blonde poker forum

This is from the start of Day 3. I will add information on the hand in subsequant posts..

Apprix 100 players remain. Chip Average is about 100k.

I started the day with 90k but have chipped up early, I have been extremely active, raising and 3betting alot (it is a very good table) I haven't lost a hand in the first level and a half and I'm upto about 170k. Blinds are 500-1000/100.

I am sb, Devilfish is the bb.

I have quite an interesting relationship with Devilfish. He teases me relentlessly about virtually everything. I think he sees me as overly aggressive and a bit of a nutter. However he obviously thinks I have some ability as he has bought some of my action on a couple of occasions.

He has had an amazing start to the day. He has been given two double ups on a platter and is now one the chip leaders in the tournament with nearly 400k.

He has totally avoided playing a pot with me so far, but has just been moaning about me raising the button on his sb three times.

It is folded to me on and I have QTo.

What should I do?

raise to 2700, your good enough to play this hand deep stacked OOP vs devilfish

raise it up...

Yah raise to similar amount to Trigg said

Pass

youre passing to a player you know had 400bb and didnt make the deep stages of the comp?

Yep I'm never passing... Devilfish has the power to spew chips easily to you in many spots...

D'oh. I just checked the structure and I got the blinds wrong.. apologies.

It was 1000-2000/300.

The stacks are correct though.

Still opening up to about 4700 here...

In a vacuum I would agree, raising is the best option.

But I fancied Devilfish might well 3bet me very wide as he had just been moaning about noone standing up to me and me stealing his blind liberally. I hadn't shown a hand to this point.

So I made up the blind and he checked..

Flop came over AJ8 with 2 spades.

Hero?

Sorry misread the op. Thought we were button having raised his sb 3 times previously.

I was thinking of giving him a break.

As we are actually SB to his BB I now fold but slightly quicker.

I like calling pre. On the flop I think c-calling is best because the turn card can give you lots of different stories to tell whereas leading the A-high board lacks credibility and leaves you vulnerable to being played back at now or on later streets.

i like the c/c here.

this is the problem with completing pre. Dave knows you are a tricky player so knows, limp/raising limp/calling a big hand in the sb is in your locker, therefore id guess he would check his option with a lot of rag aces, leaves us guessing all hand, cause he likes to get tricky himself.

I have a feeling we're about to get in to a rather large hole here.

With our outs I think c/c is the best play on this flop.

Thankfully with the flat pre we're not getting involved in a big pot.

I'd be a bit cautious of Mr Fish laying a trap here with Ax though and looking at strangling 3 streets of value out of us.

If we check call to the river I'm not looking at bluffing when we miss.

I would 100% raise in this spot, there are 5700 chips in the pot before it gets to us i would make it 5200/5300 so cost us say 4300 to try and pick up 5700 which is obv a pretty cool bet as he cant really be 3betting that wide, obv he peels sometimes but thats ok too as our hand flops well.

If he does 3bettng like a maniac because we keep opening the SB that's cool too as its pretty easy to exploit.

Dont want to hijack your thread Keith but what is the easiest way to exploit this Flushy.
Had an aggro guy to my left who kept 3 betting me last night - i eventually made a stand and he had KK - GG me.
Obv easy to exploit with decent hole cards but what if we are fairly card dead?

Just means he's 3 betting very wide so he won't usually have much of a hand. Also usually he misses and we can take his chips even if we are card dead. Our cards don't matter.

When he gets KK he will quite difficult to exploit though. This is what he relies on if he's a good 3 bettor. Create the image of being a tool and then exploit the exploiter when he finally gets a hand.

Yeah, the maths regarding raising pre with Q-10 look appealing. But in this example villain's on a heater and is making comments about aggro hero. With the chips, the position, the table talk etc...rushing villain's going to give aggro hero business most of the time imo. So you're just looking at playing a bigger pot with lots going against you. No need when you've got twice the average imo. The factors and the villain mean big implied odds if you hit. I think calling pre has merit.

There's no point inflating the pot to let him just flat in position and we don't want to play a 3 bet oop with QTo, i'm not folding though so I would probably limp call and play post.

Hmm. do we have a spade? w/Qs I might bet the flop. Also if he thinks we will be trappy with our big hands then he may check alot of flops back to both pot control and deceive us, so with a double gutter here  binking a non spade turn would be nice. Again I don't think I want to be bet folding this hand on the flop so would probably look to c/c.

You can either call and c/r a b3b different flops which you're calling range is likely to have hit. You can also with deeper stacks 4 bet him light. Another way to exploit him is to open a narrower range.

So you would just raise fold pre here?

flat pre then check the flop with the intention of check-raising if he bets.

If you do get the chance to check raise the flop it looks strong to him - you could easily have a big hand like Ax or better that you intended to limp-3bet pre, or have otherwise hit this flop really hard. Now if he comes over the top on the flop you can assume that your (6 true outs) hand is crushed and you sigh fold.

If he checks the flop behind - great. A free card going to the turn and the pot is under control.

I much prefer this line to betting the flop because i) it looks less strong and he can therefore raise you with a wider range, often you will be bluffed off yr hand; and ii) if he flats WTF? You're now in a big pot acting first against a guy with a very wide range and there are only 6 cards you really want to see.

What about the times when you check-raise flop, and he flats? Now you're playing an even bigger pot oop, and now you desperately need to hit your outs. You can't just take off on the turn, and checking the turn is probably saying, 'hey devilfish, i tried, i failed and now the pot is yours.' Me no like.

Yeah me no rike flop c/r because of turn card horribleness.

You have an aggressive nutter image, you have been v active, your oppo has twice your chips, you have no hand. I don't think c-raising the flop is a good idea.

I hate c/r this flop when we are so deep.

If I had 12-15 bb's I would absolutely make this play.

With nearly 100 bigs, no thanks.

Anyways, I led out for 3k and he called.

Turn card, offsuit 9.


 ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana;

What now?

lead again imo...

rotflmfao sorry the bananas have got me..




rotflmfao

now check call or even better check and let him check behind

yeah because we are so deep is why with the described image i'd be playing a small pot. As played do the banana dance and bet 1/2 - 2/3 pot.



rotflmfao sorry still laughing at all the bananas.





rotflmfao

oh the reason i check the turn is unless a scare card comes on river you want him bluffing your river bet

Funnily enough I did that exact dance when the 9 of clubs came off the deck.

did he see? ;carlocitrone;

raise pre c/r 3 streets

He was too busy desperately trying to chat up the gorgeous massage girl.

i would say fold pre and chat up the massage girl yourself but you might get slapped for that

i on other hand being single would do the above

oooh nah she wont be as fit as the brazilian girl at the vic!!  ;gobsmacked;



Ah if he didn't see then we're golden. Move in and stare him down!

we fire again ldo, make it 4500-5k

I bet 7k.

Devilfish makes it 28k.

After a bit more of this: ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana;

What next?

remind me Keith

We have Q 10 off blind on blind

board reads A J 8 9 two spades?


you've bet flop, 'Fish has called

you've bet turn, 'Fish has raised


Yes? Proceed!

make it 65k

Totally correct. although you forgot the  ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana;

Definitly fire again on the turn,we have perfect image for this hand

Oh hi der fish,i prob jam the turn thought our starting stack was 100k not 170k oops,raise to 74k as fish prob has Ax,hopefully Axs or 2 pair minimum here and since he sees you as a nutter although he knows your good he knows your capable of bluffing this board

I'm not so keen on flatting his raise as we now look super strong and most rivers would prob lead to him folding a weak Ace if we bet out and he'll prob check behind if we check to c/r basically don't think we'll get him to put anymore in on the river if we flat the turn

Raise it to 60k ?

call. anything but call is crazy.

ask dealer to spread pot................

ask devil how much he is playing.................

tank...................

Jam

make most of ur image

(devilfish is no mug - hes gonna be super suspicious of the call. Also even if the river is a brick you might struggle to get paid  much as you are first to act. If he has a hand or even a middling holding you get paid by jamming the turn).

The trouble with flatting this raise as I see it is what are you then going to do on the river as a bet looks well suss.

If it was me playing i'd have a much tighter image then keith's and then i would call and look to take him to valuetown on the river,but with keiths aggro image won't it just look like we have a monster if we flat it or more importantly wont the fish call a rr with most of his image that he would raise with in the 1st place,and if the fish is on a total bluff then once we flat he's not putting anything more into the pot.

flat and snap check/check blind on the riv, agree with alex, 3betting the turn is suicide.

why would getting more money with nuts be suicide?
if you check and he checks river then surely thats worse than 3 betting turn?

huh?

so we potentially make nothing from holding the nuts?

I know you are expecting devilfish to pounce on the weakness, and i dont think the line is terrible, but you are relying on devilfish having nothing to bet as  a bluff on the end for you to get paid - and he can also name his own price. Surely his raise on the turn suggests he might have something in which case we should try and max out.

On the turn he isnt passing a set, top 2 (or any 2pr hands maybe) possibly a trappy play big ace, or  a big flush draw or nut flush combo draw.

By calling the raise you are letting him get there with some of his holdings - and the baord could end up so bad that he might not put any more money in after you check.

Cant see that line being the way to maximise unless he has air - and i dont think he does. Even so, I assume you are c/r ai on the river to a blank and he isnt calling with any bluff hand

I'd flat the raise and lead out on the river.

But what hands would you do this with and what hand do you think the fish will call with on the river that he wouldn't call/jam a rr on the turn,imo flatting the turn and either leading or c/r the river is a much stronger line and less likely to get anymore chips out of the fish.

Imo the fish's range here is Axs,2pr or a Set all of which i think he will get it in with against keith on the turn,if the rivers a brick i think he can get away from a lot of his range that he would get it in with on the turn

Good thread and i look for to reading the next level of thinking of why flatting is best in this spot

i am thinking the fish could have a pair and a straight draw here

something like T9 or JT
or he could have spade draw with the T

from the line he has taken the only way money is going in on river is if he hits


get it in now and do this by allowing him wiggle room to shove over top with his semi bluff

unless you want to play pot control with so many chips behind

flat the turn plssssssssssssss

check the river

This

he is literally NEVER going to semibluffshove after we 3b the turn.

Compare his turn call/jam over a 3bet range to his river value bet/bluff range and its burning money to bet/3bet turn. Our image is aggressive, not maniacal.

Only reason to be 3b jamming the turn would be for protection (cant really be for value v other made hands since he will prolly fold most 2 pairs to this action), but with 1 card to come holding the nuts, protection = overrated.

I flat called.

Now the key moment in the hand.

The river was the Ks. (There is no smileys of banana's shooting themselves).

What now?

c/c

Yeah this

cry and wish you had jammed the turn

I flat the turn as well, agree with check calling the river...

Draw heavy board , why give him a free card oop , rather win a smallish pot than than lose a big un.

Norrrrr results orientated not ftw

I was undecided on what the best option is but since players who's game i respect are saying it's better to flat I now think flatting is the best option but more in depth reasoning for why flatting is much better please or has alex said it all ?

Oh and PHA FTMFW good hand keith

"PHA FTMFW" what does this mean?

Poker hand analysis board for the mother******* win,just people slate it when people are harsh about bad beat threads but when a good thread like this is put up it shows it's one of the better parts of the forum,imho

pmsl at bookie and guy. Why the fk do we want to win the pot on the turn, if he has 2 pair we want to get the the river ldo.

Now c/c id   b/f vs some opponents who are thinking players and who wouldnt raise less than a flush on the riv.

Sure is possible to have a house.

meh flush.

The plan was to c/r the river. Obv I didn't want to see a spade or a pair up.

Now with the spade peeling off, I changed my plan and led out for 32k. It was an attempt to get maximum value from him if he had 2 pair or a smaller straight or even a stubborn ace which would check behind on this river.

I really don't know if this was a mistake or not..

Anyways he now raised to 95k.

FML..

IN FACT, cant really see him having a flush here unless it was flushdraw + 1/2pair on the turn. Could possibly B/f here... because your line of calling his turn raise could well be a flush draw with a pair, so if u lead the riv he is wary of the flush and would only raise the riv with a good flush himself. Maybe bet/fold is best maybe c/c

c/c!

i check call


as played i think i bet fold

nice rub -

for the record - just about 1 page ago i stated exactly what I would do and why i would do it so how the fk is that results orienated?

As for the others?

Why take the pot down on the turn?

1. because there is half our stack in there already, and we can pick it up (i know we have the nuts see below)
2. there are quite a few cards we dont wanna see (just before people start quoting ranges he is in the blinds and we have completed - so assume ATC)
3. Because this hand is far from being played in a vaccum. Detailed analysis in OP suggests Devil fish could easily think we are at it and snap with his entire range that he "thinks is ahead"
4. We dont have to make a shit decission OOP on the river - with something like 30% of the deck being scare cards
4. River options - c/c - well ok but we arent in control.......... c/rai - he aint calling - .............bet fold (to the flush or prd board obv) - well that sure is value


 

Why are people so aggressive if you don't agree with them,i just seemed to me you where proving that your play is the right one to make by how this specific hand panned out instead of being open to the fact there maybe a better line to take that's all :)

Also we don't have anywhere near half our stack in there

there might be a better line to take but i didnt like the line camel took from turn onwards

but i think line has more to do with camels image and his self awareness of his image

with my image checking the turn and betting the river would be a much better line

obvs after the scare card on river it would be check calling the river

Don't forget that villain's v-bet/bluff bet on the river never doubles us up. It's gonna be worth around 30k cos he never calls our jam with a worse hand on a c-jammed brick river...well no hand he wouldn't have shipped the turn with anyway. Also you can figure that a lot of river cards are gonna be action killers so you may not even get that. Forget protection as the only reason to be jamming the turn because I agree that is overrated. Camel trading-off an aggro image, with a very well disguised hand + the history of DevilFish calling jams and having easy chips put in his lap through the day + his 2x camel's chips widens the range he'll get chips in on the turn imo. I think if you want to play for stacks the turn is the time to try. Also, yeah the board could pair or spade the river and you have to make a proper tough decision. That's a lot of things to trade for that extra 30k. I'm stll undecided but I don't think jamming turn is burning money.

Dubai is now reading this thread.

I'd like to hear his opinion.

sure was aggro

you called me results oriented - clearly im not if i say up front what i would do! -

then you change your mind because better players say there is a diff lline. Im not for 1 second saying my route is perfect - but at least i explain what i would do and why.................. which i believe is the idea in this forum............. not change your mind because others say so.

As for the stack - thought we were playing 100k - realised it is 170

there is still 48k in the middle on the turn - i raise to commit instead of jamming - up to say 88k

He'd prob check, see Devilfish put out a bet, get some sparkle out and do it on the table, then call that bet.

I also gave an opinion to why i also thought 3b the turn was the best move and still feel that was the best play as haven't had enough info to say otherwise so haven't changed my mind yet but the fact the river was a bad card isn't relevant to the discussion,my results orientated comment was just the fact you used this one specific hand to prove your point but fair enough lets move on eh

sure did

Is it possible that you're both a pair of sneeky b******s with Q 10 but he's now repping the flush?

Both your lines look strong and like you're trying to hang each other out to dry.

I still prefer the pass pre tbh but when you get that miracle turn I hate the flat.

If he's on a draw we're giving him a free card to hit it and we're not getting paid if he misses.

If he's got 2 pair or a set he's not passing anything now which he's going to call our vb on the river especially with position so I prefer to raise now.

How many brick cards are there for the river compared to potential danger cards?

We know he's either got a good made hand now or a good draw. That means any spade any K, any Q or any pair up could see us face a tough decision on the river.

Without using all my fingers I figure that's not too far off half the deck that slows us down on the river so I can't see any reason not to put in a big raise on the turn.

As played Check/call the river. Horrible card and killed all the dancing bananas  :(

I think there is very little chance he calls a 3 bet with anything except T7 or QT on the turn.

If the 70% chance comes in and a blank falls on the river he has to be given the chance of bluffing again (if he's bluffing) or value betting the river.

I think flatting on the turn is definitely the right play.

I'm far from sure my lead out bet on the river is good though.

I think to assume he is raise folding his whole range except QT and T7 on the turn has got to be wrong.

I think there is <1% he has a set or two pair which include an ace. He would definitely have raised preflop with any hand which makes these hands (maybe he would have checked behind with AA but seriously that's it).

I think he folds hands like 98, J8, J9 to a three bet.

Two pair with spades is a possibility but given it's devilfish I think he raises on the flop with pair + flush draw.

did you ever find out his hand?

My initial reaction was to snap fold when he raised.

But then I thought, would he really play a flush draw like this? It is Devilfish after all.

I dunno, maybe I'm a station and a non believer but I called and he insta mucked!

 ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana;

I'll ask him what he had next time I see him.

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee



you still scare me


5 betting scotty nyguen that way in the vic

i have never recovered

Still unsure about this hand. I think the river is messy business. Plan to check, plan changes, v-bet, v-bet raised, not part of the plan, think fold, think again, gamble villain doesn't have a flush, tentative call. Who's good enough to peg when villain does and doesn't have a flush in these spots? One of the advantages of jamming the turn is you avoid this type of uncertainty. I don't think that should be ignored when thinking about the turn action. Those that say check the river can just as easy find themselves answering a jam. I'm still undecided about the turn action because I think you only get this flurry of betting if the river is one of the danger cards you want to avoid. If it's a brick you only seem to make one bet when you check. Is the avoidance of this shit on the river worth that, if indeed you get it at all?

The plan is not to avoid uncertainty. The plan is to maximise what we can make versus the polarised range that the opponent has.

pretty much perfect

only if u can realise the value

I think leading out on the river was almost certainly a mistake.

Against Devilfish not a bad mistake (as he proved by bluff raising the river), but against most players it would be terribad.

Yes, some have said b/f the river is the best line. That isn't maxing the value of this hand.

No but check calling or check shipping rivers IS the maxing the value as long as you flat the turn.

Unless you're beat and then you've lost value again. Flatting the turn doesn't guarantee value because there's still two ways to lose on the river. You've also got to figure villain never has a hand he ships the turn with or he never semi-bluffs a 3-bet (even though he spews 92k on the river) to say flatting the turn is best. I don't know how much value there really is on the river tbh. But you could be right.

[/quote]

Why are people so aggressive if you don't agree with them,i just seemed to me you where proving that your play is the right one to make by how this specific hand panned out instead of being open to the fact there maybe a better line to take that's all :)


[/quote]

Lol thats what forums are all about saying what you think without having to look someone in the face

keith i think u made at least 2 mistakes in the hand, 1) not raising pre 2) not c/c river, just goes to show how bad devilfish actually is.

Calling pre was ok imo, there were a lot of factors which suggested the raise would be ineffective. Swap the stacks round and I think it'd be a mistake not to raise though. I don't even think leading the river is a mistake if you've already decided to call a raise. You did call the raise because you don't think villain plays a f/d that way and that's something you can maybe decide before leading. So the reaction of wanting to fold is the mistake villain's bluff is looking to expose. Your strat did actually max the value in the hand thou.

How do I get the banana dance emoticon?

What, this one?  ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana;

no these  ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana; ;sexybanana;