blonde poker forum

10£-25£ live game 2 seats straddling in a 9max

Stacks are Villian 5k£ish, co 4k£ish, hero covers both.

Villian is a "reg" in the live games in london, limps nearly all of his range preflop, when isoed he folds, calls and raises. History shows he is raising QQ+ without AK calling nearly every pair and folding random limped hands unless he is getting a  "good price" 3 or more have already called behind lol. When in a hand he bets large proportions of the pot most of the time and is quite obv to me when strong / not folding made hands. Also does not play draws quickly ie always takes one off b4 putting money in the middle, a proper dirty nit and maybe a small winner.

Utg limps, villian limps, hj limps, co limps, hero otb with  3h 3s limps, sb completes and bb checks. Pot is 175£

Flop  Kd 8h 3s checks to the hj who bets 100£ a single chip, co folds, i call and the villian quickly makes it 375£, co folds and i think for a while and call.

Turn  6c no bd flush availible. Villian bets 900£. Hero tanks folds.

Basically i felt like a dirty lil nit after folding here, but even this morning i feel like its a good fold. Also any1 think i can consider folding the flop here? I mean he NEVER has a bluff range here so i guess K8s is poss deffo not K8o, then KK, AA and 88. 1005 think he is leading AK on the flop and deffo never c/ring.

Thoughts? (dont want ppl telling me wat to do preflop btw lol)

if you think he wouldn't play AA/AK this way too then I think you made a good fold

When you say that he limps almost all of his range pre, do you reckon he's still limping AA/KK UTG+1 after an UTG limp?

Sounds like you have solid reads on this guy so it'd be a good fold as long as we're sure that he won't spaz out and overplay Kx like this

die nits, but we haz set :(

100% still poss that he will overlimp

cos AA and AK deffo lead the flop

prob the nittest of them all sighs

This is why I kinda hate/love live, plays like this seem correct. How can that ever be right sigh.


niiiiiiiiiiiiits


(nice stack size brag btw) :)up

Then his range has to be KK, 88 and K8s and there are only 2 combos of K8s and 6 of KK and 88 so nice fold

Is he really leading pot size on the turn with a set?

what are we hoping, that he suddenly c/r 79ss because he knows how nitty he looks and it's a dry board, and then bink turn to allow him to continue?

is it me or is K8s generous for a nit.

Surely if he has a set he wants to keep oppo in the hand, there are very few hands that are calling a pot size bet there.

nits make a hand and bet. that's what they do. (some nits don't even bet often enough lol)

Would we not be better on calling the turn and folding most rivers?  If he has it he will barrell again if not we can get some value? Or is it too much a spew?

what worse is he vbetting? just K8s.

what hands/frequency is he 'bluffing' with?

Andy is desperately trying to find a reason to call :D

If he never takes this line with 1 pair then I guess a fold is fine. What would be his default line with AK here then? Bet flop and then check call mode? Granted there's no two pair combo's out there and the board is super dry.

That's poker, put them on two cards you can beat and CAWL



folding sets is pooooooey me no likey even if its best play !!  ;grr;

surely if anything it's a peel turn and then make decision on river, which if he bets will involve lots of wincing.

given ur read shouldnt u fold the flop? cos if hes bluff raising ever u should probs call the turn unless hes just decided to give up

Is there ever a chance he's making a play on the dry board because of his image? if so then we have to peel flop if not sigh and fold and wish we could have been up against anyone else in the hand?

[ ] folding a set on a dry rainbow board
I'm not good enough to fold a set ever on this board

loled hard at skolsupers Channing post. wpwpwpw.

1. we have a set so im not folding.

2. amirite in thinking you're Toby Lewis? If so, I'm gussing you're playing really aggro so his bet sizes can mean 2 things.

1) "he's an internet kid, i got him this time I'm going to bet huge and he'; def call me as he showed 85s in one hand last week"

2) "he never believes me he prob has 78s, if i make a big bet here he prob folds"

I think he prob has AA/AK/88.

fold pre

If you don't do this


Your intention should be to do this:


I don't know if you usually play at these limits but would you have folded if you were facing a £400 stack at a 1/2 table?

200 bigs doesn't seem deep enough to be passing a set on such a dry board.

Keep going Andy... :D

points for trying pls.


And pie that is evil, nowhere here has the amount been mentioned as a problem, it's the fact we don't think we beat anything he plays this way.

Who said you could comment in this thread?

You short handed specialists know nothing about full ring

6 max is just 9 max with 3 nits assumed to have folded napkins. :)up

Against some of the guys in the vic (i'm assuming this is there) they can be diagf-esque nits.

Think u play the hand about right !

are people serious about folding pre?

U gonna brown nose Toby on every single thread? :P

If oppo is that easy to read then fair enough. Are we saying that he doesn't have a single move in his arsenal?

He's playing in a pretty big game here so surely we can't assume he's 100% abc?

If he is then fair enuff we fold. We probably shouldn't be playing against him though.

We're not 'against him' though we're at a 9 handed table and he's there too, he's just wasting a seat if he's playing that face up.

In live cash we should be raising this otb for pure value.  Now we have a set - thats like 3 of a kind so I am pretty much never passing.

folding 0%
raising 1%
calling 99%

are you talking about raising pre or on the flop?

pre is a flat cawl

 pre flop I think it is a raise , 33 is ahead of most live pre flop limps and raises.

But he's in this pot that we've just limped in to.

Surely if we're considering passing a set to him we should just avoid him. How are we ever going to win a pot against him?

Yes we'll pick up a few quid when he limp folds or check/folds a flop but we're literally never going to win a big pot because we are saying that we automatically assume he always has us beat unless he folds.

Playing 9 handed with 8 of this guy is printing money, DUCY?

Yup. Not if we fold every time they bet and we haven't got the stone cold nuts though.

This^

call turn and river...

worst case scenario, we have one out.. and you are toby lewis ;-)

Never folding on this board even vs a nit

+1

incred.



ha brilliant.

dont play live alot do u jezza

pretty terribad way of thinking about this hand imo, ive stressed in the original post that the villian is very very tight and plays very face up. saying we hav a set u cant ever fold means that ur not thinking that this is in a 10-25 london cash game wher the guy has bet 900 english sterling pounds in a pot now for me / you this is 900 and not 900£ like it is to the villian.  

If it was anybody else at the table, would you have folded Toby?

depends obv all player dependent. but on that specific table i wouldnt hav folded to any1 else no.

ok u played the hand correct in this instance so well done an get the chavs to talk about something more challenging !

Well it'd be almost as low variance

Given all these reads that he's such a massive nit and must have your set beat why did you call the flop?

This suggests that you think he's capable of having at least one stab at a pot without the nuts.

What hand could he check/raise the flop with that at the time you thought you were beating?

Did he show?

if you could see one of his cards, like he gave you an option before you made a decision and he showed you the   Kd what do you do?

Never fold because people almost never show one when they have a pair in their hand

If the answer depends entirely on your special understanding of the dynamics between you and villain then I don't see the purpose of the thread. So you can say to people they are wrong because they don't understand the situation as well as you do? I would wake up the next day and still feel like a horrible nit for folding this. His tendencies are only part of the answer, they are tendancies, maybe he read something about being aggro with tp since last time he played you, maybe he saw Gus Hanson play K-Q this way on the telly, maybe he thinks he's value-towning a LAG, any of those things are as likely as he has a set of Kings. If you are saying he never never has less than a set what's the question again?? Never folding the turn myself. 

The OP was describing the dynamic and giving an insight to reads and history with the villian, because the question is NOT how me, you or anyone would have played the hand, but asking for us to critique the hand as played, and offer any worthwhile opinons on how our HERO played the hand....so that is the point of the thread.

My opinion.
I would fold on the turn vs the generic live super nit I play with in my games. I would DEFO NOT TELL ANYONE THO ;)

He's metagaming - telling us he folds sets.  Never happened ;)

Once again getting way to complex for me with advanced english being used!! think in general people commenting on this have to realise that at certain levels making these sort of passes are the reason why some people can make it up to the level of £10 £25 blinds ai its not always a case of ive got a set its a cooler. Probaly if hero only has 200bb then its always going in but sometimes the money influences the mind to be scared an convinces them to believe the player has him beat. But the player toby has described would be probaly likely to have kk or 88,almost reminds me of my game a few years back! But i have to sort of agree a bit woth keys as alot of solid players do have random spazz outs an be creative at times an get away with ridicolous plays. an to be honest TOBY LEWIS PASSES A SET ! wow !

I'm not especially good at the poker but given the description of villain I''d not be surprised to learn that he limps in with 88 and it's pretty safe to assume that he knows hero doesn't limp in with KK

OK, just so I've got it straight. The reason we make it to this level is because we can make passes like this. But in the same breath we must understand that our oppo, who has also made it to this level, is the worse kind of terrible. Yep understand that.

ta dah  :D

errrrrm you make it to that level being able to play against peoples specific ranges and making the best plays you can not saying i've made an absolute hand strength im unable to fold, nothing like binking a few donkies to help you be rolled for it though. And you do realise, that there are lots of old men in London with lots of money who believe 'tight is right'? There are also tonnes of people with more money than the ability to use logic and reason?!

You're not helping your argument for the call here.

WE HAZ SETTTTTT

that's another +1 for the calling argument :)up

i think i prefer fold face up and never fold to him in future pots than fold face down fwiw

Why can't a tight player who is rich think Ak or KQ plays well vs the range of his much looser opponent?

lol how the fk do u come to that conclusion?

Do you think Guy Laliberte was playing $1k/2k online because he managed to grind his way through the ranks?

sigh i'm just making the point that most of the people in this game haven't ground their br's from the small games up.

There are alot of idiots in the world, and sadly/luckily alot have money. If this guy is playing his cards as the reads suggest not 'poker' then it's a fold and maybe go home and open jam plo microstakes for a while to detilt. rotflmfao

Dearie me.

here we go hope this helps
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQuw4CfMlOg

EDIT* how the fuuuuuuuk do i EMBED this youtube clip :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQuw4CfMlOg

Sorry, I ask again, if villain only ever shows up here with 88 or KK and that's a fact from reads/history what is the purpose of the thread??

omg. The OP describes how he played the hand. Explains why he played it like that and is asking for opinions on his play, if you think villians range is wider, and would have taken a different line for w/e reason then please explain and contribute.

I'm with mantis.

this is why your wife makes more at poker than you do now.

I hope you always remember fondly the times when you won at pokers

OP has already stated that hand is player dependant, he wouldn't fold to anyone else, but he folded specifically vs this guy because of the personal history/read which polarises villain's hand to the nuts. So what kind of contribution do you think is valid/helpful to the hand in question from people who don't know or have never played with villain?

I do. Sigh. There;s a tourney in notts this weekend so I may yet win another 1!

I know what isnt any use.

No smarty pants hes obvioulsy a succesful buissnessman as welll i would like to think! x

I was actually trying to give toby a compliment by saying even though calling station he can make reads on his profiling of an opponenet an make a really tough fold alot of us could never do an this is a good weapon to have an maybe this is one of the reasons his game has improved so much over last few years that his bankroll has enabled him to play with better class players with obviuolsy the rich fish as well where the better players will feed on? Would this be clearer for all to understand or am i just being a donut! p.s dont forget im not really god at typing an writing so my points always seem to get misunderstood due to my lack of creativity of expressing my feelings! XXx

nOW I RESPECT THAT POINT! sO TRUE

2ND TIME I HAVE AGREED BUT ITS BEEN FUN!

any1 think folding flop is nutline?

of all the hands you play toby, why did u pick a really boring one to post.  i wanna see a super bluff

It probably is if you're planning on folding the turn, because in my experience these guys NEVER check the turn in spots like this,

however from a human perspective its too hard to fold probs, also what a fkin incred spot to hit a 3...
pretty sure you could deposit that £5k into ur account the following morning.

Thread is clearly a level. Lolz Greekstein at insta "good fold Toby" post.

In all seriousness would be interesting if a random had put up this post to gauge the response. Then again I suppose they wouldn't have put the level of detail in that Toby has

Lads - stop the flaming, please.

(Posts deleted, again).

norrrrrrrrrrrr

Unfortunately, yes.

Why can't people debate and argue properly?  It's not a school playground where name-calling is the best we can expect.  Criticise a person's argument, his opinion, what he says - but calling names?  Hardly constructive and relegates any useful points the person may make as invalid.

Fun to watch tho. I'd hate to be a mod

silly billy ......  ;marks;

opted out init

Wow!!!!

It's finally happened!!!

Dan has posted something worth reading on PHA!!!!!

Wow toby is a nit.

:D

[ x ] i have a set

[ ] i'm folding

If it's a cooler then fine, reload.

[  ] am crushing, beating, have good equity vs opponents value range

huh?

Reread OP's description of villian.

"History shows he is raising QQ+ without AK" - So we can discount KK here. AK is possible.

"When in a hand he bets large proportions of the pot most of the time and is quite obv to me when strong / not folding made hands. - And this adds up to what's being done here.

So what could villian have? I read he could have any of the following here: AK/KT+/K8s+/88.

We lose to 88 and beat the rest. Can't see how this is ever a fold.

We are ahead of the bulk of his pre-flop limping range that connects, but what hands from that range c/raise flop and bet £900 on the turn?
Seems like 88 every day to me - and if there are never any bluffs in his range and no draws. Does he take this line with KQ? If you're right charles and he has K8/K9+ in his range then its bad to fold, but if you counter the number of times he limps K8s as opposed to folding to the amount of times he limps KK without raising, then i dont think it makes any difference to our equity that he would probably raise KK pre.

But if we take KK out of the equaiotn then his range for value here is K8/88 and when you consider how is will 100% limp 88 but sometimes fold K8 pre its a fold imo

We heard a lot in op about how hero sees villain but pretty much nothing about how villain sees hero. You can't really make assumptions about what villain's value range is without that info. Well you can if you're saying this guy is now a rich twat businessman, who never bluffs, is never interested in his opponents, never does anything but bet the nuts regardless of who he's playing, can't play poker for shit, tassles on his slip-ons, clueless donkey type of guy. And this complete walking disaster of a player is described in op as a "small winner" in this high stakes game. Sounds like a damn tough game.

This is kinda gd point. From what i know of toby, id assume it would make this player a lot less likely to barrel thin for value.

You;d be very suprised how these super nitty guys can win in these games, because there are enough terrible players round these guys play incredibly tight and every night they make 1/2 hands and get paaiiiiiid huge. they obv do 4/5 of it back in limp folding and paying blinds, but still manage to make a small profit,

I find they dont really affect the game at all, cept when you 4bet and they cold 5 behind. that sucks

amen