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Poker Forums => Poker Hand Analysis => Topic started by: Suited_Jock on June 10, 2009, 12:40:26 PM



Title: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: Suited_Jock on June 10, 2009, 12:40:26 PM
No reads as not sat down long..

GAME #1665041000: Texas Hold'em NL $0.50/$1.00 2009-06-10 12:36:47
Table Manganese
Seat 1: AKh9 ($117.80 in chips)
Seat 2: iufutc ($100.00 in chips)
Seat 5: OldN7Brand ($260.10 in chips) DEALER
Seat 6: thunderbug67 ($102.00 in chips)
Seat 7: italy90 ($98.65 in chips)
Seat 8: ScHnibL0r ($26.00 in chips)
Seat 9: danielbln28 ($143.40 in chips)
Seat 10: Sandra1973 ($20.00 in chips)
thunderbug67: Post SB $0.50
italy90: Post BB $1.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to thunderbug67 [DQ HQ]
ScHnibL0r: Fold
danielbln28: Raise (NF) $3.00
Sandra1973: Fold
AKh9: Fold
iufutc: Fold
OldN7Brand: Fold
thunderbug67: Raise (NF) $11.00
italy90: Fold
danielbln28: Raise (NF) $33.00
Hero.. Folds right??


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: cambo on June 10, 2009, 12:42:53 PM
yeah full ring stars/tilt it is dunno about ipoker would say so


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: boldie on June 10, 2009, 01:09:35 PM
full ring nittyness....yuck, I think a fold is probs the best idea.



Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: EvilPie on June 10, 2009, 01:13:46 PM
If this is seriously a fold I need to be careful to never play full ring HE.

Are people honestly only ever 4 betting with KK or AA?

Better to 5 bet then call a jam imo. Yeah he may have KK or AA but at least you'll know for next time.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: cambo on June 10, 2009, 01:17:32 PM
this is always kk aa on stars/tilt learnt the hard way


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: boldie on June 10, 2009, 01:20:50 PM
If this is seriously a fold I need to be careful to never play full ring HE.

Are people honestly only ever 4 betting with KK or AA?

Better to 5 bet then call a jam imo. Yeah he may have KK or AA but at least you'll know for next time.

full ring is evil..it really is.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 10, 2009, 01:25:05 PM
this is always kk aa on stars/tilt learnt the hard way

Get away.

Its happened to you twice now you fold QQ pre flop at .50/1

Madness


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: cambo on June 10, 2009, 01:27:43 PM
gl 5 bet shoving qq at.5/1 on there 2 outers ftw


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 10, 2009, 01:33:01 PM
Need some more opinions here.
I cant believe that we are behind enough to even think about folding.

If im wrong then im fckin glad i dont play .50/1!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: gatso on June 10, 2009, 01:47:36 PM
wow, just wow at ever thinking about folding here. please add me to the growing list of people who never want to play full ring


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: boldie on June 10, 2009, 01:49:40 PM
wow, just wow at ever thinking about folding here. please add me to the growing list of people who never want to play full ring

obv, it depends on the villain's stats but FR really is the devil's play ground these days.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: AndrewT on June 10, 2009, 02:57:59 PM
wow, just wow at ever thinking about folding here. please add me to the growing list of people who never want to play full ring

obv, it depends on the villain's stats but FR really is the devil's play ground these days.

The devil stopped playing FR because he found it boring.

Just think - back in the day plenty of people used to play full-ring fixed limit games.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: EvilPie on June 10, 2009, 04:43:21 PM
this is always kk aa on stars/tilt learnt the hard way

What's your username on stars/tilt?

What times do you normally play?


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: Royal Flush on June 10, 2009, 09:35:09 PM
I am going to start playing full ring and just 4b every hand!

P.S. Don't 3bet without a plan vs a 4bet.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 11, 2009, 12:13:40 PM
Cambo you complete jam doughnut!

Replace the QQ with KK

Whats your play now?


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: GreekStein on June 11, 2009, 12:44:22 PM
I am going to start playing full ring and just die of boredom

fyp


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: thetank on June 11, 2009, 02:43:04 PM
Cambo you complete jam doughnut!

Replace the QQ with KK

Whats your play now?

KK is so different to QQ, the two hands are in different worlds.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: EvilPie on June 11, 2009, 03:52:58 PM
Cambo you complete jam doughnut!

Replace the QQ with KK

Whats your play now?

KK is so different to QQ, the two hands are in different worlds.


I was discussing this with Stu last night.

If we pass QQ because oppo only ever 4 bets with KK or AA it's not really that different.

Oppo has 4 bet so he must have KK or AA. Because we've got 2 of the kings we have to put oppo on AA.

Therefore we should be passing KK.

I'm not saying that passing here is right obviously I was just saying that if Cambo wants to get it all in with KK given his thinking it's not really that different to QQ.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: doubleup on June 11, 2009, 03:56:07 PM
Cambo you complete jam doughnut!

Replace the QQ with KK

Whats your play now?

KK is so different to QQ, the two hands are in different worlds.


I was discussing this with Stu last night.

If we pass QQ because oppo only ever 4 bets with KK or AA it's not really that different.

Oppo has 4 bet so he must have KK or AA. Because we've got 2 of the kings we have to put oppo on AA.

Therefore we should be passing KK.

I'm not saying that passing here is right obviously I was just saying that if Cambo wants to get it all in with KK given his thinking it's not really that different to QQ.


As a matter of interest, how much full ring nl do you play on stars?



Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: EvilPie on June 11, 2009, 03:59:14 PM
Cambo you complete jam doughnut!

Replace the QQ with KK

Whats your play now?

KK is so different to QQ, the two hands are in different worlds.


I was discussing this with Stu last night.

If we pass QQ because oppo only ever 4 bets with KK or AA it's not really that different.

Oppo has 4 bet so he must have KK or AA. Because we've got 2 of the kings we have to put oppo on AA.

Therefore we should be passing KK.

I'm not saying that passing here is right obviously I was just saying that if Cambo wants to get it all in with KK given his thinking it's not really that different to QQ.


As a matter of interest, how much full ring nl do you play on stars?



None


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: boldie on June 11, 2009, 04:03:15 PM
Cambo you complete jam doughnut!

Replace the QQ with KK

Whats your play now?

KK is so different to QQ, the two hands are in different worlds.


I was discussing this with Stu last night.

If we pass QQ because oppo only ever 4 bets with KK or AA it's not really that different.

Oppo has 4 bet so he must have KK or AA. Because we've got 2 of the kings we have to put oppo on AA.

Therefore we should be passing KK.

I'm not saying that passing here is right obviously I was just saying that if Cambo wants to get it all in with KK given his thinking it's not really that different to QQ.


As a matter of interest, how much full ring nl do you play on stars?



None

Which is quite smart as you'd top yourself from the nittyness on stars...it really is nuts. (obv KK is different from QQ BTW.....but I'm guessing you know this :) )


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: EvilPie on June 11, 2009, 04:11:30 PM
Cambo you complete jam doughnut!

Replace the QQ with KK

Whats your play now?

KK is so different to QQ, the two hands are in different worlds.


I was discussing this with Stu last night.

If we pass QQ because oppo only ever 4 bets with KK or AA it's not really that different.

Oppo has 4 bet so he must have KK or AA. Because we've got 2 of the kings we have to put oppo on AA.

Therefore we should be passing KK.

I'm not saying that passing here is right obviously I was just saying that if Cambo wants to get it all in with KK given his thinking it's not really that different to QQ.


As a matter of interest, how much full ring nl do you play on stars?



None

Which is quite smart as you'd top yourself from the nittyness on stars...it really is nuts. (obv KK is different from QQ BTW.....but I'm guessing you know this :) )

If we only ever put oppo on KK or AA then it really isn't that different. Ok so we might have a chance of a split pot now but we're still probably losing.

With QQ there are 4 hands oppo could have that are all beating us.

With KK there are 2 hands that are beating us and 1 hand that we split against. It is more likely given that we've got KK that oppo has AA so we are probably losing.

If we add AK and QQ to his range and all the others that he could 4 bet with then yes it's a huge difference.



Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 11, 2009, 04:40:05 PM
You lot are nuts!

Im gonna play some .50/1 on stars for an hour when i get home.

If its half as nitty as you say it is ill eat my big clown shoes.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: doubleup on June 11, 2009, 04:57:28 PM
You lot are nuts!

Im gonna play some .50/1 on stars for an hour when i get home.

If its half as nitty as you say it is ill eat my big clown shoes.

For your experiment stick to the games with 5% or less seeing the flop, there should be a few to choose from (6 atm).


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: kinboshi on June 11, 2009, 05:07:38 PM
You lot are nuts!

Im gonna play some .50/1 on stars for an hour when i get home.

If its half as nitty as you say it is ill eat my big clown shoes.

Enjoy.

 ;sleep;


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 11, 2009, 07:21:00 PM
You lot are nuts!

Im gonna play some .50/1 on stars for an hour when i get home.

If its half as nitty as you say it is ill eat my big clown shoes.

Enjoy.

 ;sleep;

Played 2 tables for an hour
Confirmed this entire thread is a level.
Fold QQ = Burning Money = You bunch of nits
Ship>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fold = Hand in the air


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: thetank on June 11, 2009, 07:23:35 PM
Putting opponent on AA or KK anything close to 100% of the time is a tough sell when you have KK.

It's much easier to be 99%+ confident that opponent has AA or KK when you hold QQ.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 11, 2009, 07:37:02 PM
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Spoke to soon
Fkin nitty bastards!
You lot owe me a buy in!

*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #29252698336: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2009/06/11 19:29:08 WET [2009/06/11 14:29:08 ET]
Table 'Maritima III' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: sahas81 ($178.15 in chips)
Seat 2: shrek_132 ($66.50 in chips)
Seat 3: msv83 ($20 in chips)
Seat 5: StuartHopkin ($99.45 in chips)
Seat 6: Spooowi ($111.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Pechkin85 ($18.50 in chips)
Seat 9: valhalla30 ($20 in chips)
DapperTan has returned
shrek_132: posts small blind $0.50
msv83: posts big blind
$1XY8000: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to StuartHopkin [6s 4s]
sahas81 said, "so you thought you could **** with me yeah?"
StuartHopkin: raises $2 to $3
Spooowi: folds
 sahas81 said, "youre wrong fish"
Pechkin85: folds
valhalla30: folds
sahas81: raises $6 to $9
shrek_132: folds
msv83: folds
StuartHopkin: calls $6
*** FLOP *** [6h Ks 9d]
StuartHopkin: checks
sahas81: checks
*** TURN *** [6h Ks 9d] [7d]
StuartHopkin: checks
sahas81: bets $16
StuartHopkin: calls $16
*** RIVER *** [6h Ks 9d 7d] [6c]
StuartHopkin: bets $28
sahas81: raises $125.15 to $153.15 and is all-in
StuartHopkin: calls $46.45 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($78.70) returned to sahas81
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sahas81: shows [Kd Kc] (a full house, Kings full of Sixes)
StuartHopkin: mucks hand
sahas81 collected $197.40 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $200.40 | Rake $3 Board [6h Ks 9d 7d 6c]
Seat 1: sahas81 (button) showed [Kd Kc] and won ($197.40) with a full house, Kings full of Sixes
Seat 2: shrek_132 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: msv83 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: StuartHopkin mucked [6s 4s]
Seat 6: Spooowi folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Pechkin85 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: valhalla30 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: doubleup on June 11, 2009, 07:49:46 PM
haha hand hist confirmed as not fake

There are plenty of nl 100 players with an utg raising range of qq+ ak - their 4 betting range is less than this.  You will rarely come across anyone who 4 bets with JJ and thats what you really need here.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: Simon Galloway on June 11, 2009, 07:50:34 PM
I left a .5/1 table open for a bit, have just looked now, they have played 4 orbits and not seen a single flop.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: doubleup on June 11, 2009, 07:56:30 PM
I left a .5/1 table open for a bit, have just looked now, they have played 4 orbits and not seen a single flop.

they are waiting for u to come back


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: Simon Galloway on June 11, 2009, 08:46:53 PM
YBA.  The last thing they need is one more tight ass in the game.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: cambo on June 11, 2009, 10:38:11 PM
Cambo you complete jam doughnut!

Replace the QQ with KK

Whats your play now?

shove


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 12, 2009, 12:04:07 AM
Cambo you complete jam doughnut!

Replace the QQ with KK

Whats your play now?

shove

lol

see previous posts

so you fold QQ cus your always up against KK or AA
but if you have KK your happy to shove when the other the nearly always must have AA cus you have two of the kings

cambo, i think you may be my new hero


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: cambo on June 12, 2009, 12:15:28 AM
its pretty standard mate once youve played kkks of hands,  ill get canuck to post on this thread whos now a 2/4 3/6 reg on stars and has over a million hands played at .5/1 and above nin 12 tableing


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: EvilPie on June 12, 2009, 12:25:40 AM
its pretty standard mate once youve played kkks of hands,  ill get canuck to post on this thread whos now a 2/4 3/6 reg on stars and has over a million hands played at .5/1 and above nin 12 tableing

So why bother 3 betting QQ if you're passing to a 4 bet?

Isn't that turning the hand in to a bluff?


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: cambo on June 12, 2009, 12:32:35 AM
tbh im done with this thread canny be arsed ill direct canuck to it maybe ull give him more credit, all standard stuff


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: EvilPie on June 12, 2009, 12:44:42 AM
If it's standard why post it?

I'd guess because he's not 100% sure he should pass.

Not being funny btw. I'm genuinely curious about this.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: cambo on June 12, 2009, 12:52:57 AM
ok ok last post , i got asked about switching qq-kk the diff is massive , never ever pass kk full ring yes in this spot ull get shown aa a fair amount of the time but kk is never a fold ever but with qq it is with this action at .5/1 , canuck will expalin better than i can


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: Canuck on June 12, 2009, 11:05:12 PM
I play quite a bit of full ring on Stars and this is a fold.

Few reasons:

1) You are out of position. If you call the flop and shove any non-A or non-K flop, you are allowing AA and KK to get max value, and losing value to AK. If you check, villain can then shove ANY hand forcing you to then make a decision for 66bb's rather than the 22bb (call 4bet) or 89bb (shove) with no new info.
                                      If you shove over the 5bet, he again plays perfect poker. His 3bet size indicates strength. A 3bet of 33bb is strong as it sets up a flop with 66bb in the pot, with 66BB behind. Strong indication to a flop shove. In my experience, this is never done w a hand that QQ beats most of the time (ie 99-JJ). Yes he could have AK, but I dont like to be the guy who is shoving the 5bet, I like to be the 4bettor, leaving the other player in doubt. Of course we lose value in the long run by not shoving QQ into AK, but the value we lose in that spot, is in turn given back the times we shove into KK and AA.

2) Advertising. In the grand scheme of things, 11bb's is not much, especially when you are analyzing strength in a 200bb pot. Therefore, by folding, you show villain and all others at the table you are capable of 3betting light and folding to the 4bet. I always make a note of someone who 4bet me and I folded and also, folded to a 5bet. If this same hand came up again 2 orbits later, I would shove the QQ. Could he have AA or KK, obviously, but the fact we now have history in a similar spot, I am comfortable shoving. Plus in that spot, I know players who fold AK to the 5bet because of our prior history, thereby allowing is to recoup the lost value in the previous hand and then some.


A few things on the comments on this hand.

I agree that 6max and full ring play differently, but to assume, full ring is a nitfest is wrong imo. Sit down at a 2-4 table with some solid regs, Kiwikaki, plyboy_binny, Gomukyaself, Aurora466, to name a few, they will own you if you think you can just start betting them out of pots.

To those who say full ring is the devil or a waste of time etc etc, thats cool, I respect your opinion. But I know that I can play more tables (usually 12, sometimes 16-20) at 200NL and 400NL and have a much higher winrate than I would playing 4-6 tables of 6max. I also enjoy it more as the variance is not as severe. Just as the variance in 6max is not as severe as Heads up.

-Canuck


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: cambo on June 13, 2009, 12:01:12 AM
cheers andrew :)


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 13, 2009, 01:44:27 AM
1) You are out of position. If you call the flop and shove any non-A or non-K flop, you are allowing AA and KK to get max value, and losing value to AK. If you check, villain can then shove ANY hand forcing you to then make a decision for 66bb's rather than the 22bb (call 4bet) or 89bb (shove) with no new info.
                                      If you shove over the 5bet, he again plays perfect poker. His 3bet size indicates strength. A 3bet of 33bb is strong as it sets up a flop with 66bb in the pot, with 66BB behind. Strong indication to a flop shove. In my experience, this is never done w a hand that QQ beats most of the time (ie 99-JJ). Yes he could have AK, but I dont like to be the guy who is shoving the 5bet, I like to be the 4bettor, leaving the other player in doubt. Of course we lose value in the long run by not shoving QQ into AK, but the value we lose in that spot, is in turn given back the times we shove into KK and AA.

This is all still based on the fact he has AA or KK though.
There is no argument if he has these hands 100% cambo is right.
Open this range up though and its wrong. Add AQ AJ QQ JJ 10 10 to his range and then......
The shove on the no A K flop may get him to fold, the check he shoves we call were probs ahead etc etc

I agree with your v comprehensive post, but as you say later, villain does not show up with AA KK 100% of the time.


Title: Re: Is this a super standard fold??
Post by: Canuck on June 13, 2009, 02:10:35 AM
Open this range up though and its wrong. Add AQ AJ QQ JJ 10 10 to his range and then......
The shove on the no A K flop may get him to fold, the check he shoves we call were probs ahead etc etc

It almost equates to a max/min problem in calculus.

By adding in AQ AJ QQ JJ and TT into his range, you then have to think that shoving is correct. However, the value you lose in the shove is the fact he must then call with a hand like that. IMO he will not call a shove w one of those hands, only one that beats us. This is the crux of my post. We are giving too much fold equity to worse hands, and allowing better hands to get max value.

As for calling preflop and shoving a non-dangerous flop we are still behind all hands that we were behind to preflop, thereby playing the hand out exactly as a preflop shove would do. And hands such as Ax, get away on a low board and the preflop call merely acts as a way for a worse hand to catch up.

folding > shoving > calling