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Title: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: MC on February 18, 2011, 06:15:50 PM Thought the discussion in the last thread I posted was really good/useful so thought I might post up a little more often.
18-man final table, 4 paid. You have to give people ranges that I think are unrealistically tight for you to get SNG Wiz to say you can shove in this spot. However, I don't see how it's possible for us not to shove (well I actually make it 2400). We absolutely have to shove here right? I want to puke when I see that I folded here. Folding here means we are committed to calling in the big blind if we get jammed on. So is there not an argument for going with any above average hand here? Folding here to get dealt T3os in the next hand doesn't seem very appealing. What should we do with T7s, J4s, Q7os, A2os for example? Why does SNG Wiz mess with my head like this! (http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5687/tournament3659985630848.png) PokerStars Game #57857617707: Tournament #365998563, $25+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (400/800) - 2011/02/18 8:48:48 WET [2011/02/18 3:48:48 ET] Table '365998563 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button Seat 1: epitomised (2735 in chips) Seat 3: NotFor_long1 (9150 in chips) Seat 5: giRL90ihqdaa (6385 in chips) Seat 6: bdubs3737 (2025 in chips) Seat 7: Tigra6691 (3195 in chips) Seat 8: opdeflop (3510 in chips) epitomised: posts the ante 50 NotFor_long1: posts the ante 50 giRL90ihqdaa: posts the ante 50 bdubs3737: posts the ante 50 Tigra6691: posts the ante 50 opdeflop: posts the ante 50 Tigra6691: posts small blind 400 opdeflop: posts big blind 800 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to epitomised [8c Jc] epitomised: folds NotFor_long1: folds giRL90ihqdaa: raises 5535 to 6335 and is all-in bdubs3737: folds Tigra6691: folds opdeflop: folds Uncalled bet (5535) returned to giRL90ihqdaa giRL90ihqdaa collected 2300 from pot giRL90ihqdaa: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 2300 | Rake 0 Seat 1: epitomised folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: NotFor_long1 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: giRL90ihqdaa collected (2300) Seat 6: bdubs3737 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: Tigra6691 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 8: opdeflop (big blind) folded before Flop Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: boldie on February 18, 2011, 07:25:24 PM I shove here...but then again I'm tez
Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: Longy on February 18, 2011, 08:00:17 PM Yeah i like getting this in, make it 2400 ;)
Sngwiz is terrible at these spots as it doesn't take into account you are about to have your stack decimated by the blinds. You basically have 2 choices to ship this or call the next hand, j8s with some (not a lot) of FE is deffo better than waiting imo. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: baltic_blonde on February 18, 2011, 08:02:33 PM Easy push. You only have just over 3bb and you want to put pressure on another small stack on the table (bb) whilst you can, and J8 suited plays well against small pocket pairs or overcards.
Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: MC on February 18, 2011, 08:17:26 PM Yeah i like getting this in, make it 2400 ;) Sngwiz is terrible at these spots as it doesn't take into account you are about to have your stack decimated by the blinds. You basically have 2 choices to ship this or call the next hand, j8s with some (not a lot) of FE is deffo better than waiting imo. Recently I've just been trying to play too much like SNG Wiz, and it's rubbed off on me so much that I fold here when I would never have done before. Have been playing more of my own game the last few days and I feel like it's going so much better because of it. I always thought break-even regs were stupid because they didn't bother to review their hands in SNGWiz, maybe it's the complete opposite! Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: outragous76 on February 18, 2011, 08:21:58 PM This is super close but I fold here!
Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: boldie on February 18, 2011, 08:33:07 PM This is super close but I fold here! So would you call the next hand that you're in the blinds? And what would your range for calling the next hand be? Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: outragous76 on February 18, 2011, 09:15:31 PM I think the next hand is super interesting, cause good regs know you are calling. However if we are lucky enough to fold to sb, he could walk us due to the other Shorties.
My calling range is prob 22+ A2+ k7+ q8+ An assortmment of suited connectors 67+ I guess that's like top 65%? Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: Longy on February 18, 2011, 09:39:32 PM I think the chances of us getting a walk next hand, are very small indeed. Couple of reasonable regs at this table.
Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: SuuPRlim on February 18, 2011, 09:46:02 PM Ok, Im so far under qualified to comment on your SNG stuff, but I'm enjoying reading them :)
How does the stack sizes of the BTN/SB/BB affect the dynamic here? Does the BB have to fold ridic tight here, because the BTN and SB have to go through the blinds before him? Does the BTN have to super widen up in these spots because you should be shoving wide and he can not sustain another round through the blinds? And the guy with 6k, he has to fold out virtually all stuff for ICM yes? If these 1 and 3 of these things are all correct, should this widen your range to nearly any two here? If btn is calling off wide, how much should this tighten your range? Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: DMorgan on February 18, 2011, 09:48:57 PM Shoving here all day, folding would be tez imo
Beautiful situation to shove here because big stack can't call light with 4 people behind and BTN/blinds can't call light due to stack size Suprised to see bdubs there, he was grinding $60 9mans same as me 18 months ago, is he a reg in 18 mans now? Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: outragous76 on February 18, 2011, 09:59:06 PM I actually don't think I fold any K or Q
Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: Longy on February 18, 2011, 10:18:14 PM Suprised to see bdubs there, he was grinding $60 9mans same as me 18 months ago, is he a reg in 18 mans now? I saw bdubs in a 45man think it was a 27/38, he any good? I actually don't think I fold any K or Q j8s better shoving hand than k2, k3, q4 etc. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: outragous76 on February 18, 2011, 10:45:42 PM Suprised to see bdubs there, he was grinding $60 9mans same as me 18 months ago, is he a reg in 18 mans now? I saw bdubs in a 45man think it was a 27/38, he any good? I actually don't think I fold any K or Q j8s better shoving hand than k2, k3, q4 etc.I still mean next hand obv Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: baltic_blonde on February 18, 2011, 10:49:03 PM Shoving here all day, folding would be tez imo Beautiful situation to shove here because big stack can't call light with 4 people behind and BTN/blinds can't call light due to stack size Totally agree, and even if you are called, it's likely to be a race,which you should be happy to take considering your stack size. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: Sack it off on February 18, 2011, 10:52:16 PM yeah I shove.
difficult to dominate as they fold KJ QJ JT J9 A8 K8 Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: Longy on February 18, 2011, 11:13:17 PM yeah I shove. difficult to dominate as they fold KJ QJ JT J9 A8 K8 No way I am folding kj or a8 against James if I am any player at this table. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: MC on February 18, 2011, 11:36:42 PM bdubs def not a reg at the times I play.
KJ or A8 folding is very very optimistic, especially from the blinds, but I'mstill glad I've had it reaffirmed that this is a fist-pump jam. What kind of range should we be jamming here do we think? Most suited hands? Most 3 gappers? Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: baltic_blonde on February 18, 2011, 11:48:05 PM bdubs def not a reg at the times I play. KJ or A8 folding is very very optimistic, especially from the blinds, but I'mstill glad I've had it reaffirmed that this is a fist-pump jam. What kind of range should we be jamming here do we think? Most suited hands? Most 3 gappers? I would jam here with any pair, any A+, K8s/K10o+, Q9s/Q10o+, J9s/J10o+, 108s/109o+, 89s. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: baltic_blonde on February 18, 2011, 11:57:22 PM bdubs def not a reg at the times I play. KJ or A8 folding is very very optimistic, especially from the blinds, but I'mstill glad I've had it reaffirmed that this is a fist-pump jam. What kind of range should we be jamming here do we think? Most suited hands? Most 3 gappers? I would jam here with any pair, any A+, K8s/K10o+, Q9s/Q10o+, J9s/J10o+, 108s/109o+, 89s. And yes, I would be pushing here UTG with most suited 2/3 gappers too. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: Moskvich on February 19, 2011, 12:31:57 AM Yeah i like getting this in, make it 2400 ;) Sngwiz is terrible at these spots as it doesn't take into account you are about to have your stack decimated by the blinds. You basically have 2 choices to ship this or call the next hand, j8s with some (not a lot) of FE is deffo better than waiting imo. Recently I've just been trying to play too much like SNG Wiz, and it's rubbed off on me so much that I fold here when I would never have done before. Have been playing more of my own game the last few days and I feel like it's going so much better because of it. I always thought break-even regs were stupid because they didn't bother to review their hands in SNGWiz, maybe it's the complete opposite! I think you quite often see people who always play a Wiz-based game and don't adapt, and I'd suspect a lot of them are break-even as a result. You definitely do better by using your judgment in spots like this, as your gut feeling, when you've played as many games as you have, will be pretty accurate. Those that always abide by Wiz presumably never accumulate that experience and good judgment of unWizzable spots as they don't accept their unWizzability. Hope you don't mind my piggybacking on your thread by the way, but sort of on the same subject I just had this semi-unWizzable J8 hand on the bubble of a short-handed SNG: 200/400 Big stack (5792) Hero (802) Other shorty (906) Other shorty post SB 200 Big stack post BB 400 Hero Jd 8c Hero Raise to 800 Other shorty All-in 906 Big stack Call 906 Hero Fold Flop 2c, 9d, Kh Turn 2c, 9d, Kh, 2d River 2c, 9d, Kh, 2d, 3d Showdown: Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 2612 Big stack [Ad, Kd] Ace high flush Win: 2612 Hero Fold win: 0 Other shorty [Qh, Ah] Pair of deuces Win: 0 I mean, I was getting 1200 to 1 on the call, but when you're beat you're beat, right? Serious question though, nice as this turned out, should I just fold this and take a random hand in the big blind against the big stack - cos the second stack will have to fold on the button..? Or can I even fold this hand and potentially my big blind as well, given that the other shorty is getting so short too? Here with the J8 it's pretty likely to be 3-way, unless the second stack makes the mistake of shoving instead of calling. And even when he does, should I just splash out and call the extra 2 anyway..? Though then again I don't know, maybe the small blind folds here a lot..? I feel like there's probably a pretty basic answer to this and I'm just being a bit stupid here, but I find that these weird two big blinds spots can be a bit of a struggle to think through, particularly when my brain is as tilt-addled as it is today. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: outragous76 on February 19, 2011, 01:11:23 AM yeah I shove. difficult to dominate as they fold KJ QJ JT J9 A8 K8 Villain folds 1 of those hands, maybe 2 depending upon which villain Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: DMorgan on February 19, 2011, 01:35:35 AM I saw bdubs in a 45man think it was a 27/38, he any good? If its the same guy (pretty sure it is) then he was a high stakes MTT reg that also played 9mans, he didn't play a lot but was a marginal winner with the common MTT leaks in 9mans. Played too many hands and ended up raise folded too many hands with 13-18bbs than is profitable in a 9man Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: outragous76 on February 19, 2011, 01:37:12 AM And the big stacks aren't folding here as the players behind have grains different. So anything they call with they still call. And 2nd big stack can't exploit 1st big stack
It's obv marginal and you guys are prob right but I wouldn't hate myself for folding! Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: MC on February 19, 2011, 08:05:04 AM Moskvich - I'm don't know the correct answer, but I think you played it the best way
Perhaps if we think the small blind doesn't understand the ICM implications and is likely to shove his sb we can fold but that's fairly unlikely as good players understand ICM and bad players dearly want to cash Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: Simon Galloway on February 19, 2011, 08:32:22 AM James - I think it's one of those situations that Wiz identifies as a negative thing to do - the point is it is the least negative thing to do of the options available to you, and therefore the best thing you can do.
What happened in the hand before? The way the chips are distributed, I would be looking to shove on one of the shorter stacks. Which means the hand before, if I elect to fold that, I am already committing to shoving ATC on the next one (your J8s as it happens.) And yes, I also prefer the "non-AI~all in" to 2400. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: MC on February 19, 2011, 11:48:34 AM James - I think it's one of those situations that Wiz identifies as a negative thing to do - the point is it is the least negative thing to do of the options available to you, and therefore the best thing you can do. What happened in the hand before? The way the chips are distributed, I would be looking to shove on one of the shorter stacks. Which means the hand before, if I elect to fold that, I am already committing to shoving ATC on the next one (your J8s as it happens.) And yes, I also prefer the "non-AI~all in" to 2400. Yeah this makes sense. I put that I would make it 2400 in OP :) Looks like I open folded 48os on the previous hand, giRL90ihqdaa shoved and others folded. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: mondatoo on February 19, 2011, 02:34:12 PM I don't really see the point of the min raise instead of just shoving here as nobody's going to not look at your stack on the bubble on a ft. I agree it has merit in most spots but it's just a waste of time while multi tabling in this instance, imo.
Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: MC on February 19, 2011, 07:41:04 PM I don't really see the point of the min raise instead of just shoving here as nobody's going to not look at your stack on the bubble on a ft. I agree it has merit in most spots but it's just a waste of time while multi tabling in this instance, imo. I think you're misguided here. There is no downside to making it 2400 instead of moving all-in. If it causes someone to fold who would have called had you moved all in even 1% of the time, then surely it is worth it. How much more difficult is it to make this raise as opposed to shoving? Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: titaniumbean on February 19, 2011, 08:23:44 PM I like your chips and card mods!!
Would deffo put it in here, esp with green cards. Agree with the raise to x amount that isn't all in as any % of misclicks or mistakes is essentially good for us. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: MC on February 19, 2011, 08:25:13 PM Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: DMorgan on February 19, 2011, 10:31:34 PM I don't really see the point of the min raise instead of just shoving here as nobody's going to not look at your stack on the bubble on a ft. I agree it has merit in most spots but it's just a waste of time while multi tabling in this instance, imo. The main reason for doing this is that if we get a preflop situation whereby 3 people are all in after you then you can fold Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: Moskvich on February 20, 2011, 04:01:14 AM I don't really see the point of the min raise instead of just shoving here as nobody's going to not look at your stack on the bubble on a ft. I agree it has merit in most spots but it's just a waste of time while multi tabling in this instance, imo. The main reason for doing this is that if we get a preflop situation whereby 3 people are all in after you then you can fold There is some downside to it though isn't there? In that it looks weak to anyone who knows what we're doing, so will occasionally actually encourage a call that might have been a fold had we shoved. I've only ever seen a reg do this when weak. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: MC on February 20, 2011, 07:44:31 AM I don't really see the point of the min raise instead of just shoving here as nobody's going to not look at your stack on the bubble on a ft. I agree it has merit in most spots but it's just a waste of time while multi tabling in this instance, imo. The main reason for doing this is that if we get a preflop situation whereby 3 people are all in after you then you can fold There is some downside to it though isn't there? In that it looks weak to anyone who knows what we're doing, so will occasionally actually encourage a call that might have been a fold had we shoved. I've only ever seen a reg do this when weak. Meh, I make sure I do it with all my premium hands as well to balance my range. Considering the blinds and ante's are so big compared to our stack it's not like we're dying for a call with most of them anyway. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: mondatoo on February 20, 2011, 12:17:46 PM I don't really see the point of the min raise instead of just shoving here as nobody's going to not look at your stack on the bubble on a ft. I agree it has merit in most spots but it's just a waste of time while multi tabling in this instance, imo. I think you're misguided here. There is no downside to making it 2400 instead of moving all-in. If it causes someone to fold who would have called had you moved all in even 1% of the time, then surely it is worth it. How much more difficult is it to make this raise as opposed to shoving? I very much doubt it works even 1% of the time on the bubble or even on a ft. When playing 24 tables (not sure if you still play that many) making it 2400 takes longer than clicking the all in button. Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: the sicilian on February 20, 2011, 01:00:45 PM Easy ship I'm afraid james...
Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: Longy on February 20, 2011, 01:08:41 PM It works enough (I would guess 1% is accurate) and you make sure you balance to keep regs from calling lighter. If the time it takes to make it 3x adversely effects your play on other tables, you are playing too many tables.
Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: MC on February 21, 2011, 10:57:43 AM I very much doubt it works even 1% of the time on the bubble or even on a ft. When playing 24 tables (not sure if you still play that many) making it 2400 takes longer than clicking the all in button. PokerStars Game #58028868526: Tournament #367142276, $35+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2011/02/21 10:55:13 WET [2011/02/21 5:55:13 ET] Table '367142276 2' 9-max Seat #4 is the button Seat 1: BlingDoubt (2040 in chips) Seat 2: TAUB72 (7520 in chips) Seat 3: voodduu (3440 in chips) Seat 4: alegreg3 (2690 in chips) Seat 5: daz2274 (5945 in chips) Seat 7: sup-sport777 (3875 in chips) Seat 9: epitomised (1490 in chips) BlingDoubt: posts the ante 50 TAUB72: posts the ante 50 voodduu: posts the ante 50 alegreg3: posts the ante 50 daz2274: posts the ante 50 sup-sport777: posts the ante 50 epitomised: posts the ante 50 daz2274: posts small blind 300 sup-sport777: posts big blind 600 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to epitomised [Kh Qc] epitomised: raises 600 to 1200 BlingDoubt: folds TAUB72: folds voodduu: folds alegreg3: folds daz2274: folds sup-sport777: folds Uncalled bet (600) returned to epitomised epitomised collected 1850 from pot epitomised: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 1850 | Rake 0 Seat 1: BlingDoubt folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: TAUB72 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: voodduu folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: alegreg3 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: daz2274 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 7: sup-sport777 (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 9: epitomised collected (1850) Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: MC on February 21, 2011, 11:17:17 AM I very much doubt it works even 1% of the time on the bubble or even on a ft. When playing 24 tables (not sure if you still play that many) making it 2400 takes longer than clicking the all in button. PokerStars Game #58029342465: Tournament #367145038, $55+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2011/02/21 11:15:11 WET [2011/02/21 6:15:11 ET] Table '367145038 2' 9-max Seat #4 is the button Seat 1: emily24 (4467 in chips) Seat 2: kennnny32 (5732 in chips) Seat 3: epitomised (1011 in chips) Seat 4: arbitrary1 (2063 in chips) Seat 6: NotFor_long1 (4076 in chips) Seat 8: vinacis_gg (3999 in chips) Seat 9: mr_maskin (5652 in chips) emily24: posts the ante 25 kennnny32: posts the ante 25 epitomised: posts the ante 25 arbitrary1: posts the ante 25 NotFor_long1: posts the ante 25 vinacis_gg: posts the ante 25 mr_maskin: posts the ante 25 NotFor_long1: posts small blind 200 vinacis_gg: posts big blind 400 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to epitomised [3d 3h] mr_maskin: folds emily24: folds kennnny32: folds epitomised: raises 400 to 800 arbitrary1: folds NotFor_long1: folds vinacis_gg: folds Uncalled bet (400) returned to epitomised epitomised collected 1175 from pot epitomised: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 1175 | Rake 0 Seat 1: emily24 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: kennnny32 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: epitomised collected (1175) Seat 4: arbitrary1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: NotFor_long1 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 8: vinacis_gg (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 9: mr_maskin folded before Flop (didn't bet) Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: MC on February 21, 2011, 11:29:55 AM I very much doubt it works even 1% of the time on the bubble or even on a ft. When playing 24 tables (not sure if you still play that many) making it 2400 takes longer than clicking the all in button. PokerStars Game #58029671793: Tournament #367146868, $25+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XI (600/1200) - 2011/02/21 11:27:51 WET [2011/02/21 6:27:51 ET] Table '367146868 2' 9-max Seat #8 is the button Seat 1: csinclair79 (10755 in chips) Seat 3: epitomised (2545 in chips) Seat 8: BornSurvivor (12030 in chips) Seat 9: arny333 (1670 in chips) csinclair79: posts the ante 75 epitomised: posts the ante 75 BornSurvivor: posts the ante 75 arny333: posts the ante 75 arny333: posts small blind 600 csinclair79: posts big blind 1200 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to epitomised [Th Kh] epitomised: raises 1200 to 2400 BornSurvivor: folds arny333: folds csinclair79: folds Uncalled bet (1200) returned to epitomised epitomised collected 3300 from pot epitomised: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 3300 | Rake 0 Seat 1: csinclair79 (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 3: epitomised collected (3300) Seat 8: BornSurvivor (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: arny333 (small blind) folded before Flop Title: Re: Another spot beyond SNG Wiz? Post by: mondatoo on February 21, 2011, 12:22:51 PM It is a good play, I do it also. Blatantly in all three spots they fold if you shove ;whistle;
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