blonde poker forum

OK following hand from a £2/£5 NLH game at DTD.

Bit of a build up to the hand, Villain is unknown to me, started at the table with £500 well and spun upto £750 by fast playing trips vs a PFR to stack him. Played the hand pretty well and looked like he knew what he was doing. He later stacked off with what i pressume were aces / kings on a very wet 4 club board when he had been 3 bet in a 3way pot on the turn in a situation he could never be winning. Did the lot, played 50p/£1 for a bit and then comes and sits back down with £600. We manage to get it in pre for £1200+ pot with my aces being no good vs his jacks when the window comes a jack (50p). So start of this hand which is about 1 orbit later, he has ~£1200 and i cover him.

Game is currently 6 handed.

UTG straddles £10 (£250 stack)
UTG+1 raises to £35 (£2k stack)
I call with  Aspades Qs out of small blind (£1700 stack)
BB calls (Villain £1200 stack), as does the straddle. 4 way to the flop (Pot £140)

Flop comes a rather nice  8s 9s Ahrt
Checked to the straddle who leads for £75, OR folds, I decide to call and the BB also calls. (Pot £365)

Turn comes the  8d.

I check thinking the shortie will prob get the rest of his £150ish in but its checked all round.

I  know I should have deff bet here as need to get value from all the  Jh Th type of hands and smaller FD's the BB might have but i was pretty sure that if the shortie was gonna bet that board on the flop, the 8 cant make much difference and he would get it in, but nope he checks.

River comes the brick that is the   2c

I decide to bet £220 hoping to get called by a weak ace if the BB has one or whatever the UTG was betting the flop with as he doesnt have much behind. (maybe should check to induce?)

Anyway, the BB makes it £600.


...........???

raise flop 100% of the time...

+1

why??  i guess you check raise the flop they both fold and you miss value if you had of hit, Should of bet the turn but you know that, your unluckly if he has A8 A9 but  i just call here

I hate inflating this pot when we're deep and out of position.

We've got a hand that has excellent showdown value if we don't improve so we can look to check call all the way.

Yes if we make the nut flush we want the pot bigger but it's a big gamble to take because usually we don't improve from our pair. This pot is only likely to get huge if one of our oppos has us beat and then we 100% need the nut flush or we're in a world of pain.

By check calling the flop we under rep our hand and have a good chance of someone betting with a worse hand. If we raise the flop we scare everyone who we are ahead of in to giving up.

Check call river would've been my preferred play but as played it's a sigh fold. If he's bluffed you just do a little sick on to his stack when he's not looking.

I'm not a huge fan of check raising this flop when 350bbs deep and OOP. I would prefer lead/4-betting than c-raising but I do a cawl here.

I'm not as good at getting thin value in these situations as you Mitch so I sometimes check call these rivers, esp when all draws brick and I can induce bluffs on the river but his river raise really makes me think he isn't bluffing.

Was it the light haired lad with glasses?

No, this was from last night Cos, guy was prob in his 40's, I dont think ive ever played with him before.

Ill wait for a few more replies before i add anything else myself.

I think its terrible raising the flop

ur oop

I would check call river coz we have show down value and I would like too see his cards
Also I am too nooby to do any thing fancy with just aq here

I was ment to put also ur oop and deep

Does the 2 5 game play that deep?

There are usually a few ppl who with with a £1K plus, yeh.

This was quite towards the end of the night so were some decent stacks, but like i said, villain is only so deep due to a double up from 2 outer on me.  ;grr;

so the BB check/calls flop after straddle c-bets and you call? The hands he should have to raise on the river are 88/99/AA/A8/A9/22 a random 8 and a load of missed draws.
Which of the hands that beat us check call 3way on this flop?? Surely 2 pair or a set raise the flop 3way? id probably check/call with river with our bluff catcher, as played i think i still call vs this guy.

I think in general the abc standard type of player its a check call the river after the way you have decided to play it flop an turn but due to the fact you have a great read of betting an raising for value in river spots in the small amount of time i have played with an you an what your friends say, i think in this case betting out the river for value or inducing someone to make this move on the river here with your stlye of play is not bad at all. The problem here the way you describe the player an at these stakes more often an not he will have you beat, wheres in a higher stakes game an especially in the US the game is played wt a little more flair from the old as well as the young wheres in the uk the general over 40's wouldnt be bluffing in this spot here! I hope this makes sense!

I thought you were deleting all your strategy posts because you don't want to give people an insight into your thinking? xx

this line of thinking gets us totally fucked by tricky players, however, given how the older generation overvalue protection, i think this is a clear call for the reasons trigg stated.

lol GREEKSTEIN, Just dying for a reaction! IL stop if u like??? Just kills me reading it an not saying anything ! Be good 2 know if people think i talk out of my assssss.... Like going back to school!!! xx

No big Charra, I think you're a legend.

I'll prove it to you too. Just give me til 10pm.

sarky f...... !!!! Please no more rub downs been continous from everyone since monday ! even the missus joined the bandwagon..............................

hey mitch,

the safest (pot control) way to play it is to check-call the end. however, i think you are missing lots of value by doing this in a 3-way pot - it is a tough spot to be representing anything really, and not many will fire with the busted draws. small aces should be checking behind you - what would they be hoping to get a call from?

my line would be the same as you, leading the river for value. however, when he raises i think you have to pass - very rarely will this demographic of player find a bluff in this spot!

i really dont like raising the flop and playing a non-spade turn oop

and i think betting the turn is bad. again, what happens on a non-spade river? what do you do against an overshove, which could easily be  Js Ts or similar? and there is no real need to bet to "protect your hand" as there are really relatively few scare cards.

so..... i play the same as you all the way through, and pass the river.

Tom

The above post is pretty much my exact thinking and im betting the river for the reasons Tom stated. Gonna squeeze value out a lot more of the time here compared to the times ill get it by inducing a missed draw to bluff imo.

Just couldn't see the guy turning up with a hand he wants to raise the river with that he doesn't want to get some more in with vs a big stack on the turn all that often. On the other hand, I don't really know how often this guys just gonna smash £600 in with nothing. In the end i decided that if hes played the hand that deceptively, maybe he deserves another £380.

As i push the money past the line with a sigh (must get about 1 in 10 calls right when the forward motion of chips is accompanied by a sigh) he flips the old  Ks 8h. Nice Hand.

Pretty speculative on the flop i thought, but each to their own.

Cheers for the feedback. Mitch.

lol

ya he's made an awful call on the flop, keep in the game with him and you will have your £380 back in no time.

i like you shoving the river...I would do the same, he doesn't have to give us AQ does he...K8 is gross and a strange "good" use of position by someone who sounded like he overplayed hands when he hit them...the line on flop checks in but I thought it was interesting that he has found the gear to slow down when he hits trips and let a free river come off (despite the board, is he afraid of going broke to someone on a flush draw??)....judging by him stacking off on 4 flush board before I guess the board texture wasn't bothering him, if you reraised a flush on the river you prob get called... I think player dependent says this is a fold though...I think your hand is pretty under rep'd as played and while nowhere near the nuts, has plenty of bluff catcher potential and it would be a good spot for villain to bluff on the river while you are this deep...but I think that sort of fancy play only exists online....old man raising in live cash game usually "has it"...

once you bet the river i think it is a b/f spot as i think it is unlikely he will make this strong a bluff with the OR behind him and you leading 3way on the river.

The other player in the hand is not the OR, he was on the straddle and decided to donk lead the flop. I understand where your coming from in a way but i think once the shortie hasnt shoved the turn, hes not going to put it in after a bet and a raise on on that river, so the BB can bluff here without much chance of the straddle guy ruining his play.


Also, can i just make it clear, this guy wasnt using a zimmer frame to get to and from the table, he was just older than your general internet player lol.

The river is an absolute snapcall against a good, thinking player. When you check call the flop, check the turn and lead the river, what range of hands can you have? Its all pair+draw hands, or just draws. You never have a full house here because you raise all sets and 2 pairs on the flop so you only ever have a hand that can't call a river raise....unless you know that he knows that you never have much here. Then it gets fun.

id lead flop and try get max value from most things + make ur range v deceptive yet easy to play from heros perspective. Sets up good spots to donk flops and sets tuff up in the future. I was flipping a coin on the riverwhen he raised if id call or not, it doesnt make much sense but u just cudnt ever see him bluffing like this...... Play ur aces better next time and save urself the tough decision in this hand =D

Think you are way over-estimating live players.  The info we are given about villain is that he tends to overplay made hands, not that he is some sort of multi-levelling genius. 

Errrrr live players are in general better at cash than online players imo.

;dingdell;

so the players are better, you pay more rake, you get less hands per hour and you can only one table, yet you still choose to play live. why?

this is some kind of sick level. just can't quite work out how..

I've been umming and arrring over whether to post.

I think I click the 'this is a level button'.

Obviously if our read that he's a good, thinking player isn't correct then a call probably isn't correct unless he's just overly aggressive and spewy (which may well be the case)


My reasoning isn't exactly farfetched though. I still can't see you playing the flop/turn/river like you did with any hands better than yours and if he's getting you to fold the top of your range in this spot then a bluff raise on the river is literally printing money.

lol big Charra. I love you dude but you are tapped. Live players are generally awful at every form of poker with the exception of 1 or 2. (you being one of those exceptions obv)

Once again my inexpierence in writing what i mean has backfired! I shall try to be more politically correct! If u have expierence playing live an online you will have a big edge at making a profit live as online is mainly about short handed games wheres live games can be as much as 10 players wheres a  majority of virtual players will stand out wt there play an phsyicall tells if not expierenced in playing live poker. When i say live i mean cash games not tourneys. I suppose me saying live players better are better than online players in cash games was not being totaly helpfull as obvioulsy online players are talented mathematically better an understand just as much an maybe even more in certain aspects an me being old school trying to be  NEW SCHOOL  maybe makes be biased to the old ways! Always wanted to be a Jedi in Star Wars ! If u go to the biggest games in London an Las Vegas it will be the old school still cashing in on the new breed at the cash tables for many years to come.Sure you will get winners from the online that can adapt an be successful but i believe that the old players will still be there making a profit as well? U hear of many young online players makiing massive money an going broke, How many live cash game pros have u read about in the last 10 years that have gone broke? Poker is a buisness its not a night out on the pull! Longevity is the name of the game not spinning it up then going broke an then hoping to get staked to spin it up again...........like any thing in life expierence is a useful weapon. Once again ill probaly have said something that will get scrutinised but hey luckily for me george thinks im alright as a live player!

Online players are technically much better than live players, BUT they often adapt really poorly to live poker.

tl;dr (not gonna tell you what that means either)

Why not RR preflop and make post flop decisions much easier?

Do we only ever C/R the flop with our made hands and C/C with our weaker pairs and draws? Is this exploitable, especially against opponents we play on a regular basis?

I would bet fold river.

If your opponent is competent, and you only ever c/r with made, and c/c with weak/draws, then yeah of course it's exploitable.

I know a lot of people have said that they don't like check raising this hand, because we have 350bb's, we're out of position and they don't want to inflate the pot, but are you only going to check raise with sets/two pair? Personally, I would like check raising here some of the time.

Also on the turn, you have the flop agressor in position, and the BB also has position on you. The flop agressor only has like £150, and you are never folding for that. So, how about leading on the turn some of the time (if you have c/c flop), because then you are able to see what the big stack does. By you checking and thinking the straddles is going to go all in means you're acting before the big stack in the bb does, and he could possibly raise turn, which puts you in a puke spot. I think this works well when you have a very short stack behind you who was agressive on the previous street, because the standard thing would be just to check to him. But now, you are able to define the big stack's hand well.

Oh, and as played, bet fold river seems ok. But I hate my life. :)

this massively.

i really believe that you should have a huge limping range in a cash game. people play sooooo bad post flop it's untrue and its obv you get so few hands so i think being in as many pots as possible is imperative. so having a limping range that contains premiums and speculatives is a really good strat imo.

obv the fact that live you see the cards you muck make 2 pair all the time whereas online you just onto the next table straight away and live this tilts you sooo much its ridic lol

Yeh, I think i worte a couple of pages back somewhere that i was considering this as it also makes sure BB is charged for his draw(if he has some kind of combo etc). Straddle guys stack is pretty irrelivant once we have gotten to this point in terms of its size so think this is deffinatley an option. Maybe something id be more inclided to do if i had a bit more experience in playing with the guy in the BB and knew his tendancies a bit more,


This is obviously an option short handed, but OR's a pretty competant player (at a table that contains other, better spots) and is very capable of a float and/ or outplaying me on later streets when i miss. Also im pretty much guarentted to get a cbet off all his air on a lot of flops and also, my hand is pretty under repped should it become monsterous :D

Good points Greekstein an Pleno1 ! Nice to here some useful points an are very true as well. Which makes me realise what i should have said that online players new to cash games live are often to aggrressive when they not need be as alot of live players will make mistakes pre flop so therefore mixing play up an also not being so impatient is improtant! Chuckles u make rofl ! ( i know what that means JOCKEY !!! )