blonde poker forum

APAT tournament at the Gala Maybury last weekend.  The standard of the first dealer at the table was shocking.  She insisted on moving chips from in front of players into the middle before the betting was done.  This caused confusion and put me on tilt, as she refused to leave the bets where they were despite me asking her to on several occasions, one just after she'd ballsed up a pot.

Anyway, she left and a 'better' dealer arrived.  He could at least work out how to check that everyone had paid their antes, and left the bets where they were until after the betting was done.  However, he made one serious blunder that compounded a mistake that lead to the floor being called over to make a ruling.

In the hand in question, UTG makes a raise to 2,000.  Three players fold, and the next player who has been raising relentlessly pre-flop throws in three 500 chips, and announces raise.  He obviously didn't see the initial raise to 2,000.  Anyway, there was some debate if he said raise before or after the chips went in.  Everyone seemed to agree it was after the chips went in that he said raise.  So my immediate thoughts were that he has to throw in another 500 chip and make up the call.

However, the dealer decided that it was a mistake and returned the chips whilst grabbing the players cards and dragging them into the muck.  The player who raised tried to get the dealer to stop what he was doing and wanted to ask for a ruling, and the floor was called over.

What's your ruling?

This is dependent on the card room.

I'm not too fussed on whether he said raise first, when the chips hit, etc. It's pretty obvious he was intending to raise to 1500, so let's assume all this is fine.

I'm happy that the player has the option of doing what he likes. He may fold, he may call, or he may raise.

The question is what happens to his chips. Some card rooms will say that the chips must stay in the pot (DTD springs to mind). Others will let you take the chips back.

Ask to see the house rules. If they don't mention that chips must stay in then you can take them back.

This happened to me in the £50 f/o on the sunday from the sky poker tour.

We had 2 tables left.

Woman went all in for ~10k. Kid a few positions later says "raise to 7k". He's then informed that she's already moved in. He decides to fold, but must leave his 7k in the pot. Which is fine by me as I've got AA in the big blind :D

re-read op and try again imo

What were the blinds?  I'd make him raise the minimum.  So depending on that card rooms policy, either make his bet 4,000 total or twice the initial raise.  So if blinds were 300-600 for example, the UTG raise is 1400, so I'd make the guy put in 3,400.

It's his fault if he hasn't noticed there's been a raise.  So once he announces raise he's obligated to raise.

?

I'm ignoring the end bit about the dealer trying to muck the cards. That's just daft, and I hope he was stopped before they were mucked.

Nope.

Oh. Well in that case:

a) Shoot the dealer
b) Give the player his 1500 back
c) Find a spade
d) Dig a suitable hole behind the casino
e) Put body into hole
f) Fill hole
g) Resume tournament

utg raises to 2k. mp then throws in 1500. htf is that not a call? you want to give him the option to fold or raise now? wtf? have you flipped? or maybe I have? I really don't know anymore

this, he has announced raise so its min raise all the way

I agree with this though now we know the cards were mucked by the dealer

Even if he says raise after he's thrown the chips in?

His intention to raise is obvious enough here that I'd make him min raise.

it was only the consensus that he threw the chips in before announcing raise, if you can say deffo either way it can change the ruling.

if not its a simple call

He said raise as he was throwing the chips in though. So there's 2 things we can do:

Let him reconsider his action. I'd do this. (There's then the issue of does he get chips back if he folds, but lets ignore that)
or
Hold him to a min raise.

Obviously if he just throws 3x500 in with no verbal it's a call.

lol live poker

You can't give the guy his chips back.  That causes far more problems than it solves. 

where are you getting that from?


I'm assuming everyone includes the dealer. how can that be anything but a call?

It definitely did.

The chips went back to the player, the dealer auto-mucks his cards despite the protestations of the UTG raiser, and the floor is called.

The floor decides that the player must call, AND gets the player to confirm which were his cards.  These are then returned from the muck, and the hand continued.

Discuss.

Yeah, I've misread it.

*slaps self*

It's an obvious call now I reread it.

Ruling sounds sensible.

It's an obvious dealer error here. I have no problem with doing what we can to correct it.

Had the dealer not ballsed it up then the action would have been a call.

lol. would've saved a lot of time if you'd re-read when I told you

[ ] APAT Scotland sounds like it was a really good weekend

lol, I assumed i'd misread the bit about the dealer mucking the hand, as i didn't think any dealer could possibly be daft enough to do this. don't know why i assumed this tho given the standard of some dealers i've had to endure..

'Twas a cracking weekend, despite some of the dealers, the loud-mouthed idiots, the buffet, the fact it was in Scotland...

Kinfishy, what a blatant I went to Scotland anti brag.

You knew full well the answer to all of this its straight forward.

If he didnt say raise before the chips in its a call. Full stop
If the dealer mucks his cards he is a sea nut.
The obv remedy is to return the cards.

/end thread

\open thread

await abuse from gatso

clown is a clown

Thank you kind sir

The reason I posted this, is that the dealer royally ballsed it up - but I liked the ruling from the floor (he wasn't the TD, just one of the more competent dealers, who therefore wasn't actually dealing at that time...) as it was based on common sense and in the spirit of the game.

Not sure the ruling would have been the same elsewhere, which was why I posed the question.

Hopefully most other establishments don't have dealers that get themselves into this mess.

There's thousands of potential scenarios that can occur in poker. The rules cover a lot of the more common ones explicitly, but there's always bizarre things that can happen.

You'd hope in such a situation you had a competent TD who could make a fair ruling in the spirit of the game, which I believe is what has happened here.

I cant even think of any other outcome.
And if anyone says anything about card touching the muck being anything more than a pile the cards sit in.....................

Wasnt a riverboat dealer was it?

I don't really like that they dug through the muck and returned the cards.

Why not?

Perhaps it's just me, but I can't help but feel that it's a little open to abuse. As far as I am concerned, the muck is the point of no return. If the cards are in there, then it's too late. If you're going to do something in the interests of fairness, then I'd give the player in question his chips back if the hand was mucked accidentally. But let him reclaim them? Eh. I just don't like it.

I thought APAT had their own regular TD?

Is that fair to the player who made the initial raise and had a caller, who now no longer has to call?

The casinos provide the TD for APAT events. 

Not for ages

Speaking on a purely personal level, I would be happier without the caller than having someone get to reclaim cards out of the muck. It seems the fairest conclusion in my eyes, given this error strewn hand.

I've never been to a venue that has ever allowed the reclamation of a hand after it has been drawn into the muck, and I've seen people re-raise pre and have their hand mucked. Which was AA. The solution was to return his chips, not dig out the hand.

Now, given that the precise same thing might have happened here, do you think our original raiser is going to be unhappy if that were the case? Entirely redundant point, I know, but that's the kind of thinking I am trying to avoid. Fairest doesn't mean it's going to be ideal for everyone, but I think that's the way I'd have settled the situation.

irrespective of the preflop balls up etc, isn't it the player's responsibilty to protect his cards, even from an over zealous dealer?

Therefore i would have thought the ruling would be to declare his hand dead (mucked) and leave his chips (ie a call) in the middle. Not sure i like retrieving cards out of the muck at all.

i hate the ruling of people getting cards back, i was always uber strict on it if its in the muck its gone, if a player folds his blind by mistatke even if its just come over the line its gone.

no player should ever get cards back

Glad I am not the only person that doesn't like this.

He was the one who called the floor.

Yes,  but that doesn't mean he called the floor because he wanted the other guy to get his cards back from the muck, does it?

I suspect he was seeking a bit of conflict resolution because clearly the situation has grown out of control.

taking cards from the muck is terrible. can anyone who supports it please tell me what they would do in the following situation-

exactly the same as op except mp liberal raiser was running over the table so much that when he thought he was raising this time he did it blind. utg+1 decided to go for a piss when the floor gets called.

so now you ask mp what his cards were. he doesn't know. we can't even figure it out as the other guy who mucked has walked off.

so now what do you rule?? you can't have a different ruling here just 'cos the guy was playing blind

FYP

::)

lol Scottish Gala casinos

I actually think their slogan is "We're just shit" (Coincidentally much the same slogan as the National footie side, and Dundee have)

The Maybury are usually pretty good, Id assume any dealer mistakes made wouldve been from dealers from other Gala casino's.  I had a Dundee dealer that I saw made a few small mistakes.  Im assuming the dealer in questions hands got chopped off for reaching over to take a players cards from him?

TBF the delaer on my table was actually fine, except he kept saying "no more bets" after everyone had acted and before he would deal the next card.