blonde poker forum

OK here goes - usual format -I will do it in stages - discussion inbetween

Situation - level 2 (25 mins in) - villain been reasonably active in level 1

I have only played 1 hand where i have overcalled an EP raise with 55 (3 prior callers) and didnt get past flop as i missed - both players start hand with circa 4k

................. and finally, please dont say fold pre!

blinds 15/30

Your cards   2d Ad

i raise UTG +1 to 90  - get flatted by villain in SB - i decided it could be any 2 (top 50% hands)

Flop

 8d  5c  Td

I obv love it but we are so deep i am not looking to go bust if i miss. Anyway - i decide to press on and try to rep my monster AA/KK and c bet 150 into a 210 pot after he checked it to me.

HOWEVER - he min raised me to 300!

What do you do? - i will tell you my thought processes after some feedback

Flatting seems good to me.   ;hide;

Clarify stack sizes pls

Yeh think u should flat- problem is if he's aggro as you say he is, he'll bet the turn if you miss and then you probably have to give it up

[ x ] fold pre
[ x ] check back on flop

b/3b/5b all in imo

I gave this very serious consideration!

No need to delay on this part of the reveal it gets better.

The reason i didnt go with the flushy line - is that I am putting him either on a flopped set 888 or 555 (kinda rule out 10's - i think he raises pre) - or complete and utter air and he is making a play as cheaply as possible to 'feel me out'.  He is never folding the set, and i miss value from him bluffing air. Taking the flopped set line as a serious option, I call and reassess.

George - i dont mind checking back on the flop - but you are only ever playing a small pot, and i could end up with a well disguised nuts if he does have a slow played hand.

I also like the call, because if he has a set - i think on the turn being  oop he has to play his hand 'face up' by putting in a good bet (75% pot) - which I can still call relatively safely given stack sizes

so summary

pot is now 810

stacks are both circa 3.5k

What do you have him on?
Is the call OK given the relative strength of the hand?

I will update with turn card and action in 30 mins

you back in to a wheel n bust him

[  ] This sure answers my questions

no spoliers from me

OK.....................

The turn comes  3h

villain leads 400 into the 810 pot

I now have flush draw , straight draw and an over card?

What do you have him on?

What is your action now ?

pot 1210 with his bet - i have 3.5k behind

Fold pre (I know you said not to mention, but :))

Flatting his raise on the flop seems right to me

Guess you have to flat the turn now as well...

I have him on a made hand, maybe 555, maybe 2 pair. Stronger than tp good kicker anyway

Don't think your overcard is live

Reckon you have 12 outs most likely and are a 3-1 dog with a card to come.

Fold pre-flop  :D 

This is one of the few times I think the flat/flat is ok.  The reason is that like Tighty, I have him on a fairly good made hand - good enough for him to go broke with, which means you are getting an attractive price to draw.  If you had serious doubt that you would be getting paid should you hit, then it is obv not so good.  One of those situations where you actually want to be up against a good hand rather than a bad hand...

OK

The final and concluding part:

I flat call the turn for all of the above reasons. It still left me with 3k which would be plenty if i missed. I had originally had him on a set, however I started to doubt this with his turn bet. I seemed a little small to me. But for the point of caution - i proceeded as thou he did have one.

I also thought that if the flush came - he had no need to put me on it and therefore he might also bluff at it being first to act.

OK................................................

clearly i dont hit the flush or the straight otherwise this reveal makes no sense

The river comes a puke worthy  Aspades

He leads 1.2k into a 1500 pot

whats your action? - calling leaves you with 1800

Fold.

I can't see you are ahead. Fold.

I bet you called and were ahead!

At any point in this hand did you think your A gave you outs? If you did it would add weight to suggestions about playing the hand more aggressively from the start. But you didn't think that, and it's the reason you decided to play the hand more passively. I think if we did decide the A is a winner...now that it's arrived...after basing our strat around it not being a winner...calling would suck.

call

shove and watch him fold like a girlie

Pls don't!

OK

well the A kinda threw me. I went back thru the hand and decided that the turn bet wasnt enough to protect a set (which you would natrually do), and that coupled with the number of hands he had played prob gave me some show down vakue - so i called!

He had the 10. and a 7

Still not sure about my call - it just felt right at the time. I guess 50% of the time here i get shown 555

get it in on the flop, so many combodraws you have crushed. Failing that i dont mind call call call line but i think u stack so many hands u have crushed if u get it in n the flop w bdsd+nfd+over.

You think his turn bet wasn't big enough to protect a set....but when he MIN-RAISES the flop you think he has a set because his bet is small?

Several things

If you read my comments on the flop action I clearly say that he could be 'feeling me out' - or maybe have a set. Obv with my specific holding im not folding but i could easy fold a middling pair to that bet. What i said was - that on the 'range' of holdings i put him on - on one of them surely has to be the set.

However, when i call he also must reasses his postion. I think if i am holding AA KK then i re raise the flop - so he can think that too. Therefore he must consider me holding the suited A or any xdxd hand.

His bet on the turn is more a c-bet bluff than a protecting bet - trying to take the pot if I am say a donkey not letting go of AKo. If he has the set - he wants to get max value whilst protecting against the flush so would bet more like 75% of the pot here - if not the whole pot given its size and the stacks.

My only problem was the river. He didnt seem to scared of the A. That was what made it a tough call as he could easy play his set for value. However, a good player could also check a set here to allow a missed flush to bluff  - or a stubbborn AK player to V bet. As I put him in the tricky/good bracket from his early activity - i decided it was a call.

I am sure against other players i could be wrong 50% of the time here - and I am not saying it is an amazing call - but i think i thought it through well.

Well dude I'm not sure you've thought it through as well as you think you have. A couple of examples for you to consider. In the above post you say "he must consider me holding the suited A or any xdxd hand"  Yet on the previous page you say "I also thought that if the flush came - he had no need to put me on it"....either he does or he doesn't put you on a flush draw.

Next, "If he has the set - he wants to get max value whilst protecting against the flush so would bet more like 75% of the pot here". Why would he bet 75% of the pot with a set but not bet 75% with top pair for the same reasons? Why would this guy drop his bet size to 50% of the pot with top pair? You say he prob doesn't put you on an overpair cos you would have raised the flop. So why wouldn't he bet his top pair the same way he'd bet a set to protect against your flush draw? If you can't make a distinction you can't call the river with any confidence imo. You say the bet size is because the bet is a c-bet bluff...but it isn't a bluff...he has you beat. I would be interested to know if you call his river bet "bluff" if the deuce arrives?

Next, you discount the "flushy line" on the flop because you put villain on a set or air. Your oppo had neither of those holdings. There are others as well but I don't want you to think I'm having a pop at you.

Thread delivers but not in the way intended!

Mantis  - what would you have put him on?

you seem to have all the answers when the hand is revealed.

you no doubt put him on 10 7.

Just to recount - i havent re read my thread but i am pretty certain that i said i gave flushys line VERY SERIOUS CONDISERATION. The reason I didnt go with it is because he wasnt laying down the set - which I had to consider he may have had - dont I?

OK - so you think i made a spewy call - thats fine. You are entitled to your opinion.

I guess the thread is more of a 'readjusting on the river thread'.

Nah dude, I don't think I have all the answers. I am interested in discussing the hand and that's why I posted my thoughts and asked some questions. It seems like you posted the hand to showcase your skillz rather than to genuinely dissect your strat...because when holes have been pointed out you've got a bit mardy about it. This is what PHA is about though. Discussion about a hand to improve one's thinking. In order to get better you really don't want everyone to applaud your call, it's no use to you, you want people to challenge the call. If you don't want people to challenge the call why post? What would you hope to learn from lots of nc posts?

FWIW I don't put the guy on 10-7. I already said I wouldn't call the river as played. The fact villain bets 1.2k into 1.5k on the end is WTF with a 10 imo. Why doesn't he check to call instead? That way he gets the very realistic missed f/d bluffing. He only gets called by better the way he's played it. And I thought villain was tricky/good? I don't think your call is spewy but it's definitely speculative imo...you can't really know where you are...and trying to pretend otherwise is only kidding yourself.

[ ] sure posted this hand to show my skills
[ ] sure said i knew i was 100% ahead when i called

oh wait!

At no point in this thread have i said 100% i knew what he had. I even got it wrong - oh yes put those proud hand reading skills out on display for all to see!  All i have done is tried to verbalise what i thought. In my final thread I even say i believe the call is 50 50.

I wanted to hear other peoples thoughts - which you pretty much avoided till this post.

[X] Sure know how to use check boxes.

bugger

[  ] This thread sure didnt deliver in the end