Another spot beyond SNG Wiz?

[Sack it off]

yeah I shove.

difficult to dominate as they fold KJ QJ JT J9 A8 K8

[Longy]

yeah I shove.

difficult to dominate as they fold KJ QJ JT J9 A8 K8

No way I am folding kj or a8 against James if I am any player at this table.

[MC]

bdubs def not a reg at the times I play.

KJ or A8 folding is very very optimistic, especially from the blinds, but I'mstill  glad I've had it reaffirmed that this is a fist-pump jam.

What kind of range should we be jamming here do we think? Most suited hands? Most 3 gappers?

[baltic_blonde]

bdubs def not a reg at the times I play.

KJ or A8 folding is very very optimistic, especially from the blinds, but I'mstill  glad I've had it reaffirmed that this is a fist-pump jam.

What kind of range should we be jamming here do we think? Most suited hands? Most 3 gappers?

I would jam here with any pair, any A+, K8s/K10o+, Q9s/Q10o+, J9s/J10o+, 108s/109o+, 89s.

[baltic_blonde]

bdubs def not a reg at the times I play.

KJ or A8 folding is very very optimistic, especially from the blinds, but I'mstill  glad I've had it reaffirmed that this is a fist-pump jam.

What kind of range should we be jamming here do we think? Most suited hands? Most 3 gappers?

I would jam here with any pair, any A+, K8s/K10o+, Q9s/Q10o+, J9s/J10o+, 108s/109o+, 89s.

And yes, I would be pushing here UTG with most suited 2/3 gappers too.

[Moskvich]

Yeah i like getting this in, make it 2400  

Sngwiz is terrible at these spots as it doesn't take into account you are about to have your stack decimated by the blinds. You basically have 2 choices to ship this or call the next hand, j8s with some (not a lot) of FE is deffo better than waiting imo.

Recently I've just been trying to play too much like SNG Wiz, and it's rubbed off on me so much that I fold here when I would never have done before.  

Have been playing more of my own game the last few days and I feel like it's going so much better because of it.

I always thought break-even regs were stupid because they didn't bother to review their hands in SNGWiz, maybe it's the complete opposite!

I think you quite often see people who always play a Wiz-based game and don't adapt, and I'd suspect a lot of them are break-even as a result. You definitely do better by using your judgment in spots like this, as your gut feeling, when you've played as many games as you have, will be pretty accurate. Those that always abide by Wiz presumably never accumulate that experience and good judgment of unWizzable spots as they don't accept their unWizzability.

Hope you don't mind my piggybacking on your thread by the way, but sort of on the same subject I just had this semi-unWizzable J8 hand on the bubble of a short-handed SNG:

200/400

Big stack (5792)
Hero (802)
Other shorty (906)

Other shorty post SB 200
Big stack post BB 400

Hero

Hero Raise to 800
Other shorty All-in 906
Big stack Call 906
Hero Fold

Flop  , ,
Turn  , , ,
River , , , ,

Showdown: Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 2612

Big stack [, ] Ace high flush Win: 2612
Hero Fold win: 0
Other shorty [, Ah] Pair of deuces Win: 0

I mean, I was getting 1200 to 1 on the call, but when you're beat you're beat, right?

Serious question though, nice as this turned out, should I just fold this and take a random hand in the big blind against the big stack - cos the second stack will have to fold on the button..? Or can I even fold this hand and potentially my big blind as well, given that the other shorty is getting so short too?

Here with the J8 it's pretty likely to be 3-way, unless the second stack makes the mistake of shoving instead of calling. And even when he does, should I just splash out and call the extra 2 anyway..? Though then again I don't know, maybe the small blind folds here a lot..?

I feel like there's probably a pretty basic answer to this and I'm just being a bit stupid here, but I find that these weird two big blinds spots can be a bit of a struggle to think through, particularly when my brain is as tilt-addled as it is today.

[outragous76]

yeah I shove.

difficult to dominate as they fold KJ QJ JT J9 A8 K8

Villain folds 1 of those hands, maybe 2 depending upon which villain

[DMorgan]

I saw bdubs in a 45man think it was a 27/38, he any good?

If its the same guy (pretty sure it is) then he was a high stakes MTT reg that also played 9mans, he didn't play a lot but was a marginal winner with the common MTT leaks in 9mans. Played too many hands and ended up raise folded too many hands with 13-18bbs than is profitable in a 9man

[outragous76]

And the big stacks aren't folding here as the players behind have grains different. So anything they call with they still call. And 2nd big stack can't exploit 1st big stack

It's obv marginal and you guys are prob right but I wouldn't hate myself for folding!  

[MC]

Moskvich - I'm don't know the correct answer, but I think you played it the best way

Perhaps if we think the small blind doesn't understand the ICM implications and is likely to shove his sb we can fold but that's fairly unlikely as good players understand ICM and bad players dearly want to cash

[Simon Galloway]

James - I think it's one of those situations that Wiz identifies as a negative thing to do - the point is it is the least negative thing to do of the options available to you, and therefore the best thing you can do.

What happened in the hand before?  The way the chips are distributed, I would be looking to shove on one of the shorter stacks.  Which means the hand before, if I elect to fold that, I am already committing to shoving ATC on the next one (your J8s as it happens.)  And yes, I also prefer the "non-AI~all in" to 2400.

[MC]

James - I think it's one of those situations that Wiz identifies as a negative thing to do - the point is it is the least negative thing to do of the options available to you, and therefore the best thing you can do.

What happened in the hand before?  The way the chips are distributed, I would be looking to shove on one of the shorter stacks.  Which means the hand before, if I elect to fold that, I am already committing to shoving ATC on the next one (your J8s as it happens.)  And yes, I also prefer the "non-AI~all in" to 2400.

Yeah this makes sense. I put that I would make it 2400 in OP

Looks like I open folded 48os on the previous hand, giRL90ihqdaa shoved and others folded.

[mondatoo]

I don't really see the point of the min raise instead of just shoving here as nobody's going to not look at your stack on the bubble on a ft. I agree it has merit in most spots but it's just a waste of time while multi tabling in this instance, imo.

[MC]

I don't really see the point of the min raise instead of just shoving here as nobody's going to not look at your stack on the bubble on a ft. I agree it has merit in most spots but it's just a waste of time while multi tabling in this instance, imo.

I think you're misguided here. There is no downside to making it 2400 instead of moving all-in. If it causes someone to fold who would have called had you moved all in even 1% of the time, then surely it is worth it. How much more difficult is it to make this raise as opposed to shoving?

[titaniumbean]

I like your chips and card mods!!

Would deffo put it in here, esp with green cards. Agree with the raise to x amount that isn't all in as any % of misclicks or mistakes is essentially good for us.