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Community Forums => The Lounge => Topic started by: DMorgan on June 19, 2010, 06:20:28 PM



Title: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 19, 2010, 06:20:28 PM
I've just graduated from uni so I've got a lovely £19,000 debt to the student loans company. You hear all sorts of rumours about how much you've gotta earn before you pay it back etc. As poker is tax exempt does this mean that I technically am not earning anything and so I'm not liable to pay any of the money back?

There is obviously a moral issue here aswell. I'm not really trying to screw the taxpayer out of the money, just not sure where I stand.

Anyone else been in the same situation over the last few years/know what my repayment obligations are?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Girgy85 on June 19, 2010, 06:28:21 PM
Get a job!


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: KarmaDope on June 19, 2010, 06:41:52 PM
I've just graduated from uni so I've got a lovely £19,000 debt to the student loans company. You hear all sorts of rumours about how much you've gotta earn before you pay it back etc. As poker is tax exempt does this mean that I technically am not earning anything and so I'm not liable to pay any of the money back?

There is obviously a moral issue here aswell. I'm not really trying to screw the taxpayer out of the money, just not sure where I stand.

Anyone else been in the same situation over the last few years/know what my repayment obligations are?

AFAIK, no obligations. However, if you can't show any income (benefits/part time work), the SLC do write to you and ask how you are funding your life.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 19, 2010, 06:49:50 PM
...You hear all sorts of rumours about how much you've gotta earn before you pay it back etc....

lol, you've got all the paperwork - shouldn't you know how much you have to earn first?  :D

The SLC won't just ignore it, but basically you won't have to pay it back even if you got a part time job and had poker as your main income because it'd only be the part time job that counted.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: vegaslover on June 19, 2010, 07:23:34 PM
I've just graduated from uni so I've got a lovely £19,000 debt to the student loans company. You hear all sorts of rumours about how much you've gotta earn before you pay it back etc. As poker is tax exempt does this mean that I technically am not earning anything and so I'm not liable to pay any of the money back?

There is obviously a moral issue here aswell. I'm not really trying to screw the taxpayer out of the money, just not sure where I stand.

Anyone else been in the same situation over the last few years/know what my repayment obligations are?
AFAIK no obligation as long as any paid employment remains below the annual threshold.
Must say though Dan you saying you not wanting to screw taxpayer is a bit lol when you have been playing/winning plenty high enough not to have any debts incurred.
What is it with students??....lol


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: treefella on June 19, 2010, 07:49:32 PM
 Would your balance in a bank account come into the equation regardless of whether you may or may not have a job ? So lets say you had 100k in your bank but no job would you be forced to pay it back ? Discounting the ethics of course.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 19, 2010, 07:53:29 PM
Would your balance in a bank account come into the equation regardless of whether you may or may not have a job ? So lets say you had 100k in your bank but no job would you be forced to pay it back ? Discounting the ethics of course.

Interest on savings is still your income, so in that sense it's taking in to account, but the actual capital isn't.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 19, 2010, 08:11:40 PM
Must say though Dan you saying you not wanting to screw taxpayer is a bit lol when you have been playing/winning plenty high enough not to have any debts incurred.
What is it with students??....lol

£19,000 is still a very significant sum of money. Just because I'm a winning player doesn't mean that I can afford that sort of outlay. We all still have rent, bills etc. to pay...



Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: vegaslover on June 19, 2010, 08:22:29 PM
Well obvo, but should add beer money to that list
When I was a student I had a mortgage etc but didn't rack up any debt, just worked 90 hour weeks for 3 years


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 19, 2010, 08:26:40 PM
Well obvo, but should add beer money to that list
When I was a student I had a mortgage etc but didn't rack up any debt, just worked 90 hour weeks for 3 years

I don't know when you went but if you were able to get a student loan and didn't then it's likely that this just represents poor financial management.

If you went when student loans were available but didn't have to pay tuition fees then it was definitely a bad decision.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: vegaslover on June 19, 2010, 09:17:00 PM
Well obvo, but should add beer money to that list
When I was a student I had a mortgage etc but didn't rack up any debt, just worked 90 hour weeks for 3 years

I don't know when you went but if you were able to get a student loan and didn't then it's likely that this just represents poor financial management.

If you went when student loans were available but didn't have to pay tuition fees then it was definitely a bad decision.
No they were not available to me.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 19, 2010, 09:26:13 PM
Well obvo, but should add beer money to that list
When I was a student I had a mortgage etc but didn't rack up any debt, just worked 90 hour weeks for 3 years

I don't know when you went but if you were able to get a student loan and didn't then it's likely that this just represents poor financial management.

If you went when student loans were available but didn't have to pay tuition fees then it was definitely a bad decision.
No they were not available to me.

ok then, but there was a critical element in your post so I was just pointing out that because of the structure of your debt with the Student Loans Company then it is often the more rational decision to take it then it is to avoid it - even if it would be possible for you to avoid it


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Free_Rollin on June 19, 2010, 10:23:34 PM
Dan, afaik, the obligation stands when you are in employment and are earning in excess of £15k. Since, your source of income comes from poker, I believe they will then treat this as your job. I think this situation is quite new, so even if you get in touch with the SLC I doubt they will give you a concrete answer straight away over the phone.

The usual practice is that they deduct money from your pay packet, just like paying NI for example. However, since you may not be actually making any money say one month, will they still expect money that month? I think it's best to call them and see what the situation is.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 19, 2010, 10:26:28 PM
Dan, afaik, the obligation stands when you are in employment and are earning in excess of £15k. Since, your source of income comes from poker, I believe they will then treat this as your job. I think this situation is quite new, so even if you get in touch with the SLC I doubt they will give you a concrete answer straight away over the phone.

The usual practice is that they deduct money from your pay packet, just like paying NI for example. However, since you may not be actually making any money say one month, will they still expect money that month? I think it's best to call them and see what the situation is.

They do deduct it with your pay packet, they deduct it along with the tax calculations, if your living is 'poker player' you don't get a pay packet.

But it's not a bad idea to check with them obviously.

EDIT: your first line, "when you are in employment", a poker player isn't employed by anyone and isn't self employed


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Free_Rollin on June 19, 2010, 10:37:56 PM
Repaying student loans

Student loans have to be paid back - but you don’t have to start making repayments until you’ve left your course and are earning over £15,000.

Once your earnings reach this threshold, you’ll pay back nine per cent of whatever you earn over £15,000.


Taken from the SLC (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/UniversityAndHigherEducation/StudentFinance/Gettingstarted/DG_171572)

They use the word 'earning' over £15k. I guess this turns into a legal matter, and whether a poker player could get away with not paying back at all. However, since Dan has said he doesn't want to screw the tax payer over (well played), then I guess he could start paying 9%, if his earning is over £15k. 


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 19, 2010, 10:39:07 PM
OK rather than speculating I thought I'd look it up. Obviously there isn't this specific case, but the general gist is that it's ........  unclear

It's all done through HMRC, so if you're in the tax system they work it out

Technically you are in the tax system so it should be none just as you don't pay tax, but as you don't pay tax (even though you're in the UK) they might classify you as being outside the tax system. If that was the case then it all depends on what they classify as income.

The easiest way of administering it would be to get a job for something like 10-15 hours a week and then their accountants would process it all for you, obv. the whole working part might be more hassle than just sorting it out with the SLC. But I would guess that it would be a quite tricky to get a clear answer for what exactly the answer is, and I would guess that they would probably make you jump through hoops every year to clarify whether you should be paying any back and/or how much you should be paying.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: boldie on June 20, 2010, 09:48:39 AM
Yes you have to pay it back. You borrowed 19k and that money will have to be paid back...that's what you agreed.
They might not come after you for it now but sooner or later they will and it's much easier to just start paying it back now.

Obviously it is also just wrong to borrow 19k from the tax payer and then stiff us for it.

Bloody students, if you can't afford to go to uni they shouldn't let you into uni IMO  ;)


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Girgy85 on June 20, 2010, 10:32:15 AM
Yes you have to pay it back. You borrowed 19k and that money will have to be paid back...that's what you agreed.
They might not come after you for it now but sooner or later they will and it's much easier to just start paying it back now.

Obviously it is also just wrong to borrow 19k from the tax payer and then stiff us for it.

Bloody students, if you can't afford to go to uni they shouldn't let you into uni IMO  ;)

^^ THIS ^^

it's all one big jolly to them these days!!


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 20, 2010, 11:05:43 AM
Yes you have to pay it back. You borrowed 19k and that money will have to be paid back...that's what you agreed.
They might not come after you for it now but sooner or later they will and it's much easier to just start paying it back now.

Obviously it is also just wrong to borrow 19k from the tax payer and then stiff us for it.

Bloody students, if you can't afford to go to uni they shouldn't let you into uni IMO  ;)

^^ THIS ^^

it's all one big jolly to them these days!!


lol

This was vaguely true of the first year when it was all done on student grants, the clever people coasted through the first year then worked in the latter years for their degree - the less clever people coasted through the first year then dropped out.

But now everything has to be paid for there may be an element of this but it's mainly students from well off backgrounds who still treat it like that, for example, when I went to Uni almost nobody had a part time job but now almost everybody does.

And to Boldie - you pay back a fixed percentage over £15k a year, and the loan is written off after 25 years, so plenty of people won't pay it all back.

Government policy on higher education is a complete mess, it'll take a lot of work to sort it out, it remains to be seen whether the current lot have the intelligence or the cojones to do it.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 03:16:19 AM
Yes you have to pay it back. You borrowed 19k and that money will have to be paid back...that's what you agreed.
They might not come after you for it now but sooner or later they will and it's much easier to just start paying it back now.

Obviously it is also just wrong to borrow 19k from the tax payer and then stiff us for it.

Bloody students, if you can't afford to go to uni they shouldn't let you into uni IMO  ;)

You just read the thread title and not the actual post, right?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 03:57:24 AM
Phoned them and they said that the figure that you need to be earning is £15k but thats taxable income, so since I won't be paying any income tax or NI I wouldn't be liable for any repayments at the moment, but the loan will continue to accrue interest @ 1.5% p.a.

Obviously its gunna have to be paid back at some point, but while the interest rate is still low it would be pointless to pay it back now. The interest rate structure changes in September this year though. The interest rate will be the bank of england base rate +1% (which would currently be 1.5%) or 4.4%, whichever is the lowest figure. Should the base rate rise then that'd be a good time to start putting some cash towards it but for now I think I'd rather just pay £30-£40/year in interest.

If I win it in killarney i'll probably pay some back too ;)



Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 05:29:00 AM
I thought there was a fair chance that their definition of income would be taxable income (as it's being repaid through the tax system), so that's pretty much the answer I was expecting.

The interest rate was always tied to the inflation rate - is the 4.4% the inflation rate?

If it is, it sounds like if the base rate + 1 is lower than inflation then they're using that instead.

If that's the case, isn't it better (economically not morally obv.) to never pay it back?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: erse on June 22, 2010, 05:36:59 AM
Quote
I think I'd rather just pay £30-£40/year in interest.

1% of 19k is £190

Quote
taxable income

I'd double check on this. Even though gambling isn't subject to tax... I must admit though, I've never seen a question about gambling/poker winnings on a self-assessment tax return. I do my tax return online and it asks questions to calculate any student loan repayments required.

Also bear in mind if you have kids and are into the idea of them inheriting something... the debt will have to be deducted.

It'd be worthwhile putting 1k lump sums to knock the debt down... while you can. Interest rates could easily be 10% in 5 years time :)

// I take the bit about inheriting back. Apparently if you don't pay the debt within 30-40 years...get very ill or  you happen to keel over and die, the debt is wiped.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 06:03:02 AM
25 years or you die the debt is cancelled

It is technically possible they could change the rules on how the interest is calculated - but politically it would be very difficult, difficult enough to not really worry about it.

Confused about your query on the taxable income, you say to double check this (even though he phoned the SLC) then reiterate that gambling has nothing to do with tax, and add that online self assessment asks you questions to recalculate student loan repayments - all of which just adds to the evidence that it is all based on the tax system and taxable income.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: erse on June 22, 2010, 06:26:51 AM
Quote
Confused about your query on the taxable income, you say to double check this (even though he phoned the SLC) then reiterate that gambling has nothing to do with tax, and add that online self assessment asks you questions to recalculate student loan repayments - all of which just adds to the evidence that it is all based on the tax system and taxable income.

I say double-check because although there are exceptions made for gambling income, i.e. it's tax free because of the tight margins generally involved... it's not like the government are really into the idea of a good % of people finding a way not to pay their debt back.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@educ/documents/digitalasset/dg_173548.pdf
Quote
Why might I need to pay more in this way?
Additional liability under SA can arise if:
• you have more than one employment because the
annual threshold will have been applied by each
employer when making Student Loan deductions
• all of your relevant earnings were not taken into
account by an employer
• you have other income: such as self-employed profits
and or unearned income in excess of £2,000.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/cslmanual/cslm16035.htm
Quote
Is unearned income always taken into account in computing Student Loan repayments?

Unearned income may be taken into account in computing loan repayments only if

    * The amount of unearned income exceeds the threshold, currently £2,000
    And
    * The borrower receives an SA return

So yeah... if you manage to stay in a job that earns less than 15K a year and don't have any reason to run a company... looks like you could get away with it ;)  I think the SLC could still ask you to pony up if they suspect you're earning a living wage though.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: boldie on June 22, 2010, 08:02:12 AM
Yes you have to pay it back. You borrowed 19k and that money will have to be paid back...that's what you agreed.
They might not come after you for it now but sooner or later they will and it's much easier to just start paying it back now.

Obviously it is also just wrong to borrow 19k from the tax payer and then stiff us for it.

Bloody students, if you can't afford to go to uni they shouldn't let you into uni IMO  ;)

You just read the thread title and not the actual post, right?

Pretty much.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 08:46:39 AM
...

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@educ/documents/digitalasset/dg_173548.pdf
Quote
Why might I need to pay more in this way?
Additional liability under SA can arise if:
• you have more than one employment because the
annual threshold will have been applied by each
employer when making Student Loan deductions
• all of your relevant earnings were not taken into
account by an employer
• you have other income: such as self-employed profits
and or unearned income in excess of £2,000.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/cslmanual/cslm16035.htm
Quote
Is unearned income always taken into account in computing Student Loan repayments?

Unearned income may be taken into account in computing loan repayments only if

    * The amount of unearned income exceeds the threshold, currently £2,000
    And
    * The borrower receives an SA return
...

Blimey, good find

I was rather foolishly thinking the SLC would have the information on their own site.

I've got an 'old style' student loan as well as a 'new style' one, the deferment form for the old ones asks for details of unearned income but virtually says, don't worry about it we won't use this info against you'. I was always slightly suspicious of this but I'm a bit shocked at how low a level the unearned income has to be before they'll consider taking it into account.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 08:52:42 AM
Actually, although he's not a tax expert the MD of my company says he's pretty sure the accountancy definition of unearned income is stuff like interest from savings and still wouldn't include gambling winnings.

So looks like technically the previous point of view was correct.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: piemaster on June 22, 2010, 10:31:30 AM

I say double-check because although there are exceptions made for gambling income, i.e. it's tax free because of the tight margins generally involved... it's not like the government are really into the idea of a good % of people finding a way not to pay their debt back.

It's nothing to do with tight margins.  The way the tax law works, you can only be taxed on something if it meets a set of criteria to be described as a 'trade' and gambling, simply doesn't qualify, because there is no proper 'business model' which generates income.

Of course you will probably think that's bollocks, because bookmakers, casinos and such share effectively the same base business model as professional poker players and sports bettors and they clearly pay tax on their gambling winnings.  But the fact is that nobody high up in HMRC simply really understands gambling as is it practiced today and definitely doesn't understand poker.  They're certainly not interested in taxing us, because if they do then unlike in the US we can start off-setting future gambling losses against any other income we make.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: outragous76 on June 22, 2010, 10:41:45 AM
Is the OP for real?

This is a guy who binked a big score back in November @ DTD, is quite clearly and intelligent kid.

Where do you get off "lending money" and not wanting to pay it back. I cant believe people responded with anything other than pay what you borrowed.

CLassy post


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Girgy85 on June 22, 2010, 12:05:29 PM
Is the OP for real?

This is a guy who binked a big score back in November @ DTD, is quite clearly and intelligent kid.

Where do you get off "lending money" and not wanting to pay it back. I cant believe people responded with anything other than pay what you borrowed.

CLassy post

Yea pay up you freeloader!!


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 12:17:20 PM
Is the OP for real?

This is a guy who binked a big score back in November @ DTD, is quite clearly and intelligent kid.

Where do you get off "lending money" and not wanting to pay it back. I cant believe people responded with anything other than pay what you borrowed.

CLassy post

Economists assume people act rationally - obviously they don't but that's how I tend to look at economic situations as well.

If it's cheaper to wait until you have to repay it before you do so then that's what you should do (why would you deliberately act irrationally?)


But the moral situation is mildly interesting as well.

Person A: went to university, got provided money by the government to do so, doesn't legally have to pay it back
Person B: went to university, got provided money by the government to do so, doesn't legally have to pay it back

Neither person has to pay it back, why do you think one of them should pay it back and the other shouldn't?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: outragous76 on June 22, 2010, 12:42:00 PM
Is the OP for real?

This is a guy who binked a big score back in November @ DTD, is quite clearly and intelligent kid.

Where do you get off "lending money" and not wanting to pay it back. I cant believe people responded with anything other than pay what you borrowed.

CLassy post

Economists assume people act rationally - obviously they don't but that's how I tend to look at economic situations as well.

If it's cheaper to wait until you have to repay it before you do so then that's what you should do (why would you deliberately act irrationally?)


But the moral situation is mildly interesting as well.

Person A: went to university, got provided money by the government to do so, doesn't legally have to pay it back
Person B: went to university, got provided money by the government to do so, doesn't legally have to pay it back

Neither person has to pay it back, why do you think one of them should pay it back and the other shouldn't?
its called personal ethics


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 12:42:52 PM
Is the OP for real?

This is a guy who binked a big score back in November @ DTD, is quite clearly and intelligent kid.

Where do you get off "lending money" and not wanting to pay it back. I cant believe people responded with anything other than pay what you borrowed.

CLassy post

Economists assume people act rationally - obviously they don't but that's how I tend to look at economic situations as well.

If it's cheaper to wait until you have to repay it before you do so then that's what you should do (why would you deliberately act irrationally?)


But the moral situation is mildly interesting as well.

Person A: went to university, got provided money by the government to do so, doesn't legally have to pay it back
Person B: went to university, got provided money by the government to do so, doesn't legally have to pay it back

Neither person has to pay it back, why do you think one of them should pay it back and the other shouldn't?
its called personal ethics

Does that mean you think both of them should pay it back?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: outragous76 on June 22, 2010, 12:43:59 PM
obv


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 12:46:57 PM
So you think that everybody who went to university 20/30 etc years ago should volunteer to pay the government the money that they received as grant money?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Girgy85 on June 22, 2010, 12:49:43 PM
So you think that everybody who went to university 20/30 etc years ago should volunteer to pay the government the money that they received as grant money?

Yea pay back every penny u borrowed!!


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Bongo on June 22, 2010, 12:50:49 PM
So you think that everybody who went to university 20/30 etc years ago should volunteer to pay the government the money that they received as grant money?

Yea pay back every penny u borrowed!!

A grant isn't a loan...


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: outragous76 on June 22, 2010, 12:57:13 PM
So you think that everybody who went to university 20/30 etc years ago should volunteer to pay the government the money that they received as grant money?

look up 2 words in the dictionary

grant

loan

do you think you should be prosecuted by laws from 20-30 years ago? etc etc - pointless arguement

do you think you should be judged in society the way people were 20-30 years ago?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 01:01:17 PM
So you think that everybody who went to university 20/30 etc years ago should volunteer to pay the government the money that they received as grant money?

look up 2 words in the dictionary

grant

loan
...

Words in a dictionary, exactly.

From the rational/economic point of view it makes a difference.

But from the moral point of view the semantic label that is given to each event is irrelevant, the underlying truth of each event is the same - money from the government which you legally don't have to pay back.

In addition, if you think there is a moral obligation to pay back the amount that's labeled a loan - why does it include the condition that it will be canceled after 25 years?

If there is a moral imperative to pay it back, why does it have built in obsolescence?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: outragous76 on June 22, 2010, 01:05:13 PM
So you think that everybody who went to university 20/30 etc years ago should volunteer to pay the government the money that they received as grant money?

look up 2 words in the dictionary

grant

loan
...

Words in a dictionary, exactly.

From the rational/economic point of view it makes a difference.

But from the moral point of view the semantic label that is given to each event is irrelevant, the underlying truth of each event is the same - money from the government which you legally don't have to pay back.

In addition, if you think there is a moral obligation to pay back the amount that's labeled a loan - why does it include the condition that it will be canceled after 25 years?

If there is a moral imperative to pay it back, why does it have built in obsolescence?

cba to argue today -  suffice to say that i have good morals, if others choose not to that is their choice


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 01:06:37 PM
...
cba to argue today ...

 :(


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: erse on June 22, 2010, 01:39:10 PM
Quote
If there is a moral imperative to pay it back, why does it have built in obsolescence?

If you can live 25 years (30 in Scotland) on under 15K a year (consider 15k in inflation terms in 10 years).... I think university/you failed enough that they 'let you off'.

The idea behind it all is.... you get a degree, you earn higher than average, you pay the cash back ! Somehow within all that your contribution to society is made.



Also.... it's hard to compare to students of 30 years ago. They'd wear clothes made out of arse hair and quite happily live on tinned food all year.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: boldie on June 22, 2010, 01:53:16 PM

Also.... it's hard to compare to students of 30 years ago. They'd wear clothes made out of arse hair and quite happily live on tinned food all year.

True dat, Students these days don't eat peanut butter sandwiches for 3 weeks because they wanted to buy themselves something nice...ah, happy days :)


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: boldie on June 22, 2010, 01:53:45 PM
Is the OP for real?

This is a guy who binked a big score back in November @ DTD, is quite clearly and intelligent kid.

Where do you get off "lending money" and not wanting to pay it back. I cant believe people responded with anything other than pay what you borrowed.

CLassy post

Thank you


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Amatay on June 22, 2010, 01:57:43 PM
Just seen this thread. I graduated about 8-9 yrs ago and still have an outstanding student loan of about £8k ish. Been playing poker for a living since Jan 2008 and have basically written this debt off in my mind :)


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Girgy85 on June 22, 2010, 01:58:51 PM
Just seen this thread. I graduated about 8-9 yrs ago and still have an outstanding student loan of about £8k ish. Been playing poker for a living since Jan 2008 and have basically written this debt off in my mind :)

Pay back your debts!!


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 02:08:33 PM
This is a guy who binked a big score back in November @ DTD

You must be mistaking me for someone else

btw, if you read the OP I clearly said that I'm not trying to screw over the SLC. Nowhere do I say that my plan is to not pay back any of it.

Its also easy to say 'lol obv pay it back' when the £19k bill isn't on you


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Amatay on June 22, 2010, 02:09:37 PM
Just seen this thread. I graduated about 8-9 yrs ago and still have an outstanding student loan of about £8k ish. Been playing poker for a living since Jan 2008 and have basically written this debt off in my mind :)

Pay back your debts!!

FU. I've blatched the Student Loans Company


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Girgy85 on June 22, 2010, 02:12:14 PM
This is a guy who binked a big score back in November @ DTD

You must be mistaking me for someone else

btw, if you read the OP I clearly said that I'm not trying to screw over the SLC. Nowhere do I say that my plan is to not pay back any of it.

Its also easy to say 'lol obv pay it back' when the £19k bill isn't on you

So u didnt make the FT of the DTD £330 then?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 22, 2010, 02:19:34 PM
Lolaments

Hopefully they will change it one day so students have 5 years to pay back the debt in full.

The whole only over 15k thing just shows how many people waste three years of their life at university and are still unemployable.
They could have used that 3 years to get experience on both the checkout and the stock room.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 02:22:43 PM
...

Hopefully they will change it one day so students have 5 years to pay back the debt in full.
...

That's more or less what the old system was - but only once you earned over something like 80% of the national average wage.

slightly more complex than all those people wasting it though - generally I think an oversupply of graduates due to the ridiculously random idea that just having more people go to university is a good thing in itself rather than work out 'why'.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 02:24:37 PM
Also as a point of order, there will be plenty of graduates earning over 15k a year who don't pay it all back after 25 years.

It's a fixed percentage of what you earn over 15k, so if you're earning 17/18/19k for example then the percentage you pay back each month still won't be enough to pay back the oversize loan plus interest within that time frame.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 02:26:13 PM
lol @ me thinking that this had a shot at not turning into a 'lynch the students' thread


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 02:27:49 PM
So u didnt make the FT of the DTD £330 then?

no


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: outragous76 on June 22, 2010, 02:28:32 PM
This is a guy who binked a big score back in November @ DTD

You must be mistaking me for someone else

btw, if you read the OP I clearly said that I'm not trying to screw over the SLC. Nowhere do I say that my plan is to not pay back any of it.

Its also easy to say 'lol obv pay it back' when the £19k bill isn't on you

must be - sorry

as for the 19k bill - been there paid it sunshine - didnt quibble for a second, just got on with it


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: erse on June 22, 2010, 02:30:18 PM
The threshold will seem tiny in 10 years time though.

http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/ppoweruk/result.php?use[]=CPI&use[]=NOMINALEARN&year_late=1995&typeamount=1000&amount=1000&year_source=1995&year_result=2005
In 2005, £1,000.00 from 1995 is worth
   £1,290.00   using the retail price index.
   £1,510.00   using average earnings.

So in 10 years time that 15 grand will seem like 7.5/10K in today's money. Which is minimum wage.



Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 02:33:29 PM
Unless they've changed it, it's linked to the average wage.

The old threshold was something like 80% of the average wage
the new threshold is something like 50% of the average wage


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: lazaroonie on June 22, 2010, 02:41:38 PM
it has changed from when it was first introduced in 1990 from being a loan provided by the government which could be paid back within a couple of years (i think the max loan back then was abuot 700 quid per year) of earning decent money, to basically what amounts to as a tax on students, which they are basically going to be paying at 3 or 4 % of their annual income for the forseeable future.

good enough for them. freeloading *****...



Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 02:47:01 PM
Lolaments

Hopefully they will change it one day so students have 5 years to pay back the debt in full.

The whole only over 15k thing just shows how many people waste three years of their life at university and are still unemployable.
They could have used that 3 years to get experience on both the checkout and the stock room.

Average graduate wage is £22k and you think its fair to have students pay back ~£4k a year out of what could very possibly be a small pay packet from an intermediary job after uni?

The prevailing attitude seems to be that students are given this money for the hell of it to go and get a degree and have a jolly holiday for 3 years and that the taxpayer gains nothing from this. If the social returns to higher education were not greater than the private returns then the government wouldn't fund it which is the situation we had years ago when only the rich or the very very talented went to university.

Over the years as the european economy has become more and more services and skills based, the UK needs more skilled labour as we shift away from intensive procedures like manufacturing and agriculture. Therefore the social returns to higher education rise and the government starts opening up higher education to more and more people with grants etc.

The resulting massive influx of people going to university has reduced the marginal social benefit of graduates so we now don't get grants, we get loans instead.

Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: piemaster on June 22, 2010, 02:56:42 PM
Absolutely no idea where all the hate towards the OP is coming from.  We're talking about a debt that he doesn't legally have to pay back as per the terms of the loan when he took it out.  This isn't an angle shot, he simply isn't earning enough taxable income to trigger the repayment schedule.  I would bet that over half the people giving it the 'pay what you owe' rhetoric would con far more out of the government with very little guilt if they felt they could get away with it.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 03:04:43 PM
True, I'm sure if the haters in this thread were offered a loan for £19k that there was no legally enfocable way for them to have to pay back they would snap decline.

Land prices on the moral high ground are souring


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Acidmouse on June 22, 2010, 03:07:57 PM


Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

100% agree pity the funding for the top University's is getting a right royal shafting and the standard of degree's and research will be severly effected for the coming years unless they can increase the cost to the student that attends i.e lift the cap.

Wait until the 1st Uni goes boom!? will the governent bail them out? :)


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 03:14:28 PM


Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

100% agree pity the funding for the top University's is getting a right royal shafting and the standard of degree's and research will be severly effected for the coming years unless they can increase the cost to the student that attends i.e lift the cap.

Wait until the 1st Uni goes boom!? will the governent bail them out? :)

Like I suggested before the big problem was the governments decision to massively increase numbers going to university, without having any idea how to pay for the extra - when the system as it was already had difficulties with financing.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Longy on June 22, 2010, 03:16:54 PM
I have never understood why we now have close to 50% of the population going to uni. 50% of the jobs in the uk require someone to be educated to degree level?

I personally go back to a system where only the top 15/20% go to uni and they are given grants to do so. The rest can learn a trade/job which will actually be of benefit to them and the country as a whole.

I understand none of this will happen because any government doing this will be political suicide. As this will annoy the classic swing voting lower middle class families who's little Johnny can't fuck about doing Media Studies for 3 years at the University of Lands End or some such place.



Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 03:19:55 PM
I have never understood why we now have close to 50% of the population going to uni. 50% of the jobs in the uk require someone to be educated to degree level?
...


because the government decided that 50% of the population should go to university is the nominal reason

impossible to work out anymore than that, because there was never any further explanation to it.

It would have 'helped' a lot if they'd thought about why this was meant to be a good thing, and a bit more consideration into how they were going to do it - specifically, how they were going to pay for it.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 22, 2010, 03:36:10 PM
Lolaments

Hopefully they will change it one day so students have 5 years to pay back the debt in full.

The whole only over 15k thing just shows how many people waste three years of their life at university and are still unemployable.
They could have used that 3 years to get experience on both the checkout and the stock room.

Average graduate wage is £22k and you think its fair to have students pay back ~£4k a year out of what could very possibly be a small pay packet from an intermediary job after uni?

The prevailing attitude seems to be that students are given this money for the hell of it to go and get a degree and have a jolly holiday for 3 years and that the taxpayer gains nothing from this. If the social returns to higher education were not greater than the private returns then the government wouldn't fund it which is the situation we had years ago when only the rich or the very very talented went to university.

Over the years as the european economy has become more and more services and skills based, the UK needs more skilled labour as we shift away from intensive procedures like manufacturing and agriculture. Therefore the social returns to higher education rise and the government starts opening up higher education to more and more people with grants etc.

The resulting massive influx of people going to university has reduced the marginal social benefit of graduates so we now don't get grants, we get loans instead.

Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

Im not lynching students as a whole.
Im sure a certain number are needed by the UK for economic gains and increased productivity.

I just think that too many people get no real benefit from the three years, and these people definately do not increase economic gains or productivity.
In fact they probably hinder it in general. ;)


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 03:39:27 PM
I have never understood why we now have close to 50% of the population going to uni.

Its nowhere near 50%.

In 2006 only 58.5% of people passed 5 GCSEs


The figure is about 35% at the moment but thats set to fall when the cuts come in


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: lazaroonie on June 22, 2010, 03:46:37 PM
I have never understood why we now have close to 50% of the population going to uni.

Its nowhere near 50%.

In 2006 only 58.5% of people passed 5 GCSEs


The figure is about 35% at the moment but thats set to fall when the cuts come in

95% of them are doing media studies..


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: boldie on June 22, 2010, 03:48:38 PM
Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

Media studies, History, English lit, Latin, greek etc.

why should I have to pay for people to study them?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Woodsey on June 22, 2010, 03:49:13 PM
Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

Media studies, History, English lit, Latin, greek etc.

why should I have to pay for people to study them?

Culture innit.......


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Acidmouse on June 22, 2010, 03:53:36 PM
Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

Media studies, History, English lit, Latin, greek etc.

why should I have to pay for people to study them?

Not heard this one before...maybe they should be on claiming benifits instead :)


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 22, 2010, 03:57:33 PM
Absolutely no idea where all the hate towards the OP is coming from.  We're talking about a debt that he doesn't legally have to pay back as per the terms of the loan when he took it out.  This isn't an angle shot, he simply isn't earning enough taxable income to trigger the repayment schedule.  I would bet that over half the people giving it the 'pay what you owe' rhetoric would con far more out of the government with very little guilt if they felt they could get away with it.

I have no hatred to the OP at all.
I dont know what he studied and he is obviously making $$ of his poker so good luck to him.

In all honesty if I was him I wouldnt be in a rush to make any effort to pay it back.
Saying that unless he is clever and showed he would benefit from further education I wouldnt have lent it him in the first place.

As Longy said, if people had to fight to do well at school and then college to get a place then I would be happy if the country fully funded everyone and even gave them a weekend beer allowance.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: boldie on June 22, 2010, 04:00:57 PM
Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

Media studies, History, English lit, Latin, greek etc.

why should I have to pay for people to study them?

Not heard this one before...maybe they should be on claiming benifits instead :)

But they will be after they come out of uni as all their degrees a are pointless. Unless of course they go for a job for which they don't need their degree, in which case.."why am I paying for them" is a valid question. We need more science students, not media studies.
I have no problem paying for people to go to uni but it would have to be a course which actuallyhas some benefits. If the UK is short of scientists we should be encouraging people to stud something in the science area.

If we were short of journalists or other muppets wanting to work in the media we should pay for that, until then I maintain that paying someone 19k to go and do media studies is wasted money. Especially when the budget of every dept is being slashed by approx 25%, I reckon this is an area that we can save a bit of cash on.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: boldie on June 22, 2010, 04:03:01 PM
True, I'm sure if the haters in this thread were offered a loan for £19k that there was no legally enfocable way for them to have to pay back they would snap decline.


You are taking out a loan, your intention therefore has to be that you will pay it back when you can. Otherwise it would actually be a gift, no?

This can't possibly be difficult to comprehend and has nothign to do with being on the moral high ground.

IMO, you're a benefit cheat if you don't pay it back when you actually have the means to.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Acidmouse on June 22, 2010, 04:06:49 PM
In an ideal world young adults would walk into trades, apprenticeships, good jobs from 15-16 but its not the case anymore. The governments have shaped the way it is now so its not really the students fault. Most of which are thick as fuck and can't handle proper science degree's so they do what amounts to advanced A'levels that cost the government alot less than they would be doing nothing at home on the dole.

When i left school there was 'some' choices, it seems now there are very few.

Paying back any student loan kicks in when you are earning X amount, people not paying it back until then is their business.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 04:09:01 PM
Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

Media studies, History, English lit, Latin, greek etc.

why should I have to pay for people to study them?

Not heard this one before...maybe they should be on claiming benifits instead :)

But they will be after they come out of uni as all their degrees a are pointless. Unless of course they go for a job for which they don't need their degree, in which case.."why am I paying for them" is a valid question. We need more science students, not media studies.
I have no problem paying for people to go to uni but it would have to be a course which actuallyhas some benefits. If the UK is short of scientists we should be encouraging people to stud something in the science area.

If we were short of journalists or other muppets wanting to work in the media we should pay for that, until then I maintain that paying someone 19k to go and do media studies is wasted money. Especially when the budget of every dept is being slashed by approx 25%, I reckon this is an area that we can save a bit of cash on.

Nominally the degree shows the capability for learning, so you don't need to have a degree in what your job is. In practice a lot of degrees like a lot of the media studies ones are objectively easier and a bit pointless (but it's a lot easier to expand university places with degrees like that rather than ones that need more highly qualified,highly paid academics).

The other part about culture is right, not the people who leave with an arts degree and get a job in tv production - the ones who get the 'cultural' degrees then stay in academia. The value of this is subjective obviously.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: pleno1 on June 22, 2010, 04:10:26 PM
[X] I just graduated from University
[X] I studied Journalism
[X] Fuck the haters
[X] HU 4 my loan?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 22, 2010, 04:12:46 PM
[X] I just graduated from University
[X] I studied Journalism
[X] Fuck the haters
[X] HU 4 my loan?

What would you like to be when you grow up?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 04:17:04 PM
I have never understood why we now have close to 50% of the population going to uni.

Its nowhere near 50%.

In 2006 only 58.5% of people passed 5 GCSEs


The figure is about 35% at the moment but thats set to fall when the cuts come in

95% of them are doing media studies..

Hyperbole is fun


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: pleno1 on June 22, 2010, 04:18:24 PM
[X] I just graduated from University
[X] I studied Journalism
[X] Fuck the haters
[X] HU 4 my loan?

What would you like to be when you grow up?

I currently write for a magazine (using my degree) and got a full time job yesterday as a financial adviser in a small firm in Newcastle. (a job I'd have no chance in hell getting if i didnt go to uni) How about you?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: pleno1 on June 22, 2010, 04:19:40 PM
And although my course was more specialised, do any of you actually know what media students actually learn?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 04:20:31 PM
And although my course was more specialised, do any of you actually know what media students actually learn?

 ;popcorn;


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Bongo on June 22, 2010, 04:22:07 PM
I remember one of them telling me that the Truman Show was genius and I'd never understand it because I hadn't studied it.

Why's that I asked?

'Because his whole life isn't real - it's just a TV show!' was the answer.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 04:25:46 PM

You are taking out a loan, your intention therefore has to be that you will pay it back when you can. Otherwise it would actually be a gift, no?

I took out a loan and agreed that when I had £15k a year of earned income I'd pay it back. I haven't neglected any of my obligations whatsoever.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: pleno1 on June 22, 2010, 04:26:28 PM
I know personally although over 50% of my modules were aimed at specifically journalism, I did study PR/Marketing/Law/Multiculturalism, giving me a good grasp of different knowledge, which enabled me to get a job in my first interview post graduation, which is basically unheard of.  


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Girgy85 on June 22, 2010, 04:28:15 PM
[X] I just graduated from University
[X] I studied Journalism
[X] Fuck the haters
[X] HU 4 my loan?

What would you like to be when you grow up?

I currently write for a magazine (using my degree) and got a full time job yesterday as a financial adviser in a small firm in Newcastle. (a job I'd have no chance in hell getting if i didnt go to uni) How about you?

Good work on the job mate ;)


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 04:29:54 PM

You are taking out a loan, your intention therefore has to be that you will pay it back when you can. Otherwise it would actually be a gift, no?

I took out a loan and agreed that when I had £15k a year of earned income I'd pay it back. I haven't neglected any of my obligations whatsoever.

To give you an example Boldie.

If you had an interest free mortgage which included in it's terms and conditions that you didn't have to start repaying it for 10 years, but after 1 year you won enough to pay it all off - would you pay it off early?

I'll reiterate the important part you need for a rational decision - "interest free"


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Girgy85 on June 22, 2010, 04:30:30 PM

You are taking out a loan, your intention therefore has to be that you will pay it back when you can. Otherwise it would actually be a gift, no?

I took out a loan and agreed that when I had £15k a year of earned income I'd pay it back. I haven't neglected any of my obligations whatsoever.

And get a job!!


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: pleno1 on June 22, 2010, 04:31:19 PM
[X] I just graduated from University
[X] I studied Journalism
[X] Fuck the haters
[X] HU 4 my loan?

What would you like to be when you grow up?

In answer to your initial question; I want to learn about business working in a smaller private firm where I will get lots of guidance/education, I'm just starting to purchase shares in a spread betting style, hopefully both of the above will impress potential employers and when I am a little older/more experienced I can be a trainee stock broker for a big firm in London or perhaps somewhere outside the UK. Does this suffice?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 22, 2010, 04:39:32 PM

I dont know what he studied and he is obviously making $$ of his poker so good luck to him.

In all honesty if I was him I wouldnt be in a rush to make any effort to pay it back.
Saying that unless he is clever and showed he would benefit from further education I wouldnt have lent it him in the first place.

As Longy said, if people had to fight to do well at school and then college to get a place then I would be happy if the country fully funded everyone and even gave them a weekend beer allowance.

I went to a grammar school and did Economics at Sheffield Uni so I suppose I did a 'real' degree.

If you want to give more funded university places to those that 'deserve' it (i.e. worked hard in school, college, sixth form etc.) then I certainly wouldn't qualify. School was never that hard so I just coasted through not doing a whole lot. I only went to uni because it sounded fun, didn't want to get a job and I got the grades. Its the people that do courses like media, psychology, sport science etc. at the 'fringe' universities that are often the ones slogging it out to get the grades to get in.

IMO its hugely unfair to bash people with what people tend to class as 'lesser' degrees, because there are people that work very hard for those degrees and don't deserve to be discredited. While some people might class them as 'easy' degrees, I'd love to see them have a bash at it.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: kinboshi on June 22, 2010, 04:43:09 PM
The problem is that unless there is a way the children of less-wealthy families can get a decent education from primary school all the way through to university, then we end up living in a country where there are the haves and have-nots, and many of those who will benefit from a decent education and be of value to the country will not be able to study as they weren't lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Education should not be reserved for the wealthy.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: AndrewT on June 22, 2010, 04:47:34 PM
The problem is that unless there is a way the children of less-wealthy families can get a decent education from primary school all the way through to university, then we end up living in a country where there are the haves and have-nots, and many of those who will benefit from a decent education and be of value to the country will not be able to study as they weren't lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Education should not be reserved for the wealthy.

This.

Universities have too many thick, ignorant students who happened to have wealthy parents, whilst more intelligent kids, who had to endure 10+ years of 'education' in shithole schools don't get there.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 22, 2010, 04:47:56 PM
[X] I just graduated from University
[X] I studied Journalism
[X] Fuck the haters
[X] HU 4 my loan?

What would you like to be when you grow up?

In answer to your initial question; I want to learn about business working in a smaller private firm where I will get lots of guidance/education, I'm just starting to purchase shares in a spread betting style, hopefully both of the above will impress potential employers and when I am a little older/more experienced I can be a trainee stock broker for a big firm in London or perhaps somewhere outside the UK. Does this suffice?

Er yes. I think that was the whole point.
You have a plan, you have ambition, you want to do something with your life.
Therefore from what you have wrote I would believe you the kind of person who does benefit the country by going to univeristy?
Im not sure why you assumed I was having a go at you though.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: pleno1 on June 22, 2010, 04:48:57 PM
[X] I just graduated from University
[X] I studied Journalism
[X] Fuck the haters
[X] HU 4 my loan?

What would you like to be when you grow up?

In answer to your initial question; I want to learn about business working in a smaller private firm where I will get lots of guidance/education, I'm just starting to purchase shares in a spread betting style, hopefully both of the above will impress potential employers and when I am a little older/more experienced I can be a trainee stock broker for a big firm in London or perhaps somewhere outside the UK. Does this suffice?

Er yes. I think that was the whole point.
You have a plan, you have ambition, you want to do something with your life.
Therefore from what you have wrote I would believe you the kind of person who does benefit the country by going to univeristy?
Im not sure why you assumed I was having a go at you though.

The "what do you want to be when you grow up" question came across as very condescending, but ok apologies :)


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 22, 2010, 04:52:53 PM
[X] I just graduated from University
[X] I studied Journalism
[X] Fuck the haters
[X] HU 4 my loan?

What would you like to be when you grow up?

In answer to your initial question; I want to learn about business working in a smaller private firm where I will get lots of guidance/education, I'm just starting to purchase shares in a spread betting style, hopefully both of the above will impress potential employers and when I am a little older/more experienced I can be a trainee stock broker for a big firm in London or perhaps somewhere outside the UK. Does this suffice?

Er yes. I think that was the whole point.
You have a plan, you have ambition, you want to do something with your life.
Therefore from what you have wrote I would believe you the kind of person who does benefit the country by going to univeristy?
Im not sure why you assumed I was having a go at you though.

The "what do you want to be when you grow up" question came across as very condescending, but ok apologies :)

Lol it was a tongue in cheek response to your HU 4 my loan to find out where you were headed in life if you cared to divulge, nothing more. Apologies if it came across as condescending.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 22, 2010, 04:54:46 PM

I dont know what he studied and he is obviously making $$ of his poker so good luck to him.

In all honesty if I was him I wouldnt be in a rush to make any effort to pay it back.
Saying that unless he is clever and showed he would benefit from further education I wouldnt have lent it him in the first place.

As Longy said, if people had to fight to do well at school and then college to get a place then I would be happy if the country fully funded everyone and even gave them a weekend beer allowance.

I went to a grammar school and did Economics at Sheffield Uni so I suppose I did a 'real' degree.

If you want to give more funded university places to those that 'deserve' it (i.e. worked hard in school, college, sixth form etc.) then I certainly wouldn't qualify. School was never that hard so I just coasted through not doing a whole lot. I only went to uni because it sounded fun, didn't want to get a job and I got the grades. Its the people that do courses like media, psychology, sport science etc. at the 'fringe' universities that are often the ones slogging it out to get the grades to get in.

IMO its hugely unfair to bash people with what people tend to class as 'lesser' degrees, because there are people that work very hard for those degrees and don't deserve to be discredited. While some people might class them as 'easy' degrees, I'd love to see them have a bash at it.

Why would finding it easy mean you dont deserve it? Surely it would mean you were clever and did deserve it.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: boldie on June 22, 2010, 04:59:04 PM

You are taking out a loan, your intention therefore has to be that you will pay it back when you can. Otherwise it would actually be a gift, no?

I took out a loan and agreed that when I had £15k a year of earned income I'd pay it back. I haven't neglected any of my obligations whatsoever.

To give you an example Boldie.

If you had an interest free mortgage which included in it's terms and conditions that you didn't have to start repaying it for 10 years, but after 1 year you won enough to pay it all off - would you pay it off early?

I'll reiterate the important part you need for a rational decision - "interest free"

Definitely start with it yes but I realise I might be alone on that example.

However, that's not what this situation is. This situation is a "You will start paying it back when you can afford to" type loan. You can afford to so you should start paying it off IMO. There is no difference between not paying the loan off because they can't prove how much you make and signing on using the same excuse.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 22, 2010, 05:01:57 PM
The problem is that unless there is a way the children of less-wealthy families can get a decent education from primary school all the way through to university, then we end up living in a country where there are the haves and have-nots, and many of those who will benefit from a decent education and be of value to the country will not be able to study as they weren't lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Education should not be reserved for the wealthy.

This.

Universities have too many thick, ignorant students who happened to have wealthy parents, whilst more intelligent kids, who had to endure 10+ years of 'education' in shithole schools don't get there.

Have you ever been to school with the have nots?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: boldie on June 22, 2010, 05:07:09 PM
The problem is that unless there is a way the children of less-wealthy families can get a decent education from primary school all the way through to university, then we end up living in a country where there are the haves and have-nots, and many of those who will benefit from a decent education and be of value to the country will not be able to study as they weren't lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Education should not be reserved for the wealthy.

This.

Universities have too many thick, ignorant students who happened to have wealthy parents, whilst more intelligent kids, who had to endure 10+ years of 'education' in shithole schools don't get there.

Have you ever been to school with the have nots?

No, but his butler has.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 06:00:09 PM
The problem is that unless there is a way the children of less-wealthy families can get a decent education from primary school all the way through to university, then we end up living in a country where there are the haves and have-nots, and many of those who will benefit from a decent education and be of value to the country will not be able to study as they weren't lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Education should not be reserved for the wealthy.

This.

Universities have too many thick, ignorant students who happened to have wealthy parents, whilst more intelligent kids, who had to endure 10+ years of 'education' in shithole schools don't get there.

Have you ever been to school with the have nots?

Why? Wondered where you was going with that?


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Woodsey on June 22, 2010, 06:02:11 PM
The problem is that unless there is a way the children of less-wealthy families can get a decent education from primary school all the way through to university, then we end up living in a country where there are the haves and have-nots, and many of those who will benefit from a decent education and be of value to the country will not be able to study as they weren't lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Education should not be reserved for the wealthy.

This.

Universities have too many thick, ignorant students who happened to have wealthy parents, whilst more intelligent kids, who had to endure 10+ years of 'education' in shithole schools don't get there.

Have you ever been to school with the have nots?

No thank fk :D


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: StuartHopkin on June 22, 2010, 06:25:53 PM
The problem is that unless there is a way the children of less-wealthy families can get a decent education from primary school all the way through to university, then we end up living in a country where there are the haves and have-nots, and many of those who will benefit from a decent education and be of value to the country will not be able to study as they weren't lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Education should not be reserved for the wealthy.

This.

Universities have too many thick, ignorant students who happened to have wealthy parents, whilst more intelligent kids, who had to endure 10+ years of 'education' in shithole schools don't get there.

Have you ever been to school with the have nots?

Why? Wondered where you was going with that?

Spent 5 years at one of the pretty poor schools in Notts and just think the problem was the have nots not wanting to get there, not the school.



Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 06:31:34 PM
The problem is that unless there is a way the children of less-wealthy families can get a decent education from primary school all the way through to university, then we end up living in a country where there are the haves and have-nots, and many of those who will benefit from a decent education and be of value to the country will not be able to study as they weren't lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Education should not be reserved for the wealthy.

This.

Universities have too many thick, ignorant students who happened to have wealthy parents, whilst more intelligent kids, who had to endure 10+ years of 'education' in shithole schools don't get there.

Have you ever been to school with the have nots?

Why? Wondered where you was going with that?

Spent 5 years at one of the pretty poor schools in Notts and just think the problem was the have nots not wanting to get there, not the school.



I went to school with the have nots, went to university with the haves and I've taught at schools of both

The academic part of the PGCE also included a bit of dry analysis - every one of those pointed to the same conclusion; which is pretty much what you just put.

Obviously the extremes of good and bad can make a difference, and individual very good/very bad teachers can make a difference to individuals - but generally the result was that someone who's intelligent enough will succeed whichever school they went to.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Sighmuns on June 22, 2010, 08:37:52 PM
Quote from: boldie
Bloody students, if you can't afford to go to uni they shouldn't let you into uni IMO


Surely you realise that nobody of 18 years of age can afford right then to go to uni? So you're saying that only people with rich parents should be allowed to go?

You seem to acknowledge that there are at least 'some' useful things that people can study at uni. Do you think that the best people for these few jobs that are 'useful' and we 'need' are the people from rich families then? You must think pretty highly of them.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: neeko on June 22, 2010, 09:13:43 PM
I tought that the reason govts incresed student no's to 50% was so that they could say that youth unemplyment was down, no longer were under 21's dossing around and doing nothing - they were students instead.

oh wait....


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: kinboshi on June 22, 2010, 10:52:54 PM
The problem is that unless there is a way the children of less-wealthy families can get a decent education from primary school all the way through to university, then we end up living in a country where there are the haves and have-nots, and many of those who will benefit from a decent education and be of value to the country will not be able to study as they weren't lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Education should not be reserved for the wealthy.

This.

Universities have too many thick, ignorant students who happened to have wealthy parents, whilst more intelligent kids, who had to endure 10+ years of 'education' in shithole schools don't get there.

Have you ever been to school with the have nots?

Why? Wondered where you was going with that?

Spent 5 years at one of the pretty poor schools in Notts and just think the problem was the have nots not wanting to get there, not the school.



I went to a school with have nots, at a school that did not, and got the grades I did despite the school - not because of it.

When I got to uni it was an eye-opener.  Lots of very privileged people, many who weren't the smartest (but were well-educated), and many who didn't give a toss about studying.  Education in this country is still very heavily skewed towards those fortunate enough to be born into wealthier families.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Free_Rollin on June 22, 2010, 11:11:32 PM
Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

Media studies, History, English lit, Latin, greek etc.

why should I have to pay for people to study them?

Not heard this one before...maybe they should be on claiming benifits instead :)

But they will be after they come out of uni as all their degrees a are pointless. Unless of course they go for a job for which they don't need their degree, in which case.."why am I paying for them" is a valid question. We need more science students, not media studies.
I have no problem paying for people to go to uni but it would have to be a course which actuallyhas some benefits. If the UK is short of scientists we should be encouraging people to stud something in the science area.

If we were short of journalists or other muppets wanting to work in the media we should pay for that, until then I maintain that paying someone 19k to go and do media studies is wasted money. Especially when the budget of every dept is being slashed by approx 25%, I reckon this is an area that we can save a bit of cash on.

Sigh, so many people just see these things at face value.

We need more science students, not media studies.

Why do we need more science students? What will that achieve? So scientists can carry out research? Work on cures for various diseases? But how will scientists be able to publish their findings to relevant audiences without media students?

If the UK is short of scientists we should be encouraging people to stud something in the science area.

This is true. If the UK is short of scientists, then encouragement should be made to allow potential students to discover the vast world of science, and not limit their views to more traditional ideas about science. However, pushing something that a student is not interested in at all, is pointless. In fact, it will cost the public more. I too studied Physics at university, but the reason I went into it, was not for my undying love for Schrödinger's equation. It was in fact because during my gap year, I saw that a couple of managing directors at a bank I interned at, too studied Physics. I, foolishly, tried to follow their footsteps. I wasn't given the appropriate advice from my sixth form, careers advisers, etc, and ended up wasting a couple of years of time and money. So, this leads on to my next point...

I have no problem paying for people to go to uni but it would have to be a course which actually has some benefits.

Not everyone knows what they want to go into at the age of 18. I always aspired for a career in finance, but since I didn't study Economics/Accounting/Business at GCSE/A-level, I thought that the traditional route into finance was not for me. You mention why do people study History/English, etc, but have you realised a great number of students who go into the Law profession come from these typical backgrounds. But you might say, well if they want to go into Law, why not study it in the first place? But like I said earlier, not every kid at 18 knows what he or she wants to go into as a career. So, it's beneficial for these students to study what they enjoy and have a passion for, whether it be English, History, Maths, Physics or even History of Art.

Sorry Boldie btw, not having a go at your or anything, this post is probably more to do with the fact that I am annoyed with myself for wasting a couple of years of my academic life. It's just when people post stuff implying that people should only be studying courses directly related to what they want to do in life at such a young age, annoys me.

As for the rich vs poor debate and education. The government/oxbridge/other organisations can skew and massage all the statistics they like, the truth remains that the education system heavily favours the rich.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 11:22:45 PM
...

As for the rich vs poor debate and education. The government/oxbridge/other organisations can skew and massage all the statistics they life, the truth remains that the education system heavily favours the rich.

Empirically the greatest single determinant of academic success is class.

But the same evidence suggests it's not because the education system favours the middle and upper classes, it's - er - well it's complicated. But the gist of it is that the middle classes (the biggest by far social group to 'benefit' from the education system) are more likely to value education, make time for it and foster the environment in which the pupils from that background will succeed.

It's not all about attitude though, for example at a practical level more affluent families are more likely to have only one parent working - which has repercussions for success at school - stuff like that might be considered a structural bias against the working class but buggered if anyone can work out how to fix it.


This is much better, because I don't have to wiki even a little bit of it :)
Although technically I haven't looked at anything to do with it (outside of newspapers) for 6 or 7 years so it could be all out of date


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Free_Rollin on June 22, 2010, 11:38:14 PM
...

As for the rich vs poor debate and education. The government/oxbridge/other organisations can skew and massage all the statistics they life, the truth remains that the education system heavily favours the rich.

Empirically the greatest single determinant of academic success is class.

But the same evidence suggests it's not because the education system favours the middle and upper classes, it's - er - well it's complicated. But the gist of it is that the middle classes (the biggest by far social group to 'benefit' from the education system) are more likely to value education, make time for it and foster the environment in which the pupils from that background will succeed.

It's not all about attitude though, for example at a practical level more affluent families are more likely to have only one parent working - which has repercussions for success at school - stuff like that might be considered a structural bias against the working class but buggered if anyone can work out how to fix it.


This is much better, because I don't have to wiki even a little bit of it :)
Although technically I haven't looked at anything to do with it (outside of newspapers) for 6 or 7 years so it could be all out of date

But doesn't defining class become a whole new arguement in it self? How do we define social classes? Also, isn't this typically a direct correlation to wealth?

I would also say a lot more people nowadays would call themselves middle class, even when their status doesn't typically comply with such a definition?

I think saying that middles class value education more so than others, is probably true. However, again, it's probably only true because it is only accessible and a useful tool for them at the time. How are some people going to value something, they truly haven't been able to experience or even know what it is? Secondly, do middle class really value education in itself, or do they value the fact it is a tool that will enable them to succeed in life in terms of status and money? I for one only saw it as a stepping stone to allow me where I want to be in life say 10 years from now, hence why I was studying a subject I had to no passion for. Now, I probably see things a bit differently.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Sighmuns on June 22, 2010, 11:44:58 PM
Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

Media studies, History, English lit, Latin, greek etc.

why should I have to pay for people to study them?

Not heard this one before...maybe they should be on claiming benifits instead :)

But they will be after they come out of uni as all their degrees a are pointless. Unless of course they go for a job for which they don't need their degree, in which case.."why am I paying for them" is a valid question. We need more science students, not media studies.
I have no problem paying for people to go to uni but it would have to be a course which actuallyhas some benefits. If the UK is short of scientists we should be encouraging people to stud something in the science area.

If we were short of journalists or other muppets wanting to work in the media we should pay for that, until then I maintain that paying someone 19k to go and do media studies is wasted money. Especially when the budget of every dept is being slashed by approx 25%, I reckon this is an area that we can save a bit of cash on.

Sigh, so many people just see these things at face value.

We need more science students, not media studies.

Why do we need more science students? What will that achieve? So scientists can carry out research? Work on cures for various diseases? But how will scientists be able to publish their findings to relevant audiences without media students?

If the UK is short of scientists we should be encouraging people to stud something in the science area.

This is true. If the UK is short of scientists, then encouragement should be made to allow potential students to discover the vast world of science, and not limit their views to more traditional ideas about science. However, pushing something that a student is not interested in at all, is pointless. In fact, it will cost the public more. I too studied Physics at university, but the reason I went into it, was not for my undying love for Schrödinger's equation. It was in fact because during my gap year, I saw that a couple of managing directors at a bank I interned at, too studied Physics. I, foolishly, tried to follow their footsteps. I wasn't given the appropriate advice from my sixth form, careers advisers, etc, and ended up wasting a couple of years of time and money. So, this leads on to my next point...

I have no problem paying for people to go to uni but it would have to be a course which actually has some benefits.

Not everyone knows what they want to go into at the age of 18. I always aspired for a career in finance, but since I didn't study Economics/Accounting/Business at GCSE/A-level, I thought that the traditional route into finance was not for me. You mention why do people study History/English, etc, but have you realised a great number of students who go into the Law profession come from these typical backgrounds. But you might say, well if they want to go into Law, why not study it in the first place? But like I said earlier, not every kid at 18 knows what he or she wants to go into as a career. So, it's beneficial for these students to study what they enjoy and have a passion for, whether it be English, History, Maths, Physics or even History of Art.

Sorry Boldie btw, not having a go at your or anything, this post is probably more to do with the fact that I am annoyed with myself for wasting a couple of years of my academic life. It's just when people post stuff implying that people should only be studying courses directly related to what they want to do in life at such a young age, annoys me.

As for the rich vs poor debate and education. The government/oxbridge/other organisations can skew and massage all the statistics they like, the truth remains that the education system heavily favours the rich.

Good post.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: Jon MW on June 22, 2010, 11:47:38 PM
...

But doesn't defining class become a whole new arguement in it self? How do we define social classes? Also, isn't this typically a direct correlation to wealth?

I would also say a lot more people nowadays would call themselves middle class, even when their status doesn't typically comply with such a definition?

I think saying that middles class value education more so than others, is probably true. However, again, it's probably only true because it is only accessible and a useful tool for them at the time. How are some people going to value something, they truly haven't been able to experience or even know what it is? Secondly, do middle class really value education in itself, or do they value the fact it is a tool that will enable them to succeed in life in terms of status and money? I for one only saw it as a stepping stone to allow me where I want to be in life say 10 years from now, hence why I was studying a subject I had to no passion for. Now, I probably see things a bit differently.

It was like a whole week we talked and wrote about this, way too  much detail for me to remember go in to

Simple classifications of class based on occupation and income - as used by economists
Isn't saying they value it because of what they can gain from it almost a tautology? There's an element of the pursuit of knowledge is worthwhile in itself but primarily the reason it's valued doesn't seem to be pertinent to the outcome.

And sociologically you could probably ascribe the 19th century working class to not valuing education as they had no experience of it's benefit, but I think you can't really generalise over too wide a group nowadays as the notion of upward mobility has been so entrenched by now. Even if you don't aspire to it - there isn't that much of a demographic who isn't at least aware of it.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: DMorgan on June 23, 2010, 05:15:17 AM
Empirically the greatest single determinant of academic success is class.

Probably true but its close - parents level of education is also a huge determinant. In most of the empirical research that I've looked at from Labour Economics modules, household income and class are interchangeable.

In saying that, both of my parents left school at 16, I've just graduated and my sister goes to uni this September

Variance can be a bitch


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: kinboshi on June 23, 2010, 06:01:58 AM
Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

Media studies, History, English lit, Latin, greek etc.

why should I have to pay for people to study them?

Not heard this one before...maybe they should be on claiming benifits instead :)

But they will be after they come out of uni as all their degrees a are pointless. Unless of course they go for a job for which they don't need their degree, in which case.."why am I paying for them" is a valid question. We need more science students, not media studies.
I have no problem paying for people to go to uni but it would have to be a course which actuallyhas some benefits. If the UK is short of scientists we should be encouraging people to stud something in the science area.

If we were short of journalists or other muppets wanting to work in the media we should pay for that, until then I maintain that paying someone 19k to go and do media studies is wasted money. Especially when the budget of every dept is being slashed by approx 25%, I reckon this is an area that we can save a bit of cash on.

Sigh, so many people just see these things at face value.

We need more science students, not media studies.

Why do we need more science students? What will that achieve? So scientists can carry out research? Work on cures for various diseases? But how will scientists be able to publish their findings to relevant audiences without media students?

If the UK is short of scientists we should be encouraging people to stud something in the science area.

This is true. If the UK is short of scientists, then encouragement should be made to allow potential students to discover the vast world of science, and not limit their views to more traditional ideas about science. However, pushing something that a student is not interested in at all, is pointless. In fact, it will cost the public more. I too studied Physics at university, but the reason I went into it, was not for my undying love for Schrödinger's equation. It was in fact because during my gap year, I saw that a couple of managing directors at a bank I interned at, too studied Physics. I, foolishly, tried to follow their footsteps. I wasn't given the appropriate advice from my sixth form, careers advisers, etc, and ended up wasting a couple of years of time and money. So, this leads on to my next point...

I have no problem paying for people to go to uni but it would have to be a course which actually has some benefits.

Not everyone knows what they want to go into at the age of 18. I always aspired for a career in finance, but since I didn't study Economics/Accounting/Business at GCSE/A-level, I thought that the traditional route into finance was not for me. You mention why do people study History/English, etc, but have you realised a great number of students who go into the Law profession come from these typical backgrounds. But you might say, well if they want to go into Law, why not study it in the first place? But like I said earlier, not every kid at 18 knows what he or she wants to go into as a career. So, it's beneficial for these students to study what they enjoy and have a passion for, whether it be English, History, Maths, Physics or even History of Art.

Sorry Boldie btw, not having a go at your or anything, this post is probably more to do with the fact that I am annoyed with myself for wasting a couple of years of my academic life. It's just when people post stuff implying that people should only be studying courses directly related to what they want to do in life at such a young age, annoys me.

As for the rich vs poor debate and education. The government/oxbridge/other organisations can skew and massage all the statistics they like, the truth remains that the education system heavily favours the rich.

Science reporting in the media is pretty appalling on the whole, especially outside the specialist publications and sites.

Mainstream media does not do science very well at all.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: boldie on June 23, 2010, 08:11:06 AM
Bottom line is that the UK needs graduates and the economic gains from increased productivity affect everybody positively.

Media studies, History, English lit, Latin, greek etc.

why should I have to pay for people to study them?

Not heard this one before...maybe they should be on claiming benifits instead :)Everybody can go to uni and some people that do go are simply not cut out for it. there is nothing wr ong with that but that's just the way it is.

The problem I have with OP is that, effectively, he has said "I will pay back the loan when I can afford to" and is now trying to weasle out of it by saying "But the money I make now doesn't count"

But they will be after they come out of uni as all their degrees a are pointless. Unless of course they go for a job for which they don't need their degree, in which case.."why am I paying for them" is a valid question. We need more science students, not media studies.
I have no problem paying for people to go to uni but it would have to be a course which actuallyhas some benefits. If the UK is short of scientists we should be encouraging people to stud something in the science area.

If we were short of journalists or other muppets wanting to work in the media we should pay for that, until then I maintain that paying someone 19k to go and do media studies is wasted money. Especially when the budget of every dept is being slashed by approx 25%, I reckon this is an area that we can save a bit of cash on.

Sigh, so many people just see these things at face value.

We need more science students, not media studies.

Why do we need more science students? What will that achieve? So scientists can carry out research? Work on cures for various diseases? But how will scientists be able to publish their findings to relevant audiences without media students?

If the UK is short of scientists we should be encouraging people to stud something in the science area.

This is true. If the UK is short of scientists, then encouragement should be made to allow potential students to discover the vast world of science, and not limit their views to more traditional ideas about science. However, pushing something that a student is not interested in at all, is pointless. In fact, it will cost the public more. I too studied Physics at university, but the reason I went into it, was not for my undying love for Schrödinger's equation. It was in fact because during my gap year, I saw that a couple of managing directors at a bank I interned at, too studied Physics. I, foolishly, tried to follow their footsteps. I wasn't given the appropriate advice from my sixth form, careers advisers, etc, and ended up wasting a couple of years of time and money. So, this leads on to my next point...

I have no problem paying for people to go to uni but it would have to be a course which actually has some benefits.

Not everyone knows what they want to go into at the age of 18. I always aspired for a career in finance, but since I didn't study Economics/Accounting/Business at GCSE/A-level, I thought that the traditional route into finance was not for me. You mention why do people study History/English, etc, but have you realised a great number of students who go into the Law profession come from these typical backgrounds. But you might say, well if they want to go into Law, why not study it in the first place? But like I said earlier, not every kid at 18 knows what he or she wants to go into as a career. So, it's beneficial for these students to study what they enjoy and have a passion for, whether it be English, History, Maths, Physics or even History of Art.

Sorry Boldie btw, not having a go at your or anything, this post is probably more to do with the fact that I am annoyed with myself for wasting a couple of years of my academic life. It's just when people post stuff implying that people should only be studying courses directly related to what they want to do in life at such a young age, annoys me.

As for the rich vs poor debate and education. The government/oxbridge/other organisations can skew and massage all the statistics they like, the truth remains that the education system heavily favours the rich.

Sorry can't quote bits and pieces because, for some reason, a long post on Blonde is tricky to work with on my internet explorer (I can't see what I type ;) )

you are right of course in that 18 YOs should not be held responsible for what they want to study as they can have no idea. I did Consumer Studies (don't ask me what it means, I still don't know) for my first degree and it was a waste of time IMO. Then I went to work and a few years later went to study International Economic Relations (T'was a bit of fun, not a field I am actually working in but the Dutch govt was paying for it under the terms of my work contract  so "why not?").
A complete overhaul of the system would be good IMO (Have people go to uni after working for a few years), but this is always going to be tricky and never going to happen.

TBH, I don't mind what people study, (As long as it's not something ridiculous) if people want to better themselves that can only be a good thing. I do think Univerisities should not be accessible to all. By that I don't mean from a class/money perspective but from a "Are you smart enough?" angle.
Uni isn't for everybody and it shouldn't be. Univerisities should only focus on the best and brightest and not on the masses. Therefore setting targets of "50% of all kids should go to uni" is simply ridiculous IMO. (And there is still no excuse for media studies). Obv class will always be important, there will always be "haves and have nots". The rich will always have access to better healthcare, education etc. They will also be able to drive nicer cars and buy bigger houses. Nothing that will ever be done can change this and it's not that big of a problem really. We should make education free for the clever kids but we can't do that until we decide that not everyone from an average background can go to uni, simply because they are not all smart enough to go.

The problem I have with OP is that he said "I will pay back when I can" when he took out the loan and is now weasling out of it by saying "But the money I make now doesn't count". It's like he doesn't see the link between his debt not being paid off and some other student having bigger debts as the cost of going to uni goes up because people are not paying off their debts. Talk to your granny with her state pension and explain that "Well, one of the reasons your pension is shit is because I can't be arsed paying back the £19k I borrowed".
That's the part that bothers me really.


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: mondatoo on June 23, 2010, 08:40:14 AM
Uni's are a joke,any mug can get in*















*No I never went,I didn't get the grades  ;marks;


Title: Re: Student loans - do we have to pay it back?
Post by: MANTIS01 on June 24, 2010, 01:30:53 PM
I think it's a good idea to get into the habit of paying debts back when you can rather than we you have to.