blonde poker forum

Little background to the hand. We're in the money of the £300 at the Big Slick Club on day 2. There's 1,900,000 in play and blinds are 2,000/4,000 with an ante. 18th-10th pays £300 (stupid for a tourney with 103 runners imo).

Villain is chipleader. His name is Martin Bader and all I know is he won an EPT 12 years ago. (Not that this should mean I view him as brilliant - even Surinder Sunar won an EPT back in the day!). He's been the most aggro player on the table and has about 475,000. I'm second in chips with 14 left and 390,000. Villain is opening the most pots and I'm directly on his left. I'm generally opening pots when he passes. I've not shown down much and he probably views me as very capable and quite aggro but won't get stupidly out of line.

I'll post the hand in stages a la George2Loose and Blatch.

It folds all the way round to him on the button and he opens to 14,500. I look down at AQ in the SB.

We?

33k

re raise to 45k if he shoves then you fold

pass, hand has little value oop against a strong stack and competent player. If you arnt both at the top of the tree chip wise I play it differently.

if you're gonna do that then better to make it 33k and fold.

then again your out of position vs him if the board come down  9 high what are you going to do??

huh? pls dont say you're telling me to pass pre to his button open

My question was more along the lines of (a) is there any merit in flatting here (b) how much do we 3-bet to?

you can't flat call you will never find out where you stand raise to 45k and 99% of the time he folds

Sunar won a WPT :)

I flat here- bit nitty but from what I can see if we 3 bet and he 4 bets it's a horrible spot. If he flats your three bet your playing a much bigger pot OOP

AQo or AQs ? I'd be more inclined to gamble preflop with AQs.

Calling and look to check/raise most flops looks like a good line to me. I don't like passing here because you need to make him think twice about constantly raising your blinds. If you hit the pot hard lead out looking for him to raise you. If you miss and he re-pops your check/raise give it up.

but if you flat call and it comes 9high what do you do then??? you don't have a clue where you stand,

imo raise to 40K. Its large enough to let him know you have a decent hand and to hoefully remove curiousity of him seeing a flop, if he comes back over the top, well you'll just have to let it go.

You play a flop? If we 3 bet and he raises pre it doesn't necessarily tell us anything either. What if you 3 bet and he flats and it comes 9 high? I'd prefer to keep the pot small OOP

 you need to raise it pre flop to see if he has a hand  he could easy have 96 here and is making a play and if you raise to 40k he will give it up most hands

if you raise and he calls then check the flob if you miss if you hit put a small bet in and hope he re raises you

I'm gonna be controversial.

I pass pre

Who wants to play oop against the chip leader with a less than premium hand when you are 2nd place with ~100 bigs with 14 left.

Fk that, plenty easier spots to accumulate chips form mid stacks and such as final table bubble approaches.

I'd flat with 78s tho.

How often are we gonna stack him post flop with AQo and 100 bigs. The times we do flop a pair, we are still probably going to pansy fold flop/turn.

All this 3-bet fold piss makes me a little sick. He's gonna trump us with junk half the fookin time, there's likely a reason why he's chip leader, whether LAGshrewd or LAGtarded he's not needing much to push us off here.

Fold pre and be done. no edge here despite pretty cards

If you are going to 3-bet to fold better do it with K4s or some hand with little value. AQ is probably good but OOP I think we want to keep the pot small. Passing is too tight if we have any intentions of winning the thing imo.

So:

1) This guy will never 4 bet bluff with the stack sizes the way they are?

2) He will never flat with an inferior hand?

3) Your always gonna give up on the flop unless you "hit"?

4) If he 4 bets you pre do you ever get it in?

I think that a lot of people talk about playing poker but in all seriousness they're playing their 2 cards. I'm happy to play a flop here as deep as we are

Agree with Tank somewhat that we're not gonna pick up too many chips in this spot but I think fold is even too nitty for me

I'm not playing tight, I'm just not playing AQ

All pocket pairs, big slick, suited connectors (medium and low ones), maybe some suited one gappers I'll play this spot with. They all add up to a decent % of the time.

Just coz we're so deep is all, usually I see an ace and a queen and a hand is in the air.
It's a special situation coz we can't avoid getting spanked post flop. We're both just so fooking deep.

One thing which hasn't been mentioned yet, is how chipped up is the BB, if you just flat is he likely to squeeze ?

I'm playing AJ here. A lot of the time we are in very good shape against his Ax or Kx and this makes up for those times he has AK. This is another reason for trying to keep the pot small. Those hands are unlikely to be able to call a check/raise even with an Ace flops. If the check/raise gets called we can probably give up on the hand unless flop is something like AQQ etc.

bb has played quite tight. In the middle of the pack with 80k or so. Not really a concern. prob just trying to final table

Anything wrong with a flat call here?

is that his standard open 3.5x?

i call, mainly coz i want to disguise my hand against a pretty abcish TAG. I think 3b is fine and against him u can fold to a 4b smash (even though this is horrible he wont ever exploit it i dont think). my experience of him was of a tootight smallball type player, who rarely gets out of line and is fairly mappable, good against bad players).

Folding really is too weak imo, we have 100bb, AQ and a probable skill advantage. Its not like we can only win the pot when we actually flop something......

lol at teh folders.

Flatting is good.

peel peel peel peel peel

We're a bit worried about playing this hand cos villain has chips/is a bit aggro and we're in no rush to jeapordise our good position. If we haven't 3-bet the guy before now it looks like it's a good time to start imo. Because look, WE have chips, WE are a bit aggro and HE shouldn't be in a rush to jeapordise his good position either. If we are considering just folding a hand like A-Q pre because of these factors then a 3-bet puts villain under even more immense pressure to just release his inferior hand. If he wants to call more money into the pot with his worse hand then he is making a mistake. First round to us. Then we go to a flop he prob wont hit with the initiative and all those pressures working for us rather than against us. 

Cos - What are the other players at the table like?

When you open are you getting it through? Have you re popped this guy many a time before? What happened?

If it quite an easy style table id be tempted to flat and then check fold the flop if he fires with me missing.  I dont want to create a big pot OOP when im in a good tourney position with easier chips at the table.

3 bet light to induce 4 bet then 5 bet smash it. Win the tourney right here when he flips JJ .

Ok thanks for responses so far guys.

Here's to part 2 where I made a fucking hash of it all. I don't think I've played a hand this bad in months.

I 3-bet to 42k and he responded by making it 92k. I had no real previous with the guy but he was definitely the most active at the table and he was bluffing a fair bit. It was probably a little too easy for us both to run the table over in turns which I think semi explains my thinking behind why I did what I did next - I wasn't going to let this guy run me over.

Instead of 5-bet smashing or passing which is what I think I should have done I flatted. Still seething as to why I did that but anyway....

Flop comes AJ2

Plan?

good game

this...get your coat and go home...nothing more to do..chips go in now.

Like you said; Flatting his 92k bet is VERY bad.

Pre I prefer to flat but the re-raise is obv fine. (I see Tank's point about just folding it but I just can't have that myself)

Missed the 1st round but i would have flatted and played a small pot

Obv your line is puke worthy - but you shouldnt compound mistakes.

The ONLY hand you are beating is A10 & KK & QQ  - and he doesnt re pop pre with A10

I honestly check fold the flop if he bets.

If it goes ck ck - you need to play cautiously as he can still have AA. I would ck call a turn - and there is no way he bets a river with KK or QQ

You still have 300k behind if you let the hand go - you could claim you had TT if you feel the need to save face?!?!?!??!?!

i guess you ck jammed by your 'tone' in the post and he has AK

It's probably even more puke worthy and he has AJ

There is now way I'm flatting a 95k bet to fold on an A high flop. I think check folding now would be worse than the call of the 4 bet pre.

I think villain's prob done enough to win the pot pre. Now we're in this situation I would lead for 99k.

oopppppppppps...didn't read stack size properly...you have 390k so still 300k back....makes it a bit trickier IMO.

I do check it over to him so he can bet into me.

as played

two decisions

- check, fold to bet, still got 300K left, plenty of time to grow
- allin, you'll be happy to take the 180 odd K, there and then, making you chip leader

I probably choose to push and pass him the decision, if he's got JJ or worse, 22, thats life.

n1, turn AQ into a bluff on AJx.

What do you recommend ? no right or wrong answer is there, just my opinion as played because of the following:

1) potentially he's got a big hand due to the raise, reraise, reraise however its unlikely to be AA, youve got 1 and there's one on the flop, of course its possible but odds against so top pair likely to be good

2) if you check, he's likely to bet at least 3/4 pot which is half your stack, he could do this with KK, QQ, so unlikely you'll call half stack with 1 pair 2nd best kicker, so you could be laying down best hand

3) if you bet potentially 3/4 pot that leaves you with 1/3 stack, what now if reraise all in ?

4) if you push, only going to be called by, AA, JJ, AJ, A2, 22, maybe AK, more times than not your ahead

5) finally, I'm using this board as learning curve and find this situation interesting so I don't mind being totally wrong and looking an idiot currently as long as I pick something up and and take it onboard at the end of it, but thats what I think is the best play at the mo.

Mike fair play for using this board as a learning curve. I think what LeKnave is saying is- what does shoving here achieve? Why are you shoving this flop?

indeed.  open shoving the flop is just going to make him fold every hand we beat and call with every hand that beats us. 

both check calling + check shoving the flop are much better as we have to assume hes going to bet his whole range meaning we get that extra money from when we do have him beat.

Surely all of those hand except A2 and 22 are so much of his range pre along with KK QQ TT

shoving achieves nothing here. you only get called if you are beat. You are prob still top 10 in chips if you can get to a show down.

By pushing you don't pass him a decision. If he has a better hand he will call and if he has a worse hand he will fold. The decision is already made. Do we want worse hands folding?

fair points, totally taken on board.

I have 1 additional point though, please share your thoughts on this.

theres approx 185K in the middle and you have approx 290K behind. By pushing and taking whats in the middle now, you are almost doubling your stack without fear of him catching up should you check and he check behind and be allowed another card on the turn.

sorry 2 points.

Also as played in this scenario, by playing the AQ, what are you looking to hit on the flop if your not going to play now ? If this guy is pretty aggressive I assume that your stack will be put to the test regardless if you bet out here or check and call.

Thanks for quick responses to my previous comments

your first point is answered by the points above - you have no value in the play

as for the 2nd point - the original raise is to 14.5k - not 91k where it ended up!

Just flat and play a small pot. If your opponent has AK - he is unlikely to be able to bet every street for value with the board getting worse for him when you are ck calling every street!

You could play the hand to the river for value for less than the 91k pre which commits you to the pot. If you lose, you los, but you are unlikely to go bust

get what your advising, by allowing the villian to take the lead with the betting on the flop, potentially we will make more chips if AQ is good, I'm still not entirely convinced but do understand the point that is being made.

I'm not entirely convinced because obviously by slow playing we are risking that the villians hand will catch up and also not knowing where we are to another bet but at the same time I do accept completely the point about not putting as many of our chips at risk as only going to get called by better hand.

FWIW my inital suggestion was to raise to 40K and fold if a re-reaise. As played, we must either believe that AQ is good to continue on this flop and if we don't believe its good then the call of the reraise was a bad one.

Interested to see the next step, as this post has certainly got me thinking of what I would do now, and what I really should do if in this position

lol this is going nuts. calling that 4b is criminal. tbh though once i get here i probs c/c flop and try and re-evaluate turn. Your line looks super strong so u dont really have to worry about him ever firing some kind of sick double barrel in a 4b pot with worse imo, yet he prolly will cbet KK and QQ (not sure why but live pro's do).

check call flop and probably check fold the turn.

With a hand expectation like that, it gives support to Tank's line.

Mike - i think we all agree that the preflop line was super horrible - but the fact of the matter is we are there. So it is a case of what to do now.

Your opening comment in your last post makes me think that you think you have a strong hand? Against the villlains range you have a hand with show down value if you can get there as cheap as possible. I would be honest if it went ck ck, ck ck, i wouldnt even value bet the river with AQ in this spot! It is the weakest holding that you will get paid with.

Alex has the right line  - i think the c bet with KK is opponent dependant, but being so deep into the hand i think it could get checked down if they have KK.

Again - thanks for responses guys. Thread has provoked some good discussion so far even though I've been kicking myself for 3 days about calling the 4-bet pre. Sick sick brain-fart. Hopefully I don't have one again for another 3 months.

I was thinking a fair bit as to why I did it at the time and here's what I came up with....Villain was raising so much that against his button open I was happy to reraise him for value. I was expecting him to pass pre but even if he defended in position which he'd done once or twice with less than premium hands I believe I could have played the hand profitably enough OOP. I was never really expecting him to 4-ball me and I didn't want to fold and have him turn over 106 or 5-bet smash into KK and hence brain fart.

Anyway....

I check the flop. Villain checks behind.

Turn 5.

I decide to check again.

He bet's 62k. I call.

River comes another 5.

I check again. Villain moves all in for c.300k and now has me covered.

We?

92k pre...check the flop back to you..milk the turn and then smash the river?

Wow, he either has a set or air here, thinking he can bet you off a weak ace or something. I probs snap here.

he has AA - everytime!

he checks the nuts on the flop

he value towns on the turn, and then he has (pretty much) the nuts on the river and thinks you have the case A to pay him off!

If that is a bluff on the end - fair play to him - but it is only a bluff 5% of the time because of your (enforced) weak line.

I fold on the end, and you have to pay the v bet on the turn. You got away as cheap as possible post flop after your horrible line pre.............. oh wait you called?!?!!?!?!!?!??

I reckon he has got JJ or AA here.

Without being there and seeing the action its tough to tell if he is capable of a sick bluff here but way played I have to fold.

Just out of interest cos, ever consider check raising the turn???

fold, agree with outragous76 and Blatch, surely he has to have AA or JJ now ?

I would lead turn as played fold river

I agree with this - just to name your own price - as i think the v bet should have been a little bigger by the villain. He prob got away as cheap as possible!

WTF??

What would be the reasoning to do so?

Never crossed my mind as I'm essentially turning my hand into a bluff/repping a v small range (basically JJJ or AAA).

I've already fucked up by calling pre so I'm trying not to stack off if I can avoid it, esp since I can do half my stack in this hand and still have one of the bigger stacks in the tournament and a significant edge on the other players. If I check raise I'd have put in like 260k of my 390k and prob not going to fold if I get set in which obviously I'd hate.

 

so you folded the river push?..did he show?

Villain showing 55 here would cap it all off. Difficult to see how he can have anything less than JJ here.

People shouldn't be so quick to say we are beat here. I agree that his line looks like a big hand but does the LAG necessarily need a big hand to take that line? All he really needs with the benefit of his position is the knowledge we don't have a big hand. And we don't. He knows that cos we've checked to him on all 3 streets. So he knows WE don't have A-A, and thus he can make this play. GreekStein is desperately trying to avoid stacking off in this hand and plays it accordingly. Villain only needs to pick up that his oppo doesn't want to stack off to give him the green light to shove and ask his oppo if he wants to stack off. I would say villain knows we have an Ace. So the question is would this villain have the heart to squeeze us off an Ace? From the initial description of villain this seems possible, but it's very difficult to come to a conclusion without being there. Truly horrible spot. Yet a very fitting spot to find ourselves in after the 4-bet call pre-flop imo.

I dwelled up for quite a while as I knew he was never shoving AK there and knew he wasnt 4-balling me pre with JJ or AJ but I was talking to him a bit and it seemed like he was doing everything to make me call. I passed and he showed AA.

I'm a dickhead for playing a hand so bad pre (i.e calling a 4-bet with my hand - I think fold is just best) but think the rest was ok now looking back.

Thanks for your responses guys.

This is why I prefer to lead the turn- he's got to have some balls to c/raise turn with air float to bet river. If he has an inferior holding I'd imagine the river would go check/check assuming he calls our turn bet

I still think however even with the line Cos took- we are beat.

Agreed he can be bluffing here with KK or QQ. If so he has successfully taken the same line as though he had AA. I'd say he was more likely to have AA given that would be standard line but well played if he has KK here.

He is asking the question do we want to stack off ? From GreekSteins last update I think the answer is no, we don't.

I think this falls into my 5% bracket. Lets not forget that the villain is CL and if he isnt holding AA (or even just a single A) - he cant truely define our hand. I have been known to LAG it up especially against weaker opponents (not a comment about greek) - but you have got to be super confident that you are not going to get an "ah fk it " type call from Ax (given that baord pairs on the end). You are just going to see that here too often in this spot with 2 huge stacks. After the 65k call he only has 240k - and the pot is offering 3:1 if the villain shoves.

I think that the hand is wrapped up on the turn (given the ck on the flop) and the hero can pretty much call the villains hand at this point.

For me the villain could have stacked the hero if he weak leads the flop (65k), checks the turn (after looking at cards) and then if the hero gets to a point where he thinks he can v bet the end (due to paired board), he would probably have to call the shove on the end at that point.

I guess it is easy to disect the hand after the event. I think the only true error by the villain was the size of the v bet on the turn - i think 100k gets paid (and could even induce the call on the end - but prob not).

Sorry, buddy I don't get how Villain can't define our hand. We check the flop. We check the turn. We call a small bet. We check the river. It is clear our aim is to play as small a pot as possible and as such our hand is clearly defined. Now villain knows we want to play a small pot he can use his position to ask us if we want to stack off....because he knows we don't. Villain is a LAG, the CL, can play and sees us as capable and solid. I think saying he bluffs 5% of the time doesn't respect his ability to be better than that vs us, and it doesn't tie in with the reason Hero called pre...namely villain is very active and possibly spewy in places. This sort of player doesn't have the nuts 95% of the time because he chooses to use a strong line vs perceived weakness. But whatever, the 4-bet call pre is shown to be pretty bad come the river cos of this situation. We have been forced to act pretty weak from that point on even though we hit and so we can't know for sure if villain has it. If he doesn't have it his river bet is good poker imo.

I am not disputing what you say - im just saying that it is a very easy hand for the villain when he holds (even 1 A - let alone 2). I just dont think that people make this play too often without the goods. I dont know who the villain is, but to bluff this spot you have to be super super sick.  - thats my 5%

I think the problem any LAG has here (lets assume he is bluffing with absolutely nothing to put the A's back in the deck). Assuming solid play - he cant not put the hero on AA (as played). Against a villain capable of shoving on the end (a super sicko), there are times when you could check the nuts on the river to  set the play up. Ok this is unlikely - as most time you value bet - but there is always that possibility. So he is going to give up what is a very good spot (of having 300k left or whatever he has if he loses) to risk taking a 300k pot on a stone cold bluff. Its a massive play.

Finally - and this again reinforces the point above. How does the hand play out if the Hero has AK? I think the chips end up in the middle! This again is a risk to the bluff shove on the end

get the fk out lol!!!!


is Mr. Saban ever gonna run a deep bluff here? no thought not. see you at luton tonight boss? dinner MIGHT be on me.......