blonde poker forum

45 left. Average is 160k. We're quite deep here. No history with villian. He's just lost a big pot JJ vs AK. I've seen him before and know he's a winning player. What's the best strat here?

Full Tilt Poker Game #16408805840: The Sunday Brawl (117197593), Table 23 - 2500/5000 Ante 600 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:21:10 ET - 2009/11/29
Seat 1: ProbBluffingYou (213,029)
Seat 2: YOUTH_666 (248,344)
Seat 3: YrrsiNN (79,822)
Seat 4: BallsNL (57,994)
Seat 5: mymoneyunoit (80,213)
Seat 6: EIephant (158,033)
Seat 7: George2Loose (223,878)
Seat 8: BKiCe (461,711)
Seat 9: McNallyville (82,498)
ProbBluffingYou antes 600
YOUTH_666 antes 600
YrrsiNN antes 600
BallsNL antes 600
mymoneyunoit antes 600
EIephant antes 600
George2Loose antes 600
BKiCe antes 600
McNallyville antes 600
George2Loose posts the small blind of 2,500
BKiCe posts the big blind of 5,000
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to George2Loose [6h 6c]
McNallyville folds
ProbBluffingYou folds
YOUTH_666 folds
CharlieLee (Observer): lol flipaments
YrrsiNN raises to 79,222, and is all in
BallsNL folds
mymoneyunoit folds
EIephant folds
George2Loose ?

i would fold here mate

Fold, your in a good position no need to gamble yet and you might need a 2 outer.

I fold, I'd also bet $1000 there aren't 45 left :D

i take it you didn't win the whole thing?

I'd fold aswell tbh

i'd probably fold

No one flatting/shoving here?

I did tank for a while before making my decision. I think its close

i like the flat tbh - i think against a good opponent it can look strong. Not many players have it in them to make a marginal shove in that spot. If they do - im presuming its a hand

Flatting fine with me

Jam vs this oppo he never has 99+

If you ICM this its not close, gotta think about $ev aswell as just Cev. It's probably technically a +ev decision but theres no need to put the chips in here. Flatting is nonsenical, why would you flat? are you folding if BB shoves?

v1 is all in

v2 yet to act is in the bb?

fold>>>>shove>>>>flat

George do you have an issue passing pocket sixes????
Is it not the same hand you got into trouble with in the 30R a couple of weeks back?

if i was the bb id be more concerned by a flat than an iso shove tbh

A flat is just terrible,I don't think there's much debate in that.

so you wouldnt flat with AA KK in that spot?

and dont foregt that G2L is going to have an image problem this deep in a tourney (sorry george)

What are you doing with your 66 if yu flat and the bb then shoves?

Just kissing 1/3 of your stack goodbye?

Flatting with 66,or anything similar is super exploitable,shoving much less so.

But I still say it's a fold.

+1000000000 and its not even close

it is expoitable..................... but how many players are capable of making that play?

I think enough players flat with AA/KK in that spot nowadays that very few players are reshoving against a Laggy player in the SB (assuming G2L is playing to type)

so in "magical mystery cards face up world" - of course it is expolitable, however, when someone flats for 1/3 of their stack, are you shoving light (say JT green) from the BB assuming they will pass - i dont think so!

lol kk

this is really bad thinking. unless you have specific reason as to why BB is completely incapable of making the play you should assume every player will play optimally. classic fundamental mistake is to assume you're better than everyone else and they aren't noticing what you are. not only that, you're not playing a $10 tourney, yeh the brawl standard is sporadic in skill but there are some extremely good players in it so why you would assume this I have no idea.

If i'm the bb,with these stack sizes and a flat from sb i'm prob shoving something like 99+ AQ and AK,a lot of which I fold to the shove.

LOL @ exploitable then

what you calling with if he iso shoves?

JJ+ and AK

so expoitable is 3 hands - wp push those edges

I really don't get your arguements here tbh,right from your first post on the subject you have been making little sense in my eyes.

Flatting the 66 is exploitable because it allows a good player in the bb to come over the top with more hands that are beating you than he would call your shove with,surely you can understand this as a basic?

Add to the fact that you cannot possibly flat and then call the shove,and I don't see how any semi-decent player makes such a play with mid-pairs.

I can't even believe we are debating it,i'd be amazed if you could find two or three winning players on here who would advocate a flat.

Exploitable in this instance = making a different play to that which you would have made if the hero iso shoved.

Therefore it isnt expoitable if the BB wakes up with AA KK QQ JJ and AK as he snaps your shove anyway.

Therefore in the range suggested above the only hands which are getting you off your flat with 66 are 99 TT and AQ

I think the point here is that a good player could re shove your flat with Td Jd knowing you are folding and he is getting 2:1 on his play - that is EXPLOTING the play.

Like every poker hand - it is situation specific. If I am sat in the BB and all of a sudden the sb who is known as LAGGY and occasionally maniac flats, I can assure you my AQ and 99 get insta mucked - the bottom of my range would become TT/JJ to reshove and even then Im prob going to think very hard before doing it.

There are so few players that make the 'light' reshove play .... that without further info I do not think that you can say iso shoving is hugely greater that flatting

3 extra hands is still exploitable,1 extra hand would be exploitable,maybe you want to look up the definition of exploitable?

There doesn't need to be a specific quantity for something to become exploitable,it either is or it isn't.


I am not advocating a shove,I don't like the shove,I fold the 6's pretty instantly,but I am saying that I absolutely hate the flat as opposed to a dislike for the shove.

I feel like I am repeating myself at this stage so i'll leave it at that.

what if the bb includes TT & JJ in the sb's flattig range?

Although technically a 1 hand margin is expolitable in the "cards face up poker vaccum" - in the real world narrowing ranges isnt a perfect science.

I have no problem passing if I think it's the correct play Stu. I just want to know what the optimal play is here. The discussion so far tells me it's not a straightforward fold/shove

You've got no history on villain apart from the only hand he's tabled for a big pot is J-J. Using over 1/3 of your decent stack to call all-in on a blind gamble where you're flipping at best isn't ideal imo. Depends what the table's like really in determining whether this is the best use of your money.

66 runs pretty good against A2-A6 and 22-66.

The BB btw is a very good LAG.

Full Tilt Poker Game #16408805840: The Sunday Brawl (117197593), Table 23 - 2500/5000 Ante 600 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:21:10 ET - 2009/11/29
Seat 1: ProbBluffingYou (213,029)
Seat 2: YOUTH_666 (248,344)
Seat 3: YrrsiNN (79,822)
Seat 4: BallsNL (57,994)
Seat 5: mymoneyunoit (80,213)
Seat 6: EIephant (158,033)
Seat 7: George2Loose (223,878)
Seat 8: BKiCe (461,711)
Seat 9: McNallyville (82,498)
ProbBluffingYou antes 600
YOUTH_666 antes 600
YrrsiNN antes 600
BallsNL antes 600
mymoneyunoit antes 600
EIephant antes 600
George2Loose antes 600
BKiCe antes 600
McNallyville antes 600
George2Loose posts the small blind of 2,500
BKiCe posts the big blind of 5,000
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to George2Loose [6h 6c]
McNallyville folds
ProbBluffingYou folds
YOUTH_666 folds
CharlieLee (Observer): lol flipaments
YrrsiNN raises to 79,222, and is all in
BallsNL folds
mymoneyunoit folds
EIephant folds
George2Loose calls 79,222
BKiCe raises to 461,711 and is all in
George2Loose ?

That is a fact. What evidence do you have that A2-A6 are the type of hands villain shoves here?

Nice timing on the post George!

Without knowing anything about the villain - i think you gotta pass (or even moreso if you think he is a rock or tight player)

How was your image at this time?

As for knowing the villain is a good Lag - there are arguements for a call as  the side pot is greater than you existing stack.

Not that you were calling to induce with 66! - but surely the timebank got some action here?

Dependant on your own personal view, and only you can answer this.

Do you have an edge over your table? Or do you feel like you're on a table with YellowSub86, ShaunDeeb, Hitthehole?

if it's the latter I take the potential flip.

My image has been fairly solid pre flop. Been quite aggressive in pots. Pulled off a couple of bluffs but not had to show them

I've played with him a few hundred times, whats your evidence that he doesn't?

BkIce is much better than sub and deeb.

I'm not always privy to your own personal history with a villain before making my decisions. As in this case.

Wasnt having a pop mate!
Just interesting as its the same hand, are we over valuing the strength of 66 a bit?
Personally I have no idea why you would want to get involved in this hand, but then again I play so much more live than online which probably makes a difference.

George, we really need to know what your plan was when you decided to flat, if you didnt have one then why and what is your thought process. Addressing the thought process is much more important than saying the hand was good or bad for obvious reasons.

lol if i could pick one reg to be deep in the brawl with, its defo middy!

u wanna be deep in with middy?

you're sick jones

OK thought process

1) I thought I was ahead of cut off's range. I did tank it tho cos I know most of the time I'm flipping. Do I want to take a 140k race at this stage?
2) Having thought about it, if I call and lose I still have 150k which is average chips.
3) I thought flatting this raise size is pretty unexploitable. If he shoves, he has to have better right? So the plan is to call/fold to BB shove. However once it actually happens and I have a third of my stack out there finding that fold button can prove difficult

I think all of the above is fine........ obv

however, knowing he is a super lag and v competant it is a time bank decission.

He isnt making that play with a lower pair, but there is a good likelihood you are flipping.

Call seems ok for the side pot - if 150k is ave nothing wrong with folding - but i prob go for it if i know what flushy seems to know about the BB

OK now put yourself in BB's position. From what we know he is a v. good player (although granted you may not have known this at the time), this essentially means he knows all the aforementioned considerations you're making, crucially, that "if he shoves he has to have better". He is capable of out-thinking you here and you're effectively getting pwned. The fact that you tanked makes this a very easy shove for him with maybe ATC given his chip stack.

IF you feel compelled to play the 66 you have to shove here, it is by definition unexploitable. If you happen to run into a monster GG but at least you haven't been outplayed, you've gotten unfortunate. But as I said before imo it's better to pass here and find a better spot.

Ok What actually happened:


Full Tilt Poker Game #16408805840: The Sunday Brawl (117197593), Table 23 - 2500/5000 Ante 600 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:21:10 ET - 2009/11/29
Seat 1: ProbBluffingYou (213,029)
Seat 2: YOUTH_666 (248,344)
Seat 3: YrrsiNN (79,822)
Seat 4: BallsNL (57,994)
Seat 5: mymoneyunoit (80,213)
Seat 6: EIephant (158,033)
Seat 7: George2Loose (223,878)
Seat 8: BKiCe (461,711)
Seat 9: McNallyville (82,498)
ProbBluffingYou antes 600
YOUTH_666 antes 600
YrrsiNN antes 600
BallsNL antes 600
mymoneyunoit antes 600
EIephant antes 600
George2Loose antes 600
BKiCe antes 600
McNallyville antes 600
George2Loose posts the small blind of 2,500
BKiCe posts the big blind of 5,000
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to George2Loose [6h 6c]
McNallyville folds
ProbBluffingYou folds
YOUTH_666 folds
CharlieLee (Observer): lol flipaments
YrrsiNN raises to 79,222, and is all in
BallsNL folds
mymoneyunoit folds
EIephant folds
George2Loose raises to 223,278, and is all in
BKiCe calls 218,278
George2Loose shows [6h 6c]
BKiCe shows [Kh Kc]
YrrsiNN shows [Ad Qs]
BKqzbxt (Observer): hold
*** FLOP *** [td Ac 5d]
ShIpItNIT (Observer): kkkkkkkkkkkkk
*** TURN *** [td Ac 5d] [2c]
ShIpItNIT (Observer): KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
*** RIVER *** [td Ac 5d 2c] [Qc]
George2Loose shows a pair of Sixes
BKiCe shows a pair of Kings
BKiCe wins the side pot (288,112) with a pair of Kings
YrrsiNN shows two pair, Aces and Queens
YrrsiNN wins the main pot (243,066) with two pair, Aces and Queens
pez102 (Observer): yeah like actual god
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 531,178 Main pot 243,066. Side pot 288,112. | Rake 0
Board: [td Ac 5d 2c Qc]
Seat 1: ProbBluffingYou folded before the Flop
Seat 2: YOUTH_666 folded before the Flop
Seat 3: YrrsiNN showed [Ad Qs] and won (243,066) with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 4: BallsNL folded before the Flop
Seat 5: mymoneyunoit folded before the Flop
Seat 6: EIephant (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: George2Loose (small blind) showed [6h 6c] and lost with a pair of Sixes
Seat 8: BKiCe (big blind) showed [Kh Kc] and won (288,112) with a pair of Kings
Seat 9: McNallyville folded before the Flop

I discussed this with Neil and said he woudl call/fold. I think, with hindsight, this was a fold but I have an inkling I'm being swayed by results. Had Bkice folded, and I lose the flip, I probably wouldn't give this a second thought.

I was pretty pissed off as I'd built my stack without showdown. FWIW Bkice finished 6th and villiian managed to get 2nd. MBN

Nice fake btw -v good

I think against a solid player I fold for your reasons

If I knew him and his game I prob tank call

I really don't think this is all that bad - you just need to run like blatch and bink!

Was just one of the MTT players I knew everyone respects.

You can put in the place of Hitthehole anything you like, however 'Darvin Moon' will not be accepted.