blonde poker forum

Sorry this is really long, but need to explain everything.
 
Seat 1,2,3 irrelevant
Seat 5 VTight Reg £900
Seat 6 Massive regfish ~£2500
Seat 7 Mitch £1700
Seat 8 Hero is playing ~£1800

Game was playing pretty small, with Mitch and I playing most of the pots, then Regfish turned up and its getting much more heated.

Hero is UTG with  Qs Qc opens to £15, VTight Reg 3bets BTN £45, Regfish and Mitch cold call from the blinds. Hero 4bets to £175 (4bet folding vs the tight 3bettor fwiw), 3bettor folds, fish in the blinds cold call again. lol live poker.

Pot: £570
 Jc Jd 8h checks round
 4s checks round
 3c Regfish bets £300, Mitch makes it £670, Hero?

Given the way I've decided to play this postflop, I've put myself in this tought spot. Mitch and Regfish have played a lot with each other, and something Mitch told me about him and a couple of other reads led me to be 90% confident that Mitch had a complete airball here. Something like  5s 7s ;)

So in a sense I've just got to work out what Regfish has. I thought both were plausible but much more likely he was betting TT or 99 or 89ss or something because he thought they were good. Mitch reckons that he always checks these hands in those spots where the pot is massive and tries to get to showdown.

But there are very few better hands that Regfish can be betting, I would've thought he'd bet the turn with a J and maybe 44 or 88 (I don't think he peels pre with 44 or 33 though maybe). So it's 88 or a J that he's decided to play really slow.

WWYD? I know the standard line would've been to bet the earlier streets but I don't want to dwell too much on that. I decided to make my hand look like AK  as Mitch knows my range pre has to be very strong given i've 4bet the tightest player on the table. I decided to go for a big street of value on the river and make my hand look as weak as possible and get regfish to payme off, or Mitch to spas.

I don't think it makes a difference to the hand but fwiw I was 100% staked for this game, Mitch knew this, Regfish didn't.

im thinking though, can mitch ever actually have an airball here? seems like thin value vs the fish, or a sick merge with like TT where he gets you to fold QQ+ but the fish calls with A8

sick raise if thats wat you did Mitch :p

^^^ that being said I like your line post flop and would prolly call now

nh

Don't forget, Mitch plays bad sometimes :p

U bet turn?

yh a lot of the time, but really happy to just catch some spazzy bluffs like this

The pot isn't closed yet tho which I don't like

yh, fish jamming is terrible but I think he's never doing it without a boat and he has a boat so infrequently

Who's the spazzy reg fish? Vargas?

Where is this 2/5 game?

LOL, quality.

Really can't see Mitch min raise bluffing the fish if he says that he thinks that fish checks 99/TT here

You should give ur impression on the fish and how u had expected him to play hands since this will have a massive impact on how Mitch played his hand.

all in all looks like an easy fold to me. the chance of fish guy not having it PLUS mitch being on siome sik min bluff or value is so much less than u being good.
yer mitches lines makes no sense, even less with his read on the fish but still...

fwiw i think you should bet this turn at least. It seems like a case of pot controlling so much causing more tough situation than it avoids as it is turning your hand face up. My guess is Mitch expects u to pot control a big pair here a lot of the time and this is pretty key to postflop decisons (hint- mitch is a massive station in big pots :-P)

A guy called Florian. I think he is Italian - late 20s, early 30s probs.

he admitted it was a bad bluff. he had the  5s 7s

did u call?

I don't quite understand the 4b + pot control on turn?

yeh I called. was good vs Mitch. Florian had the AJo

Well it was to try and get a chunky street of river value, either from florian who would overvalue TT or 99 or Mitch who would either spas out with air, or hero me cos my hand is so underrepped.

How come you didn't bet the turn? edit: sorry just seen above post

I think check/bet/bet is a good line on this board texture.

I'd almost never play it this way, but id do a little fold i think as i have no idea whats going on.

You shouldnt have said what i had in the OP as giving people information about things during the hand, that you didnt have at time, makes an impact on how people respond.

A couple of things; some stuff me and Alex went through last night.

Firstly, he is 100% is peeling all pairs. (dunno why u put he isnt!?!)

Ive played with him loads recently and im pretty confident i know exactly how he plays almost all situations, maily because he sits next to me, shows me all his cards and talks through each hand with me that he plays) TY :)

He is pretty terrible at value betting anything but the nuts, especially in big pots that he isnt the original raiser in. All hands he has here that are not JX and pairs that have turned into houses, he check calls, i would say 90% of the time. The only things that arent those hands which he could possibly be betting are AA and KK, but hes deffo raising these again pre.

As hes only betting nuts or air, i had a tilty spewy attempt at getting it though, hoping to rep a house vs u and just get him to lay down his bluff.

As soon as u started tanking i regretted telling you the read on him about 20 mins earlier.

Basically, he is never laying down what he would consider a 'big hand'. Eg if he has a 9 on a KK992 board he will call the lot off, same with a bare 8 on a 4567X board, so i would always shove 89 here for eg. Therefore when Alex sees me only 2.5x'ing his bet, he can be sure i dont have the house.

Was fair to say i was regretting giving him the info.

Anyway, i think your in a tough spot with your hand. I would bet the turn, but mainly because your guessing when u get a lot of action on the river, but to be fair, if my read was right, and you have magically managed to induced a bet and squeeze on the river, your a fucking hero and have made an extra £1k lolz.

Ya I said bet turn earlier on itt. Makes it a lot easier to play.

Maybe I'm being too much of an omaha head but the pot not being closed has to be a big factor here.

this doesn't matter if the bluff frequencies are tiny.

but as we have no idea what's going on i'd just fold river.

yeh thanks for that nugget :) i knew you didnt have a house or AJ I think even you fold most Jxs  here pre. So I played the hand this way to get this sort of response. Well I wanted either you to spas out, OR florian to pay me off/vbet worse. Didn't want both lol. Unfortunately Mitch hadn't told me that florian never vbets thin in big pots and always wants to get to showdown. I just assumed he'd vbet TT or 99 or A8 here, and if he is, overcalling with QQ makes sense.


I didnt, I said you might have that sort of hand (they didnt know at the time thats what you actually hand). Fwiw everyone responded anyway saying you're almost never gonna have an airball in that spot anyway....lol

Free Advertising FTW! (note to self: no bluffing for 6 months, value town tickets to be given out only)


Yeh, AJ and similar is a fold when James 3bets the button because its crushed by the man from Nittington Town, Nitville

Im such a mug for giving you loads of info on all the players in the 2/5 games. Im gonna level the fuck outta myself every time we play together now.

BUT IT WILL BE SO MUCH FUN!

thats what mates are for mitch! and yeh will be a sick levelling match! just give me loads of sevensssssssss!!!


yeh agreed 57ss>AJ vs his range.  didnt think you'd peel ne Jx in fact. except TJhearts :)

I think chking back the turn is absolutely fine, I know we got into a messy spot on the river but realistically this is a really extreme river action,

you're hand isnt THAT face up, starting to look more and more like AK as the streets go there isnt a huge amount to get THAT much value with mitch arkwardly hanging about, if its HU its an obv 2barrel min. perhaps we should be betting the turn for value but three way you're gonna struggle to get two decent streets of value so chk back at bet or call river ftw

as for the river I really dont see how its an easy fold WITHOUT the information that the fish is totally polarised (plus surely we'd expect him to bet a J on the turn a decent amount) when he vbets, given your read that mitch has air, when he can only really rep a couple of houses

In fact I think its really reallyhard to fold with given info and I certainly wouldn't have done. Im gonna go as far as to say that folding is bad.
ul

agree, agree, and agree. happy times. at least one person is on my side then.

I really think you should bet the turn. By checking you're missing insane value from weaker 2 pair hands imo. Probs peeling a raise from Mitch, folding vs regfish.

As played I don't see how its not a snapfold. With Mitchs read on regfish the guy just never has worse and therefore Mitch should never have worse. Mitch said that it was a tilty/spewy attempt to get it through so it is what it is, bit of a freak situation but I don't think this should make you want to call in future

yh but we didnt have that read at the time, we assumed he'd be spackering about with all kinds of stuff, obv after we've read mitchs post its a fold

I just think that its mighty optimistic to see both of them bluffing here. At the time that the hand played out we already knew that Mitch thought that regfish was bad so why would he ever minraise bluff the end? I've played a bit with this guy too, he always sits deep and he isn't scared money. I just don't see him ever bet/folding the river to Mitchs sizing and we can safely assume that Mitch knows this

If Mitch knows this why is Mitch bluffing?

As he said, tilty/spewy attempt to get it through therefore air makes up a tiny %age of his range here

If Alex knew Mitch was tilting would u still fold?

As said before, I didn't know Florian wouldnt vbet TT, 99 etc in this spot. I also didn't think he was likely to be bluffing but possibly could be. I thought his range was mostly weaker two pair hands, sometimes trips or houses, and a few bluffs too. I wasn't calling hoping that they were both bluffing.

A few things that I don't want to write on here led me to believe Mitch was bluffing also. I was really confident he was. Even though its a shit spot to bluff I knew he was bluffing even so. This isn't online, with live poker, it's not all about range, bluffing frequencies etc, there are other factors that make up your decisions, reads, tells, gameflow etc. It's interesting that Dave is one of the only people to agree with me and he's played a gizillion hours live whereas the people disagreeing are way more online guys.

I play 30=40hours a month of live cash myself, dismissing people's POV because you suspect there online players and the games play differently isn't always the case. If you saw him twitch or scratch his arse in a particular manner which made you think he was bluffing cool no need to post the hand, but posting information about gameflow/reads etc etc Post hoc is kind of fruitless.

I dunno back in my day the online players used to give the live pro's stick :P

yeh im not posting the hand asking whether or not Mitch could be bluffing, and then saying actually you're all wrong, I knew he was ha. That is obv not what im doing. The crux of the matter was, given that I was 90% sure Mitch was bluffing, is coldcalling the river ok here?

lol onlinepokeraments hehe :) you guys are still the best. id like to think im a sick mergeeeeeee!

Ok im gonna change my analysis of my bet to 'very optimistic'.

It wasnt like i was on steaming monkey tilt. Just a bad read by me. (and you  :P)

bumppppppppp!

pretty good thread