Attempting to justify his strat to the critics UTG said he put me on a FD 100% and was protecting his hand from being outdrawn. Comments on this? One thing I did take from this hand was flat-calling his flop bet was a good idea...and if bb villain had gone away, UTG with this mentality, certainly double barrels a non-heart turn. I was happy that most of you agreed fold though.

I did allude to the fact that in a 50 quid comp that he wouls be protecting QJ, KJ possibily even J10 etc etc cos your hand is under repped. This is why at this level of buy I like the raise pre.

As played I think you still have to fold and I don't mind your line. For me tho, I like raising here on the button with AJ. In fact I am probably raising with most hands from the button if I'm playing my button

Not unraised on the button!  :)

It was last week and Mike cried off injured.  Still ripe for abuse...

[  ] He has paid up the £100

I think his raise on the flop pushing you out was an excellent play but not for the reasons he made it. He made his middle pair look exceptionally strong and managed to get you to fold the best hand. If he has you on a flush draw then what does he think BB has ? I don't like his play with the cards he was holding but I do think this is a very interesting hand for analysis.