Short-stack threshold for shoving any two when folded to you on the button?

[Bandito]

I imagine opinions may vary greatly, but after bottling a few opportunities last night at DTD to shove with junk (easier online!) as a crippled stack when folded to me in the small blind or button (good argument for not looking at my cards perhaps) I'm interested in knowing at what point in terms of Big Blinds (or 'M') that people think the maths dictates it's +EV any two?  Granted, player types and stack sizes to act after you are a major factor in the equation, but for argument's sake let's just assume that they are playing 'perfect' poker (and yes I know that that is purely subjective!).

[pleno1]

it's too situational, my range completely changes depending on whos on my left.  Their chip size, their range for calling, my position in tourament, when blinds are going up, payout structure etc etc asre all important factors.

[Bandito]

it's too situational, my range completely changes depending on whos on my left.  Their chip size, their range for calling, my position in tourament, when blinds are going up, payout structure etc etc asre all important factors.

Granted all of the above.  Okay, let's give you the actual scenario.  Final table, in the money, but shortest stack of 7, with between only 3 and 4 big blinds left.  Player to immediate left is tight-ish and the next player along knows your game well and knows you push with an appropriately wide range in these spots and is very capable of making correct calls.  Both of these players barely have you covered, however.  So, just how lame, on a scale of woefully lame to horrifically lame is folding any 2 cards when folded around to you in the small blind or button?

[mondatoo]

it's too situational, my range completely changes depending on whos on my left.  Their chip size, their range for calling, my position in tourament, when blinds are going up, payout structure etc etc asre all important factors.

Granted all of the above.  Okay, let's give you the actual scenario.  Final table, in the money, but shortest stack of 7, with between only 3 and 4 big blinds left.  Player to immediate left is tight-ish and the next player along knows your game well and knows you push with an appropriately wide range in these spots and is very capable of making correct calls.  Both of these players barely have you covered, however.  So, just how lame, on a scale of woefully lame to horrifically lame is folding any 2 cards when folded around to you in the small blind or button?

Don't get this short,i'm assuming since it was at dtd it wouldn't have been ridic crapshooty where the avg bb is that low.As played shove atc 

[pleno1]

how can he know you push with a wide range when youve been blinded down to 3bbs?

[StuartHopkin]

how can he know you push with a wide range when youve been blinded down to 3bbs?

The fact you have only 3 BB's probably means you have a really tight shoving range up to now or you wouldnt have got that low.

If it folds to me on the button and i have 10 bigs or less im struggling to not shove any two, the lower and dirtier the two the better.

[outragous76]

(good argument for not looking at my cards perhaps)

this!

you got too low here - playing live its probably about 7 bigs to shove atc- and most people arent calling light unless they have monster stacks or know what they are doing

i highly recommend not looking - you need to fake look - but honestly - dont peep - it can only put you off!

[Longy]

About 8bbs against your average live players, thye rarely ever adjust. With 10bbs I would still be shoving a very wide range and of course you can widen your range significantly if antes are in play.

The answers to all this kind of thing are solved by using ICM calcs (set to cEV in mid mtt stages) and just put ranges in.

[Bandito]

how can he know you push with a wide range when youve been blinded down to 3bbs?

The fact you have only 3 BB's probably means you have a really tight shoving range up to now or you wouldnt have got that low.

If it folds to me on the button and i have 10 bigs or less im struggling to not shove any two, the lower and dirtier the two the better.

Sigh, it's just so tedious continually being told off for letting one's stack to get so low.  Like, does no-one else ever get crippled by losing a race or suffering a bad beat?!  Every question I've ever asked about playing a short stack always gets a barrage of responses assuming I'm a nit  /

[Bandito]

how can he know you push with a wide range when youve been blinded down to 3bbs?

Erm, like because we play the same tournament at the same venue, every Tuesday night! 

[Bandito]

how can he know you push with a wide range when youve been blinded down to 3bbs?

The fact you have only 3 BB's probably means you have a really tight shoving range up to now or you wouldnt have got that low.

If it folds to me on the button and i have 10 bigs or less im struggling to not shove any two, the lower and dirtier the two the better.

Sigh, it's just so tedious continually being told off for letting one's stack to get so low.  Like, does no-one else ever get crippled by losing a race or suffering a bad beat?!  Every question I've ever asked about playing a short stack always gets a barrage of responses assuming I'm a nit  /

Oops, sorry Stuart.  Ur the wrong target for my exasperation as you have given me something constructive.  10 BB?  As big as that?  Really?  Bearing in mind that the average stack is less than 10BB by that stage...

[Bandito]

Oops, sorry Stuart.  Ur the wrong target for my exasperation as you have given me something constructive.  10 BB?  As big as that?  Really?  Bearing in mind that the average stack is less than 10BB by that stage...
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[StuartHopkin]

how can he know you push with a wide range when youve been blinded down to 3bbs?

The fact you have only 3 BB's probably means you have a really tight shoving range up to now or you wouldnt have got that low.

If it folds to me on the button and i have 10 bigs or less im struggling to not shove any two, the lower and dirtier the two the better.

Sigh, it's just so tedious continually being told off for letting one's stack to get so low.  Like, does no-one else ever get crippled by losing a race or suffering a bad beat?!  Every question I've ever asked about playing a short stack always gets a barrage of responses assuming I'm a nit  /

Didnt mean to tell you off mate!

Obviously theyre are other reasons that your stack might be that low. Yeah lose a pot and get left with change or whatever.

The fact you are asking about shoving 3 bigs when folded to you on the button though does mean your a nit!  

As Longy said as a standard shove any two with 7 or 8 bigs left.
Personally I would shove even if I had a little more than this but thats just cus I like to shove with   and bink.

Dont ever forget that green cards are golden.

[mondatoo]

how can he know you push with a wide range when youve been blinded down to 3bbs?

The fact you have only 3 BB's probably means you have a really tight shoving range up to now or you wouldnt have got that low.

If it folds to me on the button and i have 10 bigs or less im struggling to not shove any two, the lower and dirtier the two the better.

Sigh, it's just so tedious continually being told off for letting one's stack to get so low.  Like, does no-one else ever get crippled by losing a race or suffering a bad beat?!  Every question I've ever asked about playing a short stack always gets a barrage of responses assuming I'm a nit  /

Oops, sorry Stuart.  Ur the wrong target for my exasperation as you have given me something constructive.  10 BB?  As big as that?  Really?  Bearing in mind that the average stack is less than 10BB by that stage...

Just because in this situation you took a beat or whatever to get that low doesn't mean it isn't constructive advice to say don't get that low,some people are rdiic nits and would fold down to 3bbs whether you are one of those people are not is unknown to me and i would assume others to and the fact your asking whether you should be shoving with 4bbs against similar stacks suggests to me you are a bit of a nit,is it offensive to call someone a nit btw ??

[gatso]

I imagine opinions may vary greatly, but after bottling a few opportunities last night at DTD to shove with junk (easier online!) as a crippled stack when folded to me in the small blind or button (good argument for not looking at my cards perhaps) I'm interested in knowing at what point in terms of Big Blinds (or 'M') that people think the maths dictates it's +EV any two?  Granted, player types and stack sizes to act after you are a major factor in the equation, but for argument's sake let's just assume that they are playing 'perfect' poker (and yes I know that that is purely subjective!).

can't think why anyone would think you'd been blinding away 

about 7-8x is about right to just lump it in live