Is this a super standard fold??

[doubleup]

I left a .5/1 table open for a bit, have just looked now, they have played 4 orbits and not seen a single flop.

they are waiting for u to come back

[Simon Galloway]

YBA.  The last thing they need is one more tight ass in the game.

[cambo]

Cambo you complete jam doughnut!

Replace the QQ with KK

Whats your play now?

shove

[StuartHopkin]

Cambo you complete jam doughnut!

Replace the QQ with KK

Whats your play now?

shove

lol

see previous posts

so you fold QQ cus your always up against KK or AA
but if you have KK your happy to shove when the other the nearly always must have AA cus you have two of the kings

cambo, i think you may be my new hero

[cambo]

its pretty standard mate once youve played kkks of hands,  ill get canuck to post on this thread whos now a 2/4 3/6 reg on stars and has over a million hands played at .5/1 and above nin 12 tableing

[EvilPie]

its pretty standard mate once youve played kkks of hands,  ill get canuck to post on this thread whos now a 2/4 3/6 reg on stars and has over a million hands played at .5/1 and above nin 12 tableing

So why bother 3 betting QQ if you're passing to a 4 bet?

Isn't that turning the hand in to a bluff?

[cambo]

tbh im done with this thread canny be arsed ill direct canuck to it maybe ull give him more credit, all standard stuff

[EvilPie]

If it's standard why post it?

I'd guess because he's not 100% sure he should pass.

Not being funny btw. I'm genuinely curious about this.

[cambo]

ok ok last post , i got asked about switching qq-kk the diff is massive , never ever pass kk full ring yes in this spot ull get shown aa a fair amount of the time but kk is never a fold ever but with qq it is with this action at .5/1 , canuck will expalin better than i can

[Canuck]

I play quite a bit of full ring on Stars and this is a fold.

Few reasons:

1) You are out of position. If you call the flop and shove any non-A or non-K flop, you are allowing AA and KK to get max value, and losing value to AK. If you check, villain can then shove ANY hand forcing you to then make a decision for 66bb's rather than the 22bb (call 4bet) or 89bb (shove) with no new info.
                                      If you shove over the 5bet, he again plays perfect poker. His 3bet size indicates strength. A 3bet of 33bb is strong as it sets up a flop with 66bb in the pot, with 66BB behind. Strong indication to a flop shove. In my experience, this is never done w a hand that QQ beats most of the time (ie 99-JJ). Yes he could have AK, but I dont like to be the guy who is shoving the 5bet, I like to be the 4bettor, leaving the other player in doubt. Of course we lose value in the long run by not shoving QQ into AK, but the value we lose in that spot, is in turn given back the times we shove into KK and AA.

2) Advertising. In the grand scheme of things, 11bb's is not much, especially when you are analyzing strength in a 200bb pot. Therefore, by folding, you show villain and all others at the table you are capable of 3betting light and folding to the 4bet. I always make a note of someone who 4bet me and I folded and also, folded to a 5bet. If this same hand came up again 2 orbits later, I would shove the QQ. Could he have AA or KK, obviously, but the fact we now have history in a similar spot, I am comfortable shoving. Plus in that spot, I know players who fold AK to the 5bet because of our prior history, thereby allowing is to recoup the lost value in the previous hand and then some.


A few things on the comments on this hand.

I agree that 6max and full ring play differently, but to assume, full ring is a nitfest is wrong imo. Sit down at a 2-4 table with some solid regs, Kiwikaki, plyboy_binny, Gomukyaself, Aurora466, to name a few, they will own you if you think you can just start betting them out of pots.

To those who say full ring is the devil or a waste of time etc etc, thats cool, I respect your opinion. But I know that I can play more tables (usually 12, sometimes 16-20) at 200NL and 400NL and have a much higher winrate than I would playing 4-6 tables of 6max. I also enjoy it more as the variance is not as severe. Just as the variance in 6max is not as severe as Heads up.

-Canuck

[cambo]

cheers andrew

[StuartHopkin]

1) You are out of position. If you call the flop and shove any non-A or non-K flop, you are allowing AA and KK to get max value, and losing value to AK. If you check, villain can then shove ANY hand forcing you to then make a decision for 66bb's rather than the 22bb (call 4bet) or 89bb (shove) with no new info.
                                      If you shove over the 5bet, he again plays perfect poker. His 3bet size indicates strength. A 3bet of 33bb is strong as it sets up a flop with 66bb in the pot, with 66BB behind. Strong indication to a flop shove. In my experience, this is never done w a hand that QQ beats most of the time (ie 99-JJ). Yes he could have AK, but I dont like to be the guy who is shoving the 5bet, I like to be the 4bettor, leaving the other player in doubt. Of course we lose value in the long run by not shoving QQ into AK, but the value we lose in that spot, is in turn given back the times we shove into KK and AA.

This is all still based on the fact he has AA or KK though.
There is no argument if he has these hands 100% cambo is right.
Open this range up though and its wrong. Add AQ AJ QQ JJ 10 10 to his range and then......
The shove on the no A K flop may get him to fold, the check he shoves we call were probs ahead etc etc

I agree with your v comprehensive post, but as you say later, villain does not show up with AA KK 100% of the time.

[Canuck]

Open this range up though and its wrong. Add AQ AJ QQ JJ 10 10 to his range and then......
The shove on the no A K flop may get him to fold, the check he shoves we call were probs ahead etc etc

It almost equates to a max/min problem in calculus.

By adding in AQ AJ QQ JJ and TT into his range, you then have to think that shoving is correct. However, the value you lose in the shove is the fact he must then call with a hand like that. IMO he will not call a shove w one of those hands, only one that beats us. This is the crux of my post. We are giving too much fold equity to worse hands, and allowing better hands to get max value.

As for calling preflop and shoving a non-dangerous flop we are still behind all hands that we were behind to preflop, thereby playing the hand out exactly as a preflop shove would do. And hands such as Ax, get away on a low board and the preflop call merely acts as a way for a worse hand to catch up.

folding > shoving > calling