NEW Tax on Poker for Casino's

[LeedsRhodesy]

GG live poker, you had a good run.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/please-go/

Thats not the correct pettition, We need one to stop the tax increase to 50% ! not the one to oust Gordon Brown, Even if he leaves the 50% tax will come in.

woooops to late!!!!

[doubleup]

This is so annoying.  These ****************s are going to borrow a zillion pounds over the next few years.  This proposal is estimated to raise errrr £5m. 

[Pyso]

If this goes through it will kill live poker. Totally and irrevocably.

The only option for people wanting to play will be home games or moving to Vegas.

Please somebody start a petition to oppose this nonsense. I am pretty sure we will all sign it.

By the way, this thread should be in 'The Rail' so that more people will see it.

[kinboshi]

If this goes through it will kill live poker. Totally and irrevocably.

The only option for people wanting to play will be home games or moving to Vegas.

Please somebody start a petition to oppose this nonsense. I am pretty sure we will all sign it.

By the way, this thread should be in 'The Rail' so that more people will see it.

Good spot Batman.

[EagleBeagle]

On my reading, the 50% rate applies to Gross Gambling Yield above £10m or so pa.  Looks like there are banded rates applying to GGY up to this level (see http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2009/bn73.pdf (point 15)).

So whilst the casinos will pay at 50% due to their other gambling income, DTD's rate will be lower (although probably higher than it is now?)

[DTD-ACES]

Hi All

First a huge thanks to all of you for playing our 50 seat Guaranteed Super Satellite , this exceeded our expectations giving away an unbelievable 61 seats.

It is highly likely we will do this again next month , i should be able to confirm by the weekend.

Also we really appreciate the feedback regarding the site and will get back to you in the next few days with updates regarding improvements.

In the meantime after everything we've been through and the hard work that has been put in to make Dusk Till Dawn the success it is, this was one bit of news we could have done without !!!


http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=483149&in_page_id=3&ito=1565


Cheers

ACES

[dik9]

In the meantime after everything we've been through and the hard work that has been put in to make Dusk Till Dawn the success it is, this was one bit of news we could have done without !!!


http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=483149&in_page_id=3&ito=1565


Cheers

ACES

After reading the HMRC page, doesn't it suggests that DTD will probably be better off? If VAT is removed from participation fees (which I assume is reg charge and rake) and tax bands being increased for Gross Gaming Yield, although the tax is higher, this IMO is more aimed at live casinos, as the GGY for DTD surely cannot be that much as the GGY is calculated as so http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Client/faq_detail.asp?id=90 or maybe i have just lost the plot

[EagleBeagle]

In the meantime after everything we've been through and the hard work that has been put in to make Dusk Till Dawn the success it is, this was one bit of news we could have done without !!!


http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=483149&in_page_id=3&ito=1565


Cheers

ACES

After reading the HMRC page, doesn't it suggests that DTD will probably be better off? If VAT is removed from participation fees (which I assume is reg charge and rake) and tax bands being increased for Gross Gaming Yield, although the tax is higher, this IMO is more aimed at live casinos, as the GGY for DTD surely cannot be that much as the GGY is calculated as so http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Client/faq_detail.asp?id=90 or maybe i have just lost the plot

Agree the VAT change looks helpful.  I'm not sure what rate of Gaming Duty applied to poker income before the change so difficult to say whether the overall result is positive or negative for DTD. 

[dik9]

And again, although it says ONLY and similar games, all games listed are "house games" where hard gaming takes place, makes no mention of "poker" as such

What games does it apply to?
It applies only to the following games, or games essentially similar to them:

American Roulette
Baccarat
Big six
Blackjack
Boule
Casino hold ‘em poker
Casino Stud Poker
Chemin de Fer
Chuck-a-Luck
Craps
Crown and Anchor
Faro
Faro Bank
French Roulette
Hazard
Let it ride
Pai gow poker
Poker Dice
Pontoon
Punto Banco
Sic Bo
Super Pan 9
Texas hold ‘em bonus poker
Three Card Poker
Trente et Quarante
Two-way Texas hold ‘em casino poker
Ultimate Texas hold ‘em poker
Vingt-et-un
Wheel of Fortune

All listed in bold which come under the umbrella of poker is hard gaming "against the house", poker as we know it is completely different than those listed.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_InfoGuides&id=HMCE_CL_001202&propertyType=document

[EagleBeagle]

And again, although it says ONLY and similar games, all games listed are "house games" where hard gaming takes place, makes no mention of "poker" as such

What games does it apply to?
It applies only to the following games, or games essentially similar to them:

American Roulette
Baccarat
Big six
Blackjack
Boule
Casino hold ‘em poker
Casino Stud Poker
Chemin de Fer
Chuck-a-Luck
Craps
Crown and Anchor
Faro
Faro Bank
French Roulette
Hazard
Let it ride
Pai gow poker
Poker Dice
Pontoon
Punto Banco
Sic Bo
Super Pan 9
Texas hold ‘em bonus poker
Three Card Poker
Trente et Quarante
Two-way Texas hold ‘em casino poker
Ultimate Texas hold ‘em poker
Vingt-et-un
Wheel of Fortune

All listed in bold which come under the umbrella of poker is hard gaming "against the house", poker as we know it is completely different than those listed.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_InfoGuides&id=HMCE_CL_001202&propertyType=document

The bits you quote here are the old rules - under the old rules poker income was not GGY.  Now the budget change brings all gaming income (including charges for the commercial provision of eqaul chance games (ie poker rake)) within GGY - see point 2 of the budget note http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2009/bn73.pdf

[dik9]

You are, of course correct that was the latest as of Sept 2008 

You would have thought that the site would update after the announcement lol

Even so, I don't think DTD will be greatly effected, ( obv I don't know how much GGY DTD accrues) may just mean the rake cap maybe a tad higher to sustain it 

[kinboshi]

You are, of course correct that was the latest as of Sept 2008 

You would have thought that the site would update after the announcement lol

Even so, I don't think DTD will be greatly effected, ( obv I don't know how much GGY DTD accrues) may just mean the rake cap maybe a tad higher to sustain it 

Or make the rake lower, but charge an entrance fee, more for drinks, seating charges (so they're not tied to poker), etc.  Not sure on what can or can't be done though.

[#1Instigator]

how likely will this law be passed? and when do we know for sure?

i hope this is not that bad...fml

[LeedsRhodesy]

Or make the rake lower, but charge an entrance fee, more for drinks, seating charges (so they're not tied to poker), etc.  Not sure on what can or can't be done though.

^^^^^^^
Thats how dtd will get around it £50 + £0 to play and move the rake on to the door so you play to enter the building and have a little band playing sweet music  so the £5 is to play the entertainment

Cash games say the rake is 5% when you sit down the dealer remembers how much your playing with if you leave up you pay 5% of any winning to simon around the back where nobody can see if you lose you don't pay

[DaveShoelace]

I personally am much more concerned for the GUKPT than DTD based on the GGY figures. I imagine the turnover at the Grosvenor chain for poker is pretty hefty and this could impact not only the tour but the added value that comes with it.

Obviously from my own point of view, I want DTD to stay afloat as its my local haunt and the best poker venue in the word, but I think the GUKPT might get massivley hit by this because there are so many Grosvenor venues across the country , which is bad for UK poker.

Hopefully there are ways around it, I'm pretty sure there will be and hopefully all the players will respect any minor changes they have to endure to keep poker in their casinos.