Title: ICM sucks Post by: MC on August 04, 2010, 12:08:58 PM Two sucky spots from yesterday, both on 180-man final tables (more chips in hand #2 as it's a rebuy 180-man)
Hand #1: No read except the guy is a random. He got a huge stack after sb shoved into his AK in the bb recently. Hand #2: Another random, seemingly competent except for calling a raise from big blind with JQ vs me when he should have folded/3bjammed. Open shoved K6os for 20 big blinds to eliminate 4th place. Has shoved every time it's exploitable, so his range is very possibly ATC. The short-stack was the nittiest nit from Nittsville, playing something like 6/3 and seemed oblivious to blinding away throughout final table PokerStars Game #47676872305: Tournament #297947708, $11+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (2000/4000) - 2010/08/04 1:23:29 WET [2010/08/03 20:23:29 ET] Table '297947708 19' 9-max Seat #4 is the button Seat 2: NoOl3Ru (45586 in chips) Seat 4: Gruaiggorm (13228 in chips) Seat 5: Ricardo_Rico (11497 in chips) Seat 6: ChKo (49914 in chips) Seat 8: superkuglen (99359 in chips) Seat 9: epitomised (50416 in chips) NoOl3Ru: posts the ante 400 Gruaiggorm: posts the ante 400 Ricardo_Rico: posts the ante 400 ChKo: posts the ante 400 superkuglen: posts the ante 400 epitomised: posts the ante 400 Ricardo_Rico: posts small blind 2000 ChKo: posts big blind 4000 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to epitomised [Kd Aspades] superkuglen: raises 94959 to 98959 and is all-in epitomised: PokerStars Game #47678473856: Tournament #297950620, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (5000/10000) - 2010/08/04 2:09:13 WET [2010/08/03 21:09:13 ET] Table '297950620 18' 9-max Seat #9 is the button Seat 6: epitomised (227507 in chips) Seat 8: best56489 (53936 in chips) Seat 9: elfky (555057 in chips) epitomised: posts the ante 1000 best56489: posts the ante 1000 elfky: posts the ante 1000 epitomised: posts small blind 5000 best56489: posts big blind 10000 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to epitomised [Js Jd] elfky: raises 544057 to 554057 and is all-in epitomised: Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: GreekStein on August 04, 2010, 12:12:52 PM I guess I don't mind too much folding the first.
I'm not passing the second one. Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: StuartHopkin on August 04, 2010, 12:17:44 PM No doubt ICM wise im wrong, but I dont think Im passing either. Im too busy dancing.
Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: Cf on August 04, 2010, 12:20:25 PM Not passing either I don't think. Hand #1 we're still a few places off the big money so this seems like a nice spot to go for the win. Second hand we're just too far ahead of his range and he has a good chip advantage so use this spot to take CL.
Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: TheRaise on August 04, 2010, 12:30:20 PM Both calls for me. Play to win on the final table.
Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: the rage on August 04, 2010, 12:41:05 PM I would call in hand 1 and fold in hand 2. In the second hand you will almost certainlty move up to 2nd if you stay out of the big stacks way. Also, he's probably aware of the image that he's created so i wouldn't be too suprised to see him shoving with a big hand this time. AK, QQ maybe. You still have enough chips to take the big stack on after the shorty is out of the way.
Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: Longy on August 04, 2010, 01:26:36 PM I am calling both, I would imagine sngwiz disagrees with me given reasonable ranges. Then again I am happy to take slight -EV spotS according to wiz as it is just too fking tight on finals imo.
Reasoning wiz fails massively on chip utility spots as if we win hand 1, we got so many great +ev spots battering the table round with our big stack it is worth taking the -ev spot. In certain spots we got exploited to fk by the chip leader if we pass and have a tonnes of -ev spots down the line. Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: sovietsong on August 04, 2010, 01:43:29 PM I would pass the AK as we have seen from my previous post about the 45 man i hate AK and look to fold it in every possible spot. The JJ I call.
Interested to know some of the thought processes as I'm trying to play more 45 man sngs these days so this kind of discussion is super. [ ] I love reading about PLO cash hands Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: EvilPie on August 04, 2010, 03:46:19 PM Don't care what ICM says they're both calls for me.
The problem with doing everything strictly by ICM is that it becomes exploitable. If someone knows that your calling range is QQ+ then they can shove on you every single hand. At some point you have to adjust and take a non ICM correct decision anyway so you might as well do it now while you've got a good hand. Actually I've just looked on OPR and see that the nittyest nit from nittville finished second. I'm guessing this means you lost meaning you should have folded. Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: outragous76 on August 04, 2010, 05:06:35 PM I think the first 1 is a super snap high five do a little dance. The payout jumps are still small, comparative stacks (only 1 real shorty), mean ICM has less impact, and the double thru and CL when you win your flip/hold when you have him to 30% is >>>> for ICM impact than thoughts of laddering.
Hand 2. From and ICM point of view this is probs closer to a fold (not done the maths, just gut feel), but im still calling 100% of the time due to meta game factors if CL shover is a reg Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: MC on August 04, 2010, 05:15:15 PM Ok, cool. I didn't see a way around calling both of them either.
FML PokerStars Game #47676872305: Tournament #297947708, $11+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (2000/4000) - 2010/08/04 1:23:29 WET [2010/08/03 20:23:29 ET] Table '297947708 19' 9-max Seat #4 is the button Seat 2: NoOl3Ru (45586 in chips) Seat 4: Gruaiggorm (13228 in chips) Seat 5: Ricardo_Rico (11497 in chips) Seat 6: ChKo (49914 in chips) Seat 8: superkuglen (99359 in chips) Seat 9: epitomised (50416 in chips) NoOl3Ru: posts the ante 400 Gruaiggorm: posts the ante 400 Ricardo_Rico: posts the ante 400 ChKo: posts the ante 400 superkuglen: posts the ante 400 epitomised: posts the ante 400 Ricardo_Rico: posts small blind 2000 ChKo: posts big blind 4000 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to epitomised [Kd Aspades] superkuglen: raises 94959 to 98959 and is all-in epitomised: calls 50016 and is all-in NoOl3Ru: folds Gruaiggorm: calls 12828 and is all-in Ricardo_Rico: folds ChKo: folds Uncalled bet (48943) returned to superkuglen *** FLOP *** [2h 3c 4c] *** TURN *** [2h 3c 4c] [2s] *** RIVER *** [2h 3c 4c 2s] [6s] *** SHOW DOWN *** superkuglen: shows [5d 5c] (a straight, Deuce to Six) epitomised: shows [Kd As] (a pair of Deuces) superkuglen collected 74376 from side pot Gruaiggorm: shows [Ac Ks] (a pair of Deuces) superkuglen collected 46884 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 121260 Main pot 46884. Side pot 74376. | Rake 0 Board [2h 3c 4c 2s 6s] Seat 2: NoOl3Ru folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: Gruaiggorm (button) showed [Ac Ks] and lost with a pair of Deuces Seat 5: Ricardo_Rico (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 6: ChKo (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 8: superkuglen showed [5d 5c] and won (121260) with a straight, Deuce to Six Seat 9: epitomised showed [Kd Aspades] and lost with a pair of Deuces PokerStars Game #47678473856: Tournament #297950620, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (5000/10000) - 2010/08/04 2:09:13 WET [2010/08/03 21:09:13 ET] Table '297950620 18' 9-max Seat #9 is the button Seat 6: epitomised (227507 in chips) Seat 8: best56489 (53936 in chips) Seat 9: elfky (555057 in chips) epitomised: posts the ante 1000 best56489: posts the ante 1000 elfky: posts the ante 1000 epitomised: posts small blind 5000 best56489: posts big blind 10000 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to epitomised [Js Jd] elfky: raises 544057 to 554057 and is all-in epitomised: calls 221507 and is all-in best56489: folds Uncalled bet (327550) returned to elfky *** FLOP *** [6c 8s Qs] *** TURN *** [6c 8s Qs] [Ks] *** RIVER *** [6c 8s Qs Ks] [Tc] *** SHOW DOWN *** epitomised: shows [Js Jd] (a pair of Jacks) elfky: shows [Qh 6d] (two pair, Queens and Sixes) elfky collected 466014 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 466014 | Rake 0 Board [6c 8s Qs Ks Tc] Seat 6: epitomised (small blind) showed [Js Jd] and lost with a pair of Jacks Seat 8: best56489 (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 9: elfky (button) showed [Qh 6d] and won (466014) with two pair, Queens and Sixes Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: Cf on August 04, 2010, 07:02:17 PM £1
Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: MC on August 04, 2010, 11:59:55 PM £1 Bit unfair, you realise how many of these I play a day? Legitimate post, although everyone agrees call these hands have to be towards the bottom of our calling range if not the very bottom... Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: Cf on August 05, 2010, 12:14:32 PM £1 Bit unfair, you realise how many of these I play a day? Legitimate post, although everyone agrees call these hands have to be towards the bottom of our calling range if not the very bottom... lol soz, was prob a bit harsh :) Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: MC on August 05, 2010, 02:53:46 PM £1 Bit unfair, you realise how many of these I play a day? Legitimate post, although everyone agrees call these hands have to be towards the bottom of our calling range if not the very bottom... lol soz, was prob a bit harsh :) Actually. thinking about it, I did post the hand histories and said FML so it's probs fair enough! Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: Cf on August 05, 2010, 04:00:29 PM £1 Bit unfair, you realise how many of these I play a day? Legitimate post, although everyone agrees call these hands have to be towards the bottom of our calling range if not the very bottom... lol soz, was prob a bit harsh :) Actually. thinking about it, I did post the hand histories and said FML so it's probs fair enough! Will you two please stop fighting? This is supposed to be a friendly forum. Aye. I feel guilty. I don't think MC is gonna post another thread on PHA now in fear of more ridicule :( Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: MC on August 06, 2010, 01:08:45 AM lol :)
Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: DMorgan on August 06, 2010, 02:43:34 AM Not sure why these are on PHA when you can get the correct answers from SNGWiz or similar but at a quick glance both look like pretty clear calls.
Quote The problem with doing everything strictly by ICM is that it becomes exploitable. If someone knows that your calling range is QQ+ then they can shove on you every single hand. Playing perfect ICM strategy isn't exploitable. You are only ever making +EV calls. How can a strategy that says call when your EV is >0 and fold when it isn't ever be exploitable? The incorrect application of ICM (assigning your opponents incorrect ranges) is exploitable but so is the incorrect application of any poker theory. Getting good at ICM includes being able to adjust to when peoples ranges change so obviously if the guy in shoving any 2 there are seldom times when calling with QQ+ is the correct application of ICM. Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: Rupert on August 06, 2010, 06:43:06 AM he showed up with Q6 and you're wondering if it's close! hope you made a note! i'd call both fwiw you play good
Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: AlexMartin on August 06, 2010, 08:50:28 AM I am calling both, I would imagine sngwiz disagrees with me given reasonable ranges. Then again I am happy to take slight -EV spotS according to wiz as it is just too fking tight on finals imo. Reasoning wiz fails massively on chip utility spots as if we win hand 1, we got so many great +ev spots battering the table round with our big stack it is worth taking the -ev spot. In certain spots we got exploited to fk by the chip leader if we pass and have a tonnes of -ev spots down the line. word Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: action man on August 08, 2010, 05:00:05 AM fk me james must be so boring playing 100's of these a week and wondering if its icm correct to call in these spots.
Title: Re: ICM sucks Post by: dakky on August 16, 2010, 02:27:05 AM I didn't see results before I was going to write this:
hand 1 call, win a (almost certain) flip, and get stack to win comp 2: man you've got to snap that off so fast. You are absolutely massive against his range which will include any ace, 2 picutres, pairs etc etc Passing this spot to try to ladder to 2nd will cost you so many shots at 1st place |