blonde poker forum

This could hit the Live poker scene alot due to the money the casino's make or lose on cardooms.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=483149&in_page_id=3&ito=1565

50%???? WTF?

This will be the death of casino poker. Most casinos will already not be making that much, if anything, from poker (Which is why most casinos treat it with contempt) I wonder what DtD will do if this goes through.

A 50% tax is perverse.

GG live poker, you had a good run.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/

internet poker next?

It's quite frankly bonkers

With the unlicensed premises and particularly with the internet the casinos will either stop running it because they won't make any money, or they'll put the price up so people won't go because there are so many alternatives.

It makes you wonder exactly what sort of economists the Government consult with.

Possibly the more likely option is that it's just the civil servants and politicians who have come up with it, without bothering to work out the numbers.

Don't think that work very well, sites would just move to another eu country that didn't tax so much?

i can see alot of the smaller regional cardrooms going under with this.

Again, I can't see DtD survive with this...50% tax is nuts.

Bookies pay 15% gross tax on the profits and corperation tax but I am fairly sure that doesn't even amount to 50%.

It's bonkers, because the tax will never be collected.

Casinos will do the sums and simply can the poker and shift the staff and resources to the casino games, rather than try and run the poker to make a profit.

correct

i really hope this does not affect DTD...otherwise they'll be war!

of course it will affect them, they will have to pay 35% extra on all poker income. i am sure people can think of ways around it though, i can.

Maybe that's the point, stealth attack on gambling.

Thats not the correct pettition, We need one to stop the tax increase to 50% ! not the one to oust Gordon Brown, Even if he leaves the 50% tax will come in.

I cant, what's your idea?

woooops to late!!!!

This is so annoying.  These ****************s are going to borrow a zillion pounds over the next few years.  This proposal is estimated to raise errrr £5m. 

If this goes through it will kill live poker. Totally and irrevocably.

The only option for people wanting to play will be home games or moving to Vegas.

Please somebody start a petition to oppose this nonsense. I am pretty sure we will all sign it.

By the way, this thread should be in 'The Rail' so that more people will see it.

Good spot Batman.

:)up

On my reading, the 50% rate applies to Gross Gambling Yield above £10m or so pa.  Looks like there are banded rates applying to GGY up to this level (see http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2009/bn73.pdf (point 15)).

So whilst the casinos will pay at 50% due to their other gambling income, DTD's rate will be lower (although probably higher than it is now?)

Hi All

First a huge thanks to all of you for playing our 50 seat Guaranteed Super Satellite , this exceeded our expectations giving away an unbelievable 61 seats.

It is highly likely we will do this again next month , i should be able to confirm by the weekend.

Also we really appreciate the feedback regarding the site and will get back to you in the next few days with updates regarding improvements.

In the meantime after everything we've been through and the hard work that has been put in to make Dusk Till Dawn the success it is, this was one bit of news we could have done without !!!


http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=483149&in_page_id=3&ito=1565


Cheers

ACES

After reading the HMRC page, doesn't it suggests that DTD will probably be better off? If VAT is removed from participation fees (which I assume is reg charge and rake) and tax bands being increased for Gross Gaming Yield, although the tax is higher, this IMO is more aimed at live casinos, as the GGY for DTD surely cannot be that much as the GGY is calculated as so http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Client/faq_detail.asp?id=90 or maybe i have just lost the plot :)

Agree the VAT change looks helpful.  I'm not sure what rate of Gaming Duty applied to poker income before the change so difficult to say whether the overall result is positive or negative for DTD. 

And again, although it says ONLY and similar games, all games listed are "house games" where hard gaming takes place, makes no mention of "poker" as such


All listed in bold which come under the umbrella of poker is hard gaming "against the house", poker as we know it is completely different than those listed.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_InfoGuides&id=HMCE_CL_001202&propertyType=document

The bits you quote here are the old rules - under the old rules poker income was not GGY.  Now the budget change brings all gaming income (including charges for the commercial provision of eqaul chance games (ie poker rake)) within GGY - see point 2 of the budget note http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2009/bn73.pdf

You are, of course correct that was the latest as of Sept 2008  ;frustrated;

You would have thought that the site would update after the announcement lol

Even so, I don't think DTD will be greatly effected, ( obv I don't know how much GGY DTD accrues) may just mean the rake cap maybe a tad higher to sustain it  :dontask:

Or make the rake lower, but charge an entrance fee, more for drinks, seating charges (so they're not tied to poker), etc.  Not sure on what can or can't be done though.

how likely will this law be passed? and when do we know for sure?

i hope this is not that bad...fml

^^^^^^^
Thats how dtd will get around it £50 + £0 to play and move the rake on to the door so you play to enter the building and have a little band playing sweet music  so the £5 is to play the entertainment

Cash games say the rake is 5% when you sit down the dealer remembers how much your playing with if you leave up you pay 5% of any winning to simon around the back where nobody can see if you lose you don't pay

I personally am much more concerned for the GUKPT than DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) based on the GGY figures. I imagine the turnover at the Grosvenor chain for poker is pretty hefty and this could impact not only the tour but the added value that comes with it.

Obviously from my own point of view, I want DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) to stay afloat as its my local haunt and the best poker venue in the word, but I think the GUKPT might get massivley hit by this because there are so many Grosvenor venues across the country , which is bad for UK poker.

Hopefully there are ways around it, I'm pretty sure there will be and hopefully all the players will respect any minor changes they have to endure to keep poker in their casinos.

 rotflmfao

LOL.

Funny thing is that in Japan many forms of gambling are illegal - including playing pachinko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko) for cash.  They get round this by giving the gamblers the chance to exchange the prizes on offer for money.  So in effect, they're playing for cash.  Sometimes this does involve going round the back to to see the manager!

OMG, not at all complex then!

According to a manager I spoke to briefly about this the other day. The grosvenors casinos are classed independantly of each other. He thinks the poker in the G Manchester will hardly be affected by the changes. But the Vic will be severely affected due to the large turnover they have and them being in the 50% tax bracket.

As DTD has no house games pushing them up the tax brackets I don't see it affecting them that much.

thats great news

Apparently it will effect them, more than i thought

We have been working with our tax advisors and this is going to have a huge effect on DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/), effectively all our Juice and Rake will be taxed at somehwere between 15% to 20%. The worst thing about this is that it is on REVENUE - NOT PROFIT (if it was on profit DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) would pay £0!).

This is what the Government have done to DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) so far.

1. They made us get a full Casino Licence and delayed our opening at considerable cost but have left all the so called "illegal poker clubs" alone.

2. They told us we were "VAT except" after we opened so we could not claim VAT back on the £3.8m refit/start up costs (and running costs thereafter)

3. They changed our Business Rates to £200k from £50K to make us in line with the other CASINOS in Nottingham

4. And now they want us to pay 15%-20% of ALL of our poker revenue to them in "Gaming Duty"

DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) (including  online) has never made 1p profit and I am down £5m on DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) and now they do this.

This is very bad for live poker in the UK. We are currently speaking to our advisors and the HRM Customs and Excise, it looks like bad news and even worse, they are going to backdate it to April 29th 2009!!!!!

I have also spoke to Rank, some of their venues will hit the full 50% which is so bad for UK poker - this is money GOING OUT OF THE GAME.

Sadly, I believe this is the Government's  first step towards taxing Poker generally - ie winnings and Prize Pools.

All that will happen is poker will be played live in illegal clubs and of course, on the online sites in non-taxable countries.

It's a nightmare, we are reviewing the situation but I am not prepared to do anything illegal to try and dodge the new Gaming Tax (thanks for the ideas though!). We have to look at our options.....

Rob

Nice to see you posting again Rob - just a shame it had to be on such a dire note.

Hopefully things show signs of turning around.

Does anyone know what the Conservative's position is on gaming and that, seeing as Labour's position will cease to be a factor within a year.

i have spoke to a few Cardroom managers on this for a well known group that I may or may not have had a history with, they are looking at putting a rental fee on the staff and equipment which they seem to think will bypass the poker income. As for rake in cash I think that it will have to end due to the amount they will have to take to break even on running them.

I think for places like DTD the best way to go is to run a membership fee on a daily basis therefore if you are going in it will cost you £10 per night with no entrance fee to comps this should be able to evade the tax law as it will be a membership fee on a private members club.

Unbelievable. totally missed all this in the budget.  These idiots in power have got to go

On a related subject, I have never seen why poker winnings are not taxed.

Its nice to enjoy something in life without it having it taxed, thank you very much

cos its a luck game innit.

Sigh. I lose my job because Grosvenor will find it cheaper to not run poker most likely.

If a pro poker player ricks his back carrying his huge ego around around he goes to see the doctor.

If he gets his wallet nicked he calls the police.

We use public services just the same as everyone else, why shouldn't we pay our share for them?

I don't think casual players who play recreationally should have to pay taxes on winnings, just the pros.

define a pro

Someone who relies on gambling as sole or main form of income.

phew its my main source of expenditure not income

The day will come no doubt. I expressed the view it would a couple of years ago when casinos started scanning everyones ticket when they had a rebuy. A perfect way to keep track on what people spend in tournaments.

I just think its nice to have something which isnt taxed at the moment as we are used to having the bollox taxed out of us as a nation.

Do you pay any NI contributions?

Yes, I've paid my stamp every year since I left work.

If you want to voluntarily pay tax, I'm fairly certain HMRC will accomodate you.

Someone always says that when I have this debate.

Obv I don't want to pay tax.

It's just I have yet to hear a decent, moral argument why a pro gambler shouldn't pay tax.

Dont you consider the rake in a cash game a sort of taxation? I know its a table charge but seems like your also being taxed  for being a winner.
.
 Would all the losing gamblers be eligible for some sort of tax rebate ?


Up until recently gamblers were taxed in the bookies

Poker Players pay rake, the rake is taxed, hence poker players already pay tax!

In effect gamblers still pay tax when using bookies, it just comes off the bookies profits instead of being taken from the gambler at point of sale.
IIRC bookies turnover quadrupled in the few years after the betting duty was abolished, making the Govt. far more in tax then they were previously from gambling.

How would this work? What defines casual player or Pro? I work self employed, pay my tax etc and also play alot of poker - am I a casual player or pro? If I go on a huge downswing am I allowed to claim it as a taxable expense?

Also, the money I have earnt has already been taxed, why should it be taxed again when I decide to play poker with it?

If gambling winnings are taxable then surely gambling losses become tax-deductable?

I would imagine the tax lost from gambling losses would be more than the tax gained from gambling wins.

Keith, think of all the poker losers as paying your tax for you.

the money you spend in the pub/shop/petrol station etc etc has already been taxed its still taxed again

The money I spend on the poker table is taxed when I pay the rake.

Also buying a product which has a certain % tax on it is completely different to income tax.

For the government to start taxing poker winnings as income they would have to regard playing poker as a trade. In order to do this they would have to acknowledge that poker was a skill game rather than luck.

If the government acknowledge poker as skill rather than luck then surely it is not gambling and would not be subject to a gambling licence.

This would open a whole can of worms for the government.

Probably me.

The reason someone always says it is because taxation has nothing to do with moral arguments, only the laws that set down how taxes are collected. 

a few days old but still could be interestingf to some.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e567b5fc-2ffa-11de-a2f8-00144feabdc0.html

flushy could of brought the isle of capri instead of setting up the shewdies