blonde poker forum

I imagine opinions may vary greatly, but after bottling a few opportunities last night at DTD to shove with junk (easier online!) as a crippled stack when folded to me in the small blind or button (good argument for not looking at my cards perhaps) I'm interested in knowing at what point in terms of Big Blinds (or 'M') that people think the maths dictates it's +EV any two?  Granted, player types and stack sizes to act after you are a major factor in the equation, but for argument's sake let's just assume that they are playing 'perfect' poker (and yes I know that that is purely subjective!).

it's too situational, my range completely changes depending on whos on my left.  Their chip size, their range for calling, my position in tourament, when blinds are going up, payout structure etc etc asre all important factors.

Granted all of the above.  Okay, let's give you the actual scenario.  Final table, in the money, but shortest stack of 7, with between only 3 and 4 big blinds left.  Player to immediate left is tight-ish and the next player along knows your game well and knows you push with an appropriately wide range in these spots and is very capable of making correct calls.  Both of these players barely have you covered, however.  So, just how lame, on a scale of woefully lame to horrifically lame is folding any 2 cards when folded around to you in the small blind or button?

Don't get this short,i'm assuming since it was at dtd it wouldn't have been ridic crapshooty where the avg bb is that low.As played shove atc 

how can he know you push with a wide range when youve been blinded down to 3bbs?

The fact you have only 3 BB's probably means you have a really tight shoving range up to now or you wouldnt have got that low.

If it folds to me on the button and i have 10 bigs or less im struggling to not shove any two, the lower and dirtier the two the better.

this!

you got too low here - playing live its probably about 7 bigs to shove atc- and most people arent calling light unless they have monster stacks or know what they are doing

i highly recommend not looking - you need to fake look - but honestly - dont peep - it can only put you off!

About 8bbs against your average live players, thye rarely ever adjust. With 10bbs I would still be shoving a very wide range and of course you can widen your range significantly if antes are in play.

The answers to all this kind of thing are solved by using ICM calcs (set to cEV in mid mtt stages) and just put ranges in.

Sigh, it's just so tedious continually being told off for letting one's stack to get so low.  Like, does no-one else ever get crippled by losing a race or suffering a bad beat?!  Every question I've ever asked about playing a short stack always gets a barrage of responses assuming I'm a nit  :o/

Erm, like because we play the same tournament at the same venue, every Tuesday night! 

Oops, sorry Stuart.  Ur the wrong target for my exasperation as you have given me something constructive.  10 BB?  As big as that?  Really?  Bearing in mind that the average stack is less than 10BB by that stage...
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Didnt mean to tell you off mate!

Obviously theyre are other reasons that your stack might be that low. Yeah lose a pot and get left with change or whatever.

The fact you are asking about shoving 3 bigs when folded to you on the button though does mean your a nit!  ;)

As Longy said as a standard shove any two with 7 or 8 bigs left.
Personally I would shove even if I had a little more than this but thats just cus I like to shove with  3c 6c and bink.

Dont ever forget that green cards are golden.

Just because in this situation you took a beat or whatever to get that low doesn't mean it isn't constructive advice to say don't get that low,some people are rdiic nits and would fold down to 3bbs whether you are one of those people are not is unknown to me and i would assume others to and the fact your asking whether you should be shoving with 4bbs against similar stacks suggests to me you are a bit of a nit,is it offensive to call someone a nit btw ??

can't think why anyone would think you'd been blinding away  :dontask:

about 7-8x is about right to just lump it in live

I'm a nit, and I'd be shoving with ATC well before I'm down to 4BBs. I always like to look though first, not because I might change my mind before I shove the chips in, but because if I have two green cards I can be all smug knowing I'm going to win the hand.

TitBeam on thread.

Please post something worthy of a banana dance.

Kthx

Dont shove and lose in a sat before you've made a seat, that's prob good advice. ;grr;

Whilst mentally limbering-up for the post-bink "smell these nuts" celebration no doubt.

Yep, fair comment, it's a fair rap.  Thanks everyone, you've convinced me that I'm a closet nit  ;o)  I'm gleefully shoving with 6,3 suited by the way.  Even nitty me recognises that for a powerhouse.  I'm talking about trash like 7,2 and 8,3 when there's more of a psychological barrier. 

I am talking about when we are on the final table and in the money, however, and whilst recognising that we should be playing to give ourselves the best chance of winning, I do wonder if the presence of similar sized stacks on the table ought not to make a difference?  Two double ups and we are chip leader.

Am I thinking about this wrongly saying I have no problem shoving with any two as a short stack when far from the money, but am less inclined to do so in the scenario described if folding means moving up a money spot when someone busts out on the next hand?  Twice I've reached the final table as the short stack and finished third and fourth by playing conservatively.  Granted shoving with any two might have yielded wins instead, but just as likely an earlier exit...

Confused.com

2 is not generally considered as a decent sample size

Yeah I think you should be shoving 7 2 and 8 3 happily.

Chances are they both fold
If we get looked up by two overs we just need a bink.
If we get looked up by a big pair, then oops.

But its these spots that give you a chance to get back in the game.
Once your down to 3 bigs you need to get 2 or more double ups.

You should always be playing to win as in the long term this should win you more than laddering.

Convinced.com!  Amen to this post.  Really appreciate the input and I now feel ready now to break free from my self-imposed shackles; I feel liberated; I'm a new man!  Look out future final tables cos no holds barred!  All future winnings dedicated to posters on this forum  :o)

QFT

one last point even though you're already convinced. it's much easier to get those 2 double ups if you haven't just passed

Agreed.  It's just so obvious to me now!  And I described 6,3 suited as a powerhouse when compared to 7,2 off, but what difference are we actually talking about?  5-6% improved equity!
OMG, thanks everyone for removing the blindfolds; you've supplied me with the poker equivolent of the red pill in the Matrix!

If a bad beat crippled me at the ft leaving me 3 bb's those chips would be in the middle next hand.

UTG with 52o? Personally I think there's also a threshold where you get so short that you can fold atc as you know you're being called and behind.

With a little bit of FE I agree it's atc but with none I can fold some hands.

Agreed I am pretty sure folding the bottom 20-25% of your range is +ev, if not wider.

If a bad beat crippled me to 3 bb's I would shove atc. Perhaps tilt? I would want the poker gods to shoot me like the sick crippled dog I am. It might be mathematically +EV to fold your bottom 25% but then again you've gotta consider the trade off in life minutes you waste nitting around with the other little stump stacks. How horrible. You could be in bed by the time you finally decide to push. After winning the push with 52o UTG I would then push my blind. After winning that one I would feel calmer. Then we can start busting the nits.

I shove with with about 3 ms which is normally around 6-8 bigs

I shove a Paul Ho in the middle do the banana dance straight out the door and think ive had the best night ever.

depends whos in the blinds DO YOU SEE WHY

My line, especially live, would be similar. Your getting called no matter what so I would be looking for as good a hand as poss before the blinds hit again. You will prob ladder as well