blonde poker forum

Just a general line check as at the time I wasn't entirely sure what the best course of action was.

Early days in the tournament. Still in the 25/50 level. Everyone involved has about the 10k starting stack. No big reads on villains yet. Button has been reasonably aggressive, not seen anything from blinds.

Folds to hero in the cutoff who has KINGS. He raises to 150.
The button and both blinds call and we see a flop of:

 6c Jd Qd

The blinds both check and Hero fires in a bet of 425.
The button and the SB fold but the big blind calls.

Turn:  Ahrt

BB checks.
Hero ???

Should I be betting here? If so, how much? Or should we be checking behind?

We cant win the pot by checking.

Pretty neat of the sb to check when he has already passed on the flop.

Firing the turn alll day long.

If he Re raises its an easy pass.

If he floats  again an easy fold to any river bets unless you improve.

I am checking behind the turn.

Betting achieves very little in this spot, you get called/raised by a lot of stuff you are behind to and very little you actually beat. Much prefer to check behind for pot control and re asses the river, calling sometimes depending on river card/size of bet etc.

People who are betting here are you doing it for value or as a bluff?

check behind turn. fold most rivers.

why on earth would we bet this turn? to let 45dd decide to checkraise us?

check back turn, let him spaz/vbet thinnish river

Was thinking about this today, are we only ever checking behind on the turn here with one pair hands/air? All two pairs/sets/straights we are building a pot with. So it's definetely optimal for villain to always bet the river? Do we need to balance our range, or is this a spot where it's not necessary?

I'm only betting this if I'm out of position.

Check turn. Call river.

Im still prefering betting 1k on the turn.

Yeah were probably turning our hand into a bluff, but there is no way he is checking the river if we check the turn and then were calling off about the same with no idea where we are?

by checking we get random bluff stabs entering his range for the river.  this sure happens if we b/fold the turn.

i'd check the turn for sure, can't really think of a good reason to bet here

pretty sure we can if we have the best hand

easy decision to check here

If you bet the turn after betting the flop what hand are you representing? You present an invitation to be c-raised because if you liked the flop you can't really like the turn most of the time.

If we fire the turn we then have to carry on the bluff and fire the river hoping he'll lay down a weak ace.

He's not calling without an ace but if he's good he might just check raise us on the river putting us in a world of pain.

We've got position in a small pot in the early stages. No need to let this get out of hand.

He calls turn with more than just a naked ace imo. diamonds, pair and draw etc.

This is whats in my head, your part bluffing, part valuing.
Plus if we get called here I dont think we have to fire the river just for the sake of it.

Oh and Gatso your an idiot, you know full well thats not what I meant, and your shit and you smell.............



of poo ;)

while I normally just start on you needlessly and for no reason, on this one occassion I actually don't know what you meant

why can't we win the pot if we check?

basically because its the turn
if we check we dont win
there is another card called the river
who knows what might happen then
especially if its a twelfty

I certainly agree with the general sentiments of this post, betting the turn would be bad.

I'd take issue with that sentence though. You never HAVE to do anything. If you decided to bluff the turn here and were called, the very worst thing you could do is then auto bet every river card out of some misguided sense of obligation. One mistake should not beget another, you should always reserve the right to reassess after every street / action.

Welcome back Lloyd, missed your posts on the PHA board.

Are people levelling on here or something?

We are at the 25-50 level and you all want to start turning Kings into a multi street bluff, wtf!

Just get to showdown plz

Act like your going to bet but then at the last possible second check instead and study his reaction.

what thread are you reading? only 2 people have suggested a bet, hardly a levelling conspiracy

i would betfold turn
no reason yet to think you're behind and would want one more street of value from qx and draws.
imo you lose less than when you are behind by betfolding now rather than checking turn to call a river bet which as someone else already said is a guessing game with no reads

And what happens when you bet the turn and get raised?

Aren't you playing a guessing game there with no reads? How often is the guy bluffing?

By betting the turn you could end up folding the best hand.

This is a hand where you definitely want to get to showdown.

Im still not here with this thought process. I dont disagree as such just prefer the bet.

If we get raised we fold, we have shown strength pre, on the flop and now on the turn even though an ace has appeared.
For this reason I doubt the guy is bluffing a lot in this spot, but if he does then yes we could fold the best hand.


Why?
If were losing now we are almost definately losing at showdown, so can only win by turning our hand into a bluff. Plus you all seem intent on snapping him off on the river so its not losing us anymore.

If we are winning now then we want to try and get some more money in.

Im obv happy to get ripped here, but I really dont think its a clear check it down.

I am open to being converted though ;)

Stu think what hands actually fold that we are beating, I can't think of any pretty much.

Then conversly think about the hands that would check call our turn bet, how many of them do we get value from, how many of them do we get check raised by (alot of big draws are very likely to check raise here imo)

This really is no brainer check if you think about villians range.

we can improve as we now have a gutshot to go with our pair, Charles did you have the King of diamonds in your hand?

nope, one was black and one was green

Put yourself in oppo's shoes Stu.

Do you call a turn bet if you have A2? I'd guess so unless it's a stupid bet.

Do you call with one of the decent draws that's out there? Possibly. Or do you perhaps raise it to TID now? Another possibility.

If you've got the draw and don't hit you're going to rep the A anyway because that's your only chance of winning.

Either of these possibilities leads to us laying down the best hand or paying off with the worst hand.

Because we've spoken about laying down KK here to any big betting from oppo we need to stay as cheap as possible. If we've got some reads then the hand can play very differently when we look to value towning second pair or bet to induce bluff on river or w/e. At this stage we just don't know.

Keep it cheap, find out what oppo has got and note it and rock up your own image ready for later. Show people that you don't bet A high boards unless you've got it and use that to nick a few pots later when it really matters.

only skimmed the thread but turning our hand into a bluff here is lol

Great contribution Chris ;)

lol sorry il try be more constructive... He is never folding a better hand than KK here but we might still have the best hand so we should just try to get to a cheap showdown IMO. It is the early stages of the deepstacked tourney we really have no need to be running this bluff or building a big pot here

No worries!
Just one of those where Ive got it stuck in my head back to front.
The more people that explain why Im wrong the sooner I might believe them!

Can we have a bit more of the story Cf before I every bastard on the forum realises how shit I am!?

I mean you could bet if u want but it should be for value not as a bluff

But at this stage that's really tough to do without some super reads on people.

Later on you might be able to get some value against someone who's flopped 2nd pair or maybe has a smaller pair than you but with the blinds this low there's probably only 1% of people who can actually squeeze some value out of.

Norrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr theres loads of people who would call with less and you know it. I would say there is only 1% of the 300 field that know whats going on.

i still agree with this hopkin fella and dont understand why you wouldnt bet for

i think your more likely to get some value on the turn from a worse hand, then to get someone to bluff the river if you check.

Just re read and i dont think ive got my points or reasons across very clearly.

When i said turn into a 'bluff' i was meant betting the ace would probably get some of the draws to fold?
I never expected him to be folding if he holds an ace.
Its pretty dodgy board to be giving free cards away on?

So you're betting to protect KK against a board with some draws on it?

That makes more sense but what do you do if oppo raises on the flop like a lot would with a decent draw?

Are you then passing in case he has the ace which a lot of people would also check raise with?

If at any stage you're folding to any betting from your opponent then you are turning the hand in to a bluff.

If you know he's passive and will just call then you're ok but you don't know that yet.

What if oppo calls and then leads on a blank river? Do you assume he's missed his draw and call or that he's got the A so pass?

What if oppo calls the turn then checks a blank river? Are you then value betting the river in case he has an under pair and might call? What if you get check raised on a blank river? Then what?

There's just so many ways that this hand can go wrong it's not worth betting out.

Unless you're against a passive oppo who's just going to call you're achieving nothing. Unfortunately a passive is only calling with a hand that beats you so you achieve nothing.

You've been told about this multi accounting before Hopkin!!! It's naughty!!!

Norr he cant check raise the flop because its the turn.
If he check raises me im folding.
If he calls and leads the river im folding.
Your over complicating.
Everyones shit, how can we lose?

So if he bets anything at all at any stage you lose the hand.

That means that your lead out line will only work against a hopeless passive or someone who has got absolutely nothing.

Therefore you are bluffing and should do the same thing with atc.

but you want him to call!

edit: oops wrong account ;)

If he's got a worse hand then yes we want him to call and that would be lovely.

Unfortunately if he's half decent he isn't going to call, he's going to raise and then we are going to pass.

He calls with an ace, he folds or raises with anything we beat.

Were getting some where now!
So you admit that no one in the 300 makes this move?