blonde poker forum

10 left, 5 paid

Above average stack, but not by much

blinds 1-2k, I have 28k. Only 207k in play

The chip leader has 60k

I am in the bb with  Kc Jd

chip leader limps in mid position. This is unusual. No reason why they should be limping anything with that stack, and its the first limp I've seen from them in 90 minutes same table play, when they have been big stacked throughout. Occasional unconventional play apart this is an experienced and knowledgeable player.

sb completes short stack 12k

I check

flop  Jh Tc 6c

sb checks

Intending to lead, I see the chip leader already reaching for chips

I check

Leader bets 5,000

Considering the crai because AJ/JJ/TT would have raised pre. 66 maybe limps.  Just an attempt to buy an orphan pot maybe.

Your thoughts please

i'd prolly just CRAI

I struggle to see what you mean by experienced and knowledgeable when he open limps in MP.

Experienced and knowledgeable in what field?

Yeah just get it in once he bets.

Hasn't he just turned his hand face up as AA/KK wanting to be paid off? Seems to be a fairly common live move.

Erm.......

No.

Whilst it may well be AA/KK there's no way in the world this could ever be considered "face up"

has sb passed?

yes

I'm guessing your only concern is how to extract max value and not worrying about whether or not you may be behind?

Top pair + K kicker is the immortal nuts when you've only got 14 bigs so you just need to figure out how to get him to commit to your stack.

Crai often looks like some kind of draw. This board looks like it may well connect with a lot of different hands so ship now looks like a pretty good option. Oppo can definitely call with plenty of hands that you beat.

Fairy nuff.

What other handsdo you consider to be in the range of an experienced and knowledgable player who open limps - on the final table - for the first time in at least 90 minutes?

Theres something misleading with the story.

Tighty says he is experienced and knowledgable.

There is 119k between 8 of the players, 15k each, 7 bigs. There is no hand he should be limping with. Therefore he obviously is experienced and knowledgable at being bad.

Therefore I would guess his limp means any pair, any two pictures, any suited ace?

Dont think we can worry about it though playing so shallow, we have top pair, get it in.

There are one or two players at Luton who might do this and it'd be screaming out.  Who was it Rich?

Edna

aces?

Against Edna, as described, once i've seen her reaching for her chips I'm check folding.

surely not? It's not polarised to Aces, surely?

Ok so now you've narrowed it down to a specific player who you have played with on many occasions.

From what Claire says against this player it is a clear cut fold and I have no reason to doubt that.

You really can't ask everyone else for help because this is a very specific set of circumstances and to be honest you should know better than us.

What does your instinct tell you? If you think she only limps with huge hands then obv fold.

The standard play here is to get it in. If can come up with a good reason to fold then fold.

A very large %age of the time Edna has aces here - always limps with them in this kind of spot, raises most other big aces, PPs I think.  I'm happy just to let go having only invested the big blind - if she's bluffed me off, fair enough.

If Edna is the lady I am thinking off then you are right it is Aces as a minimum.

I have only played at Luton once but recall someone laying down a K high flush to her mini check raise on the turn and sure enough she turned over the Ace high flush!

LOL, To say Edna has Aces here a large % of the time is laughable. I've seen Edna limp into hundreds of flops at every stage of a competition from almost every position and has probably had Aces 3-5 times maximum. Anyone who thinks Edna always has the nuts is kidding themselves.

I know the result of this hand and it hasn't changed my views.

Edna is a serial flop seeker. A10, JQ, KQ, A5 soooooooted etc are all well within her range here.

Only played Edna a couple of times and this is the impression I got.

I'm guessing the hand turns out bad for Tighty here?

Main reason I think this is that the hand seems ridiculously trivial with no analysis required but Rich needs to check his line.

She plays like you then

does the fact she's not limped for 90 minutes then chooses to in this spot not raise any alarm bells with you at all Vinny? 

Might be a bit strange but refer back to my other post.

not really, her range is a lot tighter than mine.

Luton now give 1,500 bonus chips for early arrival. Last Friday they used the "add on"  field on the screen to account for thiese extra chips.

Last night, despite my request to Callum , he didn't do this.  Chips in play would have been 46 x 4,500 (=207k) plus 32 earlies at 1,500 = 255,000 total.  It may not change anything in this hand but a nearly 25% difference in chip count is quite significant.  I think they should treat this consistently on the screens there.

But do you fold, shove or call?

despite what has been said re opponent i am still not check/folding TPGK+BD draws with a shallow stack and not convinced that it can be "aces as a minimum" (lol), whatever the result of the hand.

Richard, you said you were going to lead - surely you are not bet/folding the flop?

The important thing to note here Rich is that your initial strategy was to lead the flop. By the definition of this action you don't polarise villain's range as just an overpair. No point leading into a big pair is there. So the range question is already answered by your thoughts and it's pointless debating it further cos you were at the table. And we're not leading for info right...no thoughts of b/folding? So we're leading to get chips in? Why don't we lead anymore when villain reaches? Leading would be a good way to get chips in against a reaching villain. Oh so we don't lead and we let her bluff an orphan pot instead. If this is what you think I don't like the mentality of wanting to CRAI after you let her bluff.

If you commit to this hand, and I think you pretty much should, I don't think CRAI will max the value. I think leading is still good and c/c is ok as well. But I think what you want to happen and how you go about making that happen is pretty conflicting in this hand.

Think we have to fold pre in an unraised pot if we don't plan to get it all in here - whoever the villain is

folding a free flop from the BB is something only my dad would do

wise man, stay out of trouble

as its edna aa is a distinct pos here...if she is first in then likely ..limping bhind range is much wider..however 14 bb deep shes getting my money on that flop

the analysis is simple enough. I can lead, c/c or c/r with the intention of getting it in at whatever stage

At the table, and then privately afterwards two people said "it had to be Aces". I really don't think it was that simple.

So it was aces then. If there ever was a truism in poker that everyone plays perfectly in hindsight and knows exactly what people had.

Even though i know it was Aces, i still don't think she has Aces.

What you think Middymonster?

Sigh, Middytubby has gone.

True enough, and I find such comments rattle me more than they should "I should have known that too" etc etc

In this specific instande I would lead as you will get called by worse pairs and less chance money will go in if she has a small pair

If people at the table are saying it's always Aces, and she's an experienced and knowledgeable player, i'd figure her range is half the deck.

You did know it at the time they said it to you.

Metagametastical

:( sorry

Never in doubt Edna has aces here. Hope you realised and didn't ship it in. That would have been poor play.

:D

I thought about doing this in a tournament last week because:
a. I thought I'd get a couple of limpers on my BB
b. I had loads of chips
c. I thought it'd be funny

but they spoiled my fun by giving me a walk :(

I don't know the player but live players are usually massive nits so I'm not really too thrilled about getting it in here. Your standard live nit isn't betting a T or a flush draw here so we're only beating QJ and J9, but it doesn't really seem to make any sense for her to limp those hands given that there just hasn't been any limping going on.

I guess I could just be results oriented through reading the whole thread but when I first looked at it, really did seem like aces.

The line of 'lol we have top pair with 14BBs we're all in' is a bit short sighted imo. Yes against a wide (or even tight-ish) limping range we can get this in and be happy about it but we're talking about a very tight limping range here that for all we know could be AA only given that this is the players first open limp in 90 minutes. The fact that she reaches for chips too....tight live players just don't bluff in this spot so I don't think its nearly as clear cut as a lot of people are saying.

Live players are massive nits!? They are just a massive mad mix of bad nutters.

Mind you, anyone is a nit compared to you. Think it was the first time I'd played at DTD and had someone play more hands than me.

Shared a table with Edna last night, limped into about 10 pots, didn't have Aces once.

Why is villain being tagged as a massive nit? OP tags her as experienced/knowledgeable. A player who is experienced, knowledgeable, and prone to unconventional play doesn't have a limping range of just AA here. She can easily have eg JQs that she's played unconventionally or to mix it up. Or she could decide to just limp and snap take it down on any flop, hence the reach. Perhaps the old lady enjoys seeing the suspicious regs bricking it when she limps. I don't think it's short sighted to want the money in when the flop comes down cos that's where our stack kinda makes us to decide. I mean how many of the 14bb's are we putting in before we pull out?

Shove pre :D

That's a pretty good point by our esteemed bracelet holder.

Looks like a decent spot to pick up some easy free chips.

I actually had a few hands!

My shove to bust was awful though, he was never folding TPTK in a million years which is what he almost certainly has in that spot like....always.
What did you have anyway? I was planning on 4betting you and kinda got stumped when the guy cold called your 3bet.

Just to clarify when I say live players are nits, they tend to be when the blinds get big and stacks get as short, in bubble and final table situations etc. as they are here. Especially some of the older players.